Apple Ends Stealth Safari Installs For Windows
Posted by Jonathan Cremin on 19 April 2008 - 10:33 · 44 comments & 16436 views
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(3 replies)
#1 Posted by Julius Caro on 19 Apr 2008 - 11:22
- It wasn't only Safari being installed when iTunes/quicktime were installed. iTunes would be installed too if only safari was installed.
I'm glad they changed it
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#1.1 Posted by Express on 19 Apr 2008 - 14:52
- But Apple software update is still installed even after you uncheck the option to not install it.
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#1.2 Posted by Shadrack on 19 Apr 2008 - 15:15
- (Express said @ #1.1)But Apple software update is still installed even after you uncheck the option to not install it.
STILL? For shame...
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#2 Posted by majortom1981 on 19 Apr 2008 - 11:27
- if you had quicktime installed if you didnt pay attention it would install itunes and safari . So i hope they change there itunes distro also.
Last edited by majortom1981 on 19 Apr 2008 - 13:27
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(4 replies)
#3 Posted by Quick Reply on 19 Apr 2008 - 11:31
- Safari is still ticked by default, and this mess won't be forgiven until it is off by default, or an active selection is required.
Apple are not willing to let it be off by default, because they have a desire to enter the browser market on the Windows Platform. The problem is that they probably shouldn't be attempting this until they have allowed their product to mature on the Windows platform (Refine the Windows UI in particular and the general browsing experiance by means of features) because their attempts to switch users is failing and leaving lasting impressions on how bad Safari on Windows is, even if Safari is a good on the Mac. -
#3.1 Posted by +Dakkaroth on 19 Apr 2008 - 14:06
- Couldn't agree with you more.
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#3.3 Posted by MulletRobZ on 20 Apr 2008 - 21:16
- Damn straight! That technique should have been outlawed, the same way Microsoft should not have been allowed to integrate Internet Explorer into Windows.
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(1 reply)
#4 Posted by evo_spook on 19 Apr 2008 - 11:35
- I agree, at the very least the check box should be defaulted to off.
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#4.1 Posted by QuarterSwede on 19 Apr 2008 - 17:08
- As much as I love Apple, I too have to agree.
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(5 replies)
#6 Posted by cork1958 on 19 Apr 2008 - 12:04
- Don't totally know what the issue is here. If you actually pay attention to what you're doing (I know that's real hard for some people) you can easily see what is about to be downloaded and installed!!
I do believe that it was kind of a dirty trick though to have the boxes checked by default. -
#6.1 Posted by chaosblade on 19 Apr 2008 - 12:23
- How many of the Windows user-base pay attention before clicking Next? That's why.
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#6.2 Posted by daPhoenix on 19 Apr 2008 - 13:18
- (cork1958 said @ #6)Don't totally know what the issue is here. If you actually pay attention to what you're doing (I know that's real hard for some people) you can easily see what is about to be downloaded and installed!!.
Like "Windows Genuine Advantage", eh? -
#6.3 Posted by JonathanMarston on 19 Apr 2008 - 15:46
- I can't speak from first-hand experience since I haven't tried it myself (I have no need for Apple's software on my PC), but my understanding of the problem from others' posts is that even if you left Safari unchecked during the initial installation of iTunes or Quicktime, the next time the auto-updater ran it would install it anyway...
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#6.4 Posted by MioTheGreat on 19 Apr 2008 - 16:53
- (daPhoenix said @ #6.2)Like "Windows Genuine Advantage", eh?
Well, to be fair, you can sort of consider that an update to the licensing components of Windows, and not a new piece of software. (I hate it too, btw) -
#6.5 Posted by nowimnothing on 19 Apr 2008 - 21:33
- I would say i generally agree with you - there should be some blame put on users who can't see whats written on the screen in front of their f'in face (the dialog clearly states that you're going to be installing safari...).
However, Apple should have made it unchecked by default so that you had to actively choose to install new software.
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(1 reply)
#7 Posted by Chicane-UK on 19 Apr 2008 - 12:21
- I still don't understand why Apple were ticking Safari by default. I suppose you could argue that Microsoft do the same thing (Windows Update on XP from a clean install, and IE7 is ticked by default) but then IE7 is an upgrade to an already installed product.
Come on Apple. I wish you wouldn't do crap like this. -
#7.1 Posted by chaosblade on 19 Apr 2008 - 12:25
- Well, It's obvious why. They want browser market share on Windows as well. The best way to get people to notice Safari is if they already have it installed.
Now, If Safari would have silently replaced the default handler for http and similar URI's.. That would have been even worse.
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(2 replies)
#8 Posted by LumpyCustard on 19 Apr 2008 - 13:43
- Lets look at this in general.
I would guess about half the users of IE use IE because it is the default and are ignorant of anything else on offer. About half of this group would not change the default options when updating Apple software, meaning less people will use IE in the future.
Is this such a bad thing? You only need to look at Acid 3 test results to find which browsers are more compliant, and which (IE) couldn't give a s***.
Also what infuriates me, is that while I have only Quicktime, I am always given the default option of installing iTunes on the updater.
Why can't they turn this off by default as well.
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#8.1 Posted by MioTheGreat on 19 Apr 2008 - 16:55
- Is this such a bad thing?
You say that like standards compliance is the only thing you should care about here.
Having an additional piece of software on your system, particularly one with Safari's wonderful track record on Windows, adds a potential security hole. Installing it by abusing the user's trust of the dialog is a malware practice, plain and simple.
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(3 replies)
#9 Posted by Titoist on 19 Apr 2008 - 14:43
- Its too late now.... Steve Jobs will stand up on the next macworld and declare that "millions" of people have downloaded and are using safari and that it is the "only true browser" that is "fast, safe", blah blah blah. Because of this, the mac fans will start talking and everyone else will start talking and the next thing u know, safari would of surpassed Opera and even Firefox in terms of downloads and usage. But neowiners will argue that this wont be... well in our minds it wont because we are the expirienced, knowledgable computer users... but let me remind you. THE GENERAL PUBLIC IS QUITE RETARDED!
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#9.1 Posted by Shadrack on 19 Apr 2008 - 15:19
- (Titoist said @ #9)Its too late now.... Steve Jobs will stand up on the next macworld and declare that "millions" of people have downloaded and are using safari and that it is the "only true browser" that is "fast, safe", blah blah blah.
Too true. -
#9.2 Posted by evo_spook on 19 Apr 2008 - 20:57
- (Titoist said @ #9)Because of this, the mac fans will start talking and everyone else will start talking and the next thing u know, safari would of surpassed Opera and even Firefox in terms of downloads and usage.
I think most Macusers on Neowin that have spoken don't agree with Apple on this issue. So please, theres no need to start bash users off any platform
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#9.3 Posted by C_Guy on 21 Apr 2008 - 16:18
- "Its too late now.... Steve Jobs will stand up on the next macworld and declare that "millions" of people have downloaded and are using safari and that it is the "only true browser" that is "fast, safe"
Dead on. However, I don't think the general public is "retarded", I think the media is manipulated by Steve to pass off Apple as holier-than-thou and ignorant people will buy it because "it must be true". It's no different than any other media manipulation that our world is saturated with.
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#10 Posted by hagjohn on 19 Apr 2008 - 20:49
- It's still checked and if I inadvertanly hit install (to install another item), then I'm installing something I don't really want.
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(4 replies)
#11 Posted by Hak Foo on 20 Apr 2008 - 00:34
- Stupid question: Why has Apple pumped so much time and effort into Safari/WebKit in general? If they need a browser, and since they haven't updated IE/Mac in like 200 years, why not offer the same amount of effort towards Mozilla and bundle Firefox with OS X?
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#11.1 Posted by LTD on 20 Apr 2008 - 01:13
- Firefox looks like ass and runs the same on OS X.
It is not a native app, and it's likely there will never be a native version.
Safari (on a Mac) is incredibly well done. Looks good, has excellent standards support, and is fast.
Apple pumps R&D money into Safari for the same reason it pumps R&D money into any project. It's all about the User Experience.
I can't speak for Apple software on Windows, however. It's really meant to shine on a Mac, in any case. -
#11.2 Posted by evo_spook on 20 Apr 2008 - 14:11
- (LTD said @ #11.1)Firefox looks like ass and runs the same on OS X.
It is not a native app, and it's likely there will never be a native version.
Safari (on a Mac) is incredibly well done. Looks good, has excellent standards support, and is fast.
Apple pumps R&D money into Safari for the same reason it pumps R&D money into any project. It's all about the User Experience.
I can't speak for Apple software on Windows, however. It's really meant to shine on a Mac, in any case.
I think Safari on windows has all to do with the iphone/itunes tie up. At first the only way to get an app on the iphone was through a webapp and to promote development they prob thought it best to start exporting to safari as that was the most integrated. -
#11.3 Posted by LaXu on 21 Apr 2008 - 09:46
- Firefox 3 betas seem to run just as fast as Safari on OSX. It seems that Safari is missing a lot of basic functionality people are used to in Firefox or Opera considering how long the feature lists of something like Saft are. Still, I don't mind having more choice in browsers as long as they're done well when it comes to standards support.
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#11.4 Posted by C_Guy on 21 Apr 2008 - 16:24
- "Firefox looks like ass and runs the same on OS X."
Ha ha ha, what? It looks exactly the same as Safari with these miniscule differences:
-The 'home' button is hidden by default
-You can't change your search provider
-No Status bar
-The "Find" bar appears at the top of the browser not the bottom.
Those tiny differences make one browser look like "ass" and one "shine"? Perhaps Mozilla should have put a nice shiny Apple somewhere on the interface. Unfortunately it's speed doesn't make up for it's "User Experience" which is why Mozilla made Firefox available for Mac in the first place.
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#12 Posted by ajua on 20 Apr 2008 - 00:57
- the checked by default still sucks.
not to mention the installer ignores the check box for installing software updater.
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(3 replies)
#13 Posted by TSThomas on 20 Apr 2008 - 10:59
- I've installed the Apple Software Update update... (iTunes / Quicktime were already at the latest version, so only Safari would appear)... so what happens when you check for updates?
Safari's still listed.
Safari's still ticked by default.
Safari's still never been installed on the PC.
Exactly what have Apple changed here? Nothing. It's still an opt-out.
How hard is this? Display only updates for the products you have installed & if you want to offer other software it should be unticked by default.
& that's not to mention other problems with the mandatory inclusion of Software Update. -
#13.1 Posted by HalcyonX12 on 20 Apr 2008 - 16:20
- Maybe now they're afraid to mess with your settings
Try a fresh install?
"The latest version of the Software Update tool for Windows, version 2.1.0.110, now clearly lists software that can be downloaded via the service and groups the updates into those for applications already on the user's computer and updates for new software. The new version of Software Update also gives users the ability to turn off the service." -
#13.2 Posted by TSThomas on 20 Apr 2008 - 16:49
- (HalcyonX12 said @ #13.1)Maybe now they're afraid to mess with your settings Try a fresh install?
"The latest version of the Software Update tool for Windows, version 2.1.0.110, now clearly lists software that can be downloaded via the service and groups the updates into those for applications already on the user's computer and updates for new software. The new version of Software Update also gives users the ability to turn off the service."
I've seen a few shots now of how it "should" work now But it's still ticked by default either way. WindowsUpdate also offers new software you don't currently have installed too, it doesn't automatically assume you want to install it.
Apple are taking advantage of the fact that most PC users are idiots (To put it bluntly). -
#13.3 Posted by HalcyonX12 on 21 Apr 2008 - 02:10
- Yeah but where's the surprise? Name one "free" commercial app that hasn't eventually evolved to try to push its defaults or branding or usurp your preferred software? It's not just Apple. There should be clear expectations of what a single app is and what it can do to your system.
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#14 Posted by +shihchiun on 20 Apr 2008 - 15:02
- Too bad I've already gotten rid of iTunes and Quicktime.
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(1 reply)
#15 Posted by +macf13nd on 20 Apr 2008 - 16:40
- all this being said, how many programs do you download and install that have an 'opt-out' "Free toolbar!!!111one1!" that you have to uncheck? It should now have become standard practice to check first before clicking next.
I always check through my installations (not that thoroughly mind, but enough to make sure I don't have a shortcut placed in my quicklaunch or on my desktop.)
You can see why they did it, I don't think it quite qualifies as a malware practice, but it is irritating. -
#15.1 Posted by Joel on 20 Apr 2008 - 17:03
- (macf13nd said @ #15)all this being said, how many programs do you download and install that have an 'opt-out' "Free toolbar!!!111one1!" that you have to uncheck? It should now have become standard practice to check first before clicking next.
I always check through my installations (not that thoroughly mind, but enough to make sure I don't have a shortcut placed in my quicklaunch or on my desktop.)
You can see why they did it, I don't think it quite qualifies as a malware practice, but it is irritating.
The difference is that it's not an new installer that tries to install Safari, like it is when you see the Google, Yahoo! and other toolbars. It's an updater updating a non-existent component, which is not an upgrade at all, is it?
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#16 Posted by epple on 22 Apr 2008 - 14:14
- Now, if we only could choose not to have QuickTime Player installed when installing iTunes.
The new version of Software Update also gives users the ability to turn off the service.
In modifying Software Update, Apple was clearly responding to widespread criticism that the service downloaded Safari 3.1 onto users' systems surreptitiously. The company included the browser as a stealth update for users of the Microsoft (NSDQ: MSFT) Windows versions of its iTunes and QuickTime software. Mozilla CEO John Lilly likened the strategy to tactics used by hackers to insert malicious code into downloads.
"Apple has made it incredibly easy -- the default, even -- for users to install ride along software that they didn't ask for, and maybe didn't want," said Lilly, in a recent blog post. "This is wrong, and borders on malware distribution practices."