Apple has come out swinging, or at least Brian Croll, Vice President of Apple's Mac OS X worldwide product marketing has when it comes to the new offerings from Microsoft.Croll states that "Windows users are really tired of all the headaches that they've been getting over the years, starting all the way back from Windows Me to NT to Vista and now Windows 7," he said. "As a result, I think people are looking for something different, and the Mac offers real ease of use, stability and security."
In his defense, Apple did just release their quarterly earnings which do backup some of his statements. In Q3 (July to the end of September) Apple had its best quarter ever for Mac sales; this would indicate that more users are switching to OS X than keeping Windows.
Croll did not stop there; he went on to say that "Windows 7 is still just Windows. It doesn't change a lot. It's still complex, it's still really expensive when you look at the cost of the upgrade, and there's still security concerns," he said.
"It also still requires a lot of assembly. It turns out when you get Windows 7 it doesn't even have some of the basic applications like mail or chat, or programs to manage your photos. You actually have to go and find them and download them."
The irony, in his second statement, is that if Microsoft were to include such applications they would come under fire for anti-competitive practices. The latest issues over including IE 8 as the default web browser can attest to Microsoft's lack of inclusion of such programs.
There is more mud slinging over at telegraph.co.uk but can you blame Apple for being a bit nervous? When Vista launched it had a negative public perception that Apple was able to use to its advantage. Apple recently announced some product refreshes and a new mouse two days before the Windows 7 launch. Shortly after the Windows 7 launch, Apple released three new "I'm a Mac" adverts targeted at Windows 7. Now that Windows 7 has launched and is receiving public praise, what will Apple's new strategy be?
Lol. I haven't seen Apple releasing so many press releases of late that too bashing windows in every possible way.
because they know theyve been beaten
in terms of value a mac will NEVER compare
they know they the fanboys will pay anythin just to please apple
Apple could easily compete with Windows if it would put Mac on PCs.
A lot of security concerns? LOL!! This coming from a platform that has shown to be easily hacked and in fact the least secure platform available (the first to get hacked if memory serves). And expensive? Has this guy priced out a Mac lately?
Wow Apple. You're getting desperate and it's showing.
Apple could easily compete with Windows if it would put Mac on PCs.
Nope. The days od competing with Windows on generic boxes are gone. Apple's current business model works too well. It has rendered Apple recession-proof and has been a lesson to the rest of corporate America. Apple owns the Premium market. They aint leaving it.
Apple could easily compete with Windows if it would put Mac on PCs.
But then OS X would have to run on a plethora of different system configurations, Windows 7 already beats it when they're designing it for specific hardware... I can't imagining expanding the hardware base to a great idea.
True!
Apple's not scared! They are correct - I am tired of all the headaches as well.
FYI to grammar Nazi's out there, criticize is spelt criticise in Australia. We take out the z's and replace them with the s's.
in terms of value a mac will NEVER compare
they know they the fanboys will pay anythin just to please apple
Nobody ever seems to think that perhaps those who buy Apple products buy them because they're actually not bad. I don't know a single person who buys their hardware and software just because Apple made it. Not one.
in terms of value a mac will NEVER compare
they know they the fanboys will pay anythin just to please apple
Nobody ever seems to think that perhaps those who buy Apple products buy them because they're actually not bad. I don't know a single person who buys their hardware and software just because Apple made it. Not one.
I do - Every single person that i know who owns a mac, bought it because Apple made it.
in terms of value a mac will NEVER compare
they know they the fanboys will pay anythin just to please apple
Nobody ever seems to think that perhaps those who buy Apple products buy them because they're actually not bad. I don't know a single person who buys their hardware and software just because Apple made it. Not one.
The problem is Apple is spreading this myth that their hardware is more problem free than others. This is just not true. I have many friends (myself included) who have bought Apple hardware and have had problems with it. My DVD Rom in my Mac Mini died in just over a year, a friend has a MacBook Pro and the screen went crazy, and another friends MacBook doesn't boot anymore.
That's a pretty high failure rate out of the people I know who have Apple hardware. Their failure rates aren't any better than any others, and their hardware isn't better quality because it comes in a white shinny package.
If you like OS X (I know I do), then that is the only real reason to get a Mac IMHO. You will be paying extra for that privilege, so Apple saying Windows is expensive is full of themselves. The hardware will be, by no means, superior... it will just be white and shinny.
Apple could easily compete with Windows if it would put Mac on PCs.
Nope. The days od competing with Windows on generic boxes are gone. Apple's current business model works too well. It has rendered Apple recession-proof and has been a lesson to the rest of corporate America. Apple owns the Premium market. They aint leaving it.
Er, if by premium you mean over priced and under valued, sure.
Two words: "Operator. Error." Well, lets make it four and add in "Cheap. Hardware."
Apple could easily compete with Windows if it would put Mac on PCs.
Nope. The days od competing with Windows on generic boxes are gone. Apple's current business model works too well. It has rendered Apple recession-proof and has been a lesson to the rest of corporate America. Apple owns the Premium market. They aint leaving it.
You're right. MS is copying Apple stores and trying its best to catch up to the iPhone. It's just ridiculous that their execs practiced denial as a solution to Apple's growth instead of trying to beat them at their own game.
Apple could easily compete with Windows if it would put Mac on PCs.
Nope. The days od competing with Windows on generic boxes are gone. Apple's current business model works too well. It has rendered Apple recession-proof and has been a lesson to the rest of corporate America. Apple owns the Premium market. They aint leaving it.
Seriously? It certainly wasn't Apples computer leg that made it a cash cow, if they had not created the Ipod, then Iphone, they would not have the cash they have today. To assume their computers have allowed them to be "recession proof" and "own"-ing the premium market if naive at best LOL.
Guess what that 'next great thing' was? Two guesses, and chances are you know at least half a dozen people that own one. Apple is a gadget manufacturer. Their PC line is insignifigant and an afterthought, and the iSheep eat it up and ask for seconds.
Apple could easily compete with Windows if it would put Mac on PCs.
But they make their dollars from Mac hardware, not the software.
You don't buy a Mac for OS X, you buy it for the experience.
Apple doesn't really want to be a "giant" like Microsoft. They have their niche markets and they make a lot of money from those markets. If Apple had the popularity of Microsoft they would be faced with countless anti-trust, security and compliance issues.
And I'm not a Windows fanboy, I've been using OS X for the past few years.
That's the original spelling in the language. Only americans change the -s in most verbs to a -z. India, Britain, Australia, and most other english speaking nations follow the british english spellings.
I think I just puked a little.
in terms of value a mac will NEVER compare
they know they the fanboys will pay anythin just to please apple
Nobody ever seems to think that perhaps those who buy Apple products buy them because they're actually not bad. I don't know a single person who buys their hardware and software just because Apple made it. Not one.
I do - Every single person that i know who owns a mac, bought it because Apple made it.
I know people like that too, but there isn't anything wrong with it, it just means that Apple has a very strong brand. Can you honestly say that you research every single thing you buy? I doubt it. There are probably companies that you trust and are likely to buy from even if there isn’t a compelling reason for that specific product. For me Canon is a good example, I haven’t bought anything but a Canon camera in 10 years, I have gotten to the point where I don’t even look at other brands, I just get whatever item in Canon’s lineup that looks like a good fit for me. How many people feel that way about cars? About sports teams? About political parties? I find nothing dishonest about people who like Apple just because it is Apple. (PS: and for the record, I am on the opposite side of the fence, I don’t like Apple just because it is Apple and avoid buying their products, like the iPod, even when they seem to be the best fit)
in terms of value a mac will NEVER compare
they know they the fanboys will pay anythin just to please apple
Nobody ever seems to think that perhaps those who buy Apple products buy them because they're actually not bad. I don't know a single person who buys their hardware and software just because Apple made it. Not one.
I do - Every single person that i know who owns a mac, bought it because Apple made it.
I pressume u mean the chasis. Because other than that its a PC component well overprised.
There is no value on a MAC apart from the design. Unless of course if you try to compare the OS-X with Windows.
Can you compare two different products? (It's like comparing a tomato and a potato if you get it).
I know many Mac users who still use Windows because they have no other option.
Personally Windows work great for me and this is all i need. And Windows 7 are WOW (for me at least).
revamped GUI? I've seen iTunes go through said "revamp GUI" changes, and it still looks the same.
well i meant they revamped the GUI by adding 3D acceleration and getting rid of the old "box" and line title bar
OSX was actually the progression of the NeXT OS, not OS1-9. In fact, OS X broke a lot of compatibility with stuff that worked with the previous OSes.
That is an understatement, OS X is a different OS all together. Switching from OS 9 to OS X was about as painful as switching from Windows to Mac. No existing software or hardware worked at all unless you booted into classic mode, it was like starting from scratch. Having said that it was a good direction for Apple to go, the old "classic" OS was horrible, in many ways worse than the Windows 9x product line. Despite everything people have said about Vista it is FAR more compatible with older software/hardware than OS X 10.0 was. That was then this is now, OS X is a solid OS with a good user interface and has pretty good compatibility from version to version.
Pretty much. The OS upgrades do cost more than Snow Leopard upgrades or whatever but by locking their OS to only their boutique hardware you end up paying much more for the same internals. The whole point of Apple is that if you want a high-end form factor and would gladly trade vendor lock-in for the added stability of a small hardware base, you pay extra for that. If you would rather just learn some common sense practices and put the extra cash into a faster CPU or more RAM, you can build or buy another brand.
Calling out Windows for being more expensive of a platform is as stupid as when Microsoft just came out with an ad making fun of Apple's App Store. You just don't attack your competitors on their strengths. It makes you look like a chump.
I can buy two computers for the price of a mac, and they will still perform AS WELL as a mac.
Apple products, for the most part, are for SNOBS
Uhhh.... The new iMacs have Core i5 and i7 options as well as the Mac Pro, no doubt the MBP's will next revision also.
Well said. Apple is definitely going for the "chump" image these days it will seem. I've yet to see an ad on why I should use Snow Leopard because feature x is really really awesome. Just this whole "windows sucks" campaign that windows users really don't buy. Seems to be just a lot of cheer leading for their inner circle of fanboys.
MS software is the most expensive out there. But that wont last long when windows 7 fails like vista did
Calling out Windows for being more expensive of a platform is as stupid as when Microsoft just came out with an ad making fun of Apple's App Store. You just don't attack your competitors on their strengths. It makes you look like a chump.
Apple's OS has always cost a little less than Windows, but when they pop out a new version about every year which one really costs more?
Dude, you don't know what you are talking about. Vista didn't fail and neither with Windows 7. It is all about perception. Under the covers they are the same OS, Windows 7 got a minor face lift. The difference is that Vista failed in public opinion and Windows 7 has not. Anything you read about Vista not being a good OS has to do with some third party hardware or software not running correctly on it. Who’s fault is that really? Venders where not fast enough to add support for Vista…but after a few years they have caught up and Vista works perfectly fine, now MS releases it again under a new name and everyone loves it, you do the math.
And to think that those same people complain that Windows is too bloated when it DOES come with that stuff.
Yeah...just a calculator. You're obviously trolling because that is certainly not the case.
Personally I can't imagine losing support for all my hardware or praying emulation will get my professional video production software and games working just to save $99 at newegg for a copy of Windows. Win7 works on all of my machines out of the box and does everything I ask of it. The same can not be said for any version of Linux I've tried and to me it's worth paying for something that works and makes me productive.
More than 20% of OS X users can't even run Windows (Power PC) so just no. Also you pulled that 80% stat out of your backside.
http://brainstormtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...ve-windows-too/
However, you can interpret that as a Mac 'convert' keeping their old Windows machines tucked away somewhere, yet they still contribute to that 85% figure.
I also remember seeing this statistic. Perhaps it's 80% of Intel OS X users also run Windows.
I think he's referring to this article.
http://www.neowin.net/news/main/09/10/09/8...ave-windows-too
It's not that they run windows on the same machine, it's that they have a windows machine also.
80%? Where did you magically pull that figure from. I highly doubt that's true.
Read neowin dude!
If Apple were as big as Microsoft in the desktop OS market, they'd suffer from the same issue MS face each day (delayed releases, out of date products and not being able to give every user what they want). They both have a place in this world, but Apple will never, ever oust MS from the desktop/server OS game.
BTW, who is Bill and Who is Brian?
The point is, Windows 7 is more simple and is in the right direction. Little things like the removal of Dreamscenes, and the default "no gadgets" on the desktop show this. However, it is becoming a more bare bones OS rather than, install and do all this fun stuff OS. That is the part that stinks.
Wow, i started this post when there was only one post up there.
it is windows extra
They never seem to mention how many apps break whenever they release a new OS version. It's as if backwards compatibility is something to be avoided.
They never seem to mention how many apps break whenever they release a new OS version. It's as if backwards compatibility is something to be avoided.
I really hope the "Windows 7" Family guy really takes some good shots at Apple
We offer a better product because we say so
Microsoft sucks because it doesn't have integrated apps
Microsoft then adds integrated apps... Apple (and everyone else): OMG they're abusing their monopoly, quick get a government to stop them!
These types of statements are pathetic, but then they also have to be made to show that a company isn't scared
Couldn't agree more
More bashing and miths about security
Last edited by dotf on 27 Oct 2009 - 03:29
Pre-order numbers for Windows 7 are higher than those of Windows XP and Vista combined. No, not a success at all...
And good job on picking an isolated example regarding boot time. My machine definitely boots up faster than XP or Vista. So I must be either extremely lucky then. Just as I seem to be extremely lucky to not have had security issues for years and extremely lucky to have been without all the headaches Apple seems to suggest I am suffering from.
Well aside from starting up quicker, running apps quicker and being far more appealing than either of your given alternatives - i totally agree!
Good god.
Oh look, you used the service pack argument. Great job in using that never heard before FUD argument. You're just a couple of months late.
Surely, the same can't be said about OSX 10.0 through snow leopard.
So, this will finally be the year Linux takes over the desktop huh? Damn, when did I hear that before? Oh right, every year!
I would point out the irony here, but facts tend to sail over the heads of Linux users.
OS X is nowhere near 10%. If you're gonna pull numbers out of your ass, at least come up with some real ones.
I'm pretty sure 'fact' is beyond his scope of understanding.
Yeah but Vista was a complete rebuild... Hell, Win7 can even use Vista drivers, I can't see the general public having a similar experience this time round.
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:34
No we did not, everyone was bashing vista for the sake of bashing it. 90% of people who were had never even used it either...
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:34
This is just stupidity at its finest. The reaction to 7 is overwhelmingly positive.
There is rather a lot, apparently, that you're not aware of - especially when it comes to sales figures for pre-orders, or even basic facts about Windows 7.
Linux is a good operating system?
Apple saying others are expensive???????????????? YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING ME!!!!!! PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!
Apple just look at your prices and shut the f#@& up!!!!!!
LOL. Reading this I got an image in my head of someone laterally pushing their head from side to side while waving a finger in my face.
Why?
Substantiate, troll
Substantiate, troll
Microsoft software is more expensive. Compare the prices for desktop and server versions of each companies current OS. Compare their office package prices.
In terms of hardware they aren't all that comparable directly. However comparing Apple to other equivalent computer manufacturers, then yes, Apple prove more expensive in terms of hardware prices.
Now I suggest Apple get THEIR act together and start fixing their own damn problems, they've got more than enough.
Oh, and I think they even start getting on the nerves of true Apple customers this way. Act professional and seriously get rid of those I'm a Mac ads, *vomit*.
Windows is made to work with any PC on the market.
Can the same be said for OSX?
Same as iPhone OS vs Windows Mobile. Apple 3 phones based on the same stuff vs x amount of windows mobiles.
M$ support a more global market compared to Apples limited setups.
Yea, advantage for OSX. Lets see, I want to use the latest OSX so I have to pay thousands for a new machine...
Record quarters because of vanity-item media players. Their PC sales can nearly always be attributed to the returning customers/fans that have to have their new iAppliance. Don't kid yourself.
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:34
http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index.php/Vmware_how_to
http://pcwizcomputer.com/index.php?Itemid=...ntent&task=view
http://www.insanelymac.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=118663
http://pearpc.sourceforge.net/
http://mac-on-linux.sourceforge.net/
As for iPhone OS, yes, it cannot be run under other smartphones or PDAs with different specifications. There exists a iPhone emulator, which comes with the iPhone SDK, but is intended to be used by developers, and only works on Mac OS X. But for your information iPhone OS is actually an very stripped down version of Mac OS X as it have the same kernel and core components, but with some architectural modifications.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FwLdWCUrHg
I'd agree. I mean, they have a hard enough time getting it to work with the hardware they use already lol...
And most of the prebuilt PC components are junk. I'd rather build my own, or get a Mac.
Or just upgrade the OS?
..good, nice that you have the choice - legally - to do so isn't it?
BUUUUUUURRRRRN!
That is probably because you have no idea of what malware is.
I think you mean Brian there....
lol yeh I read it and I was like wait what?
Mac users probably creamed themselves when they saw that...sadly it was wasted.
I hope you're joking. Microsoft has the worst security record in history. And it also takes the longest to patch critical exploits. I've never heard such a blatantly preposterous statement.
Linux has the largest webserver marketshare, yet windows servers are the only ones to get compromised. Care to explain this?
Plus microsoft comes out and admits when theres a bug, and acknowledges that they're fixing it. Unlike apple who usually makes no comment, and sneaks out a hidden fix.
They have been saying this about Win7 since before it was released. Sad Apple...cannot market yourselves based on your own products and what they can do. Instead, you bash the competition. ONLY WAY Apple can do anything.
The problem is that it's inaccurate marketing. If you read the posts here you can see that. They are not the most secure. They are very expensive. Windows users are not unhappy. Etc, etc, etc. It's Apple propaganda and to those of us that know the truth, it's irritating.
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:35
Tell that to all the vista users out there.
I've used Vista plenty. It's fine. Sorry to disappoint you, open source boy.
I could just see them over at Apple all standing around a Logitech MX Revolution mouse, afraid to touch it. "What is this thing? Why does it have so many buttons? What is that wheelie thingy-ma-jigger?"
I know where you're going with this, but the way you worded it says precisely indicates that more users are leaving Windows to buy Mac than are staying with (or upgrading to) Windows (7)... if that were the case, Mac would have 50+ % market share overnight... which just isn't going to happen. Be more careful about how you word your articles.
I hate the lies and half truths Apple is spewing from every pour.
Macs are growing their marketshare by 30% a year, how much is windows growing its marketshare?
Pretty well, given that a lot of those macs end up running Windows too - salient point this: MS doesn't make PCs, just the OS for it. A Mac sale doesn't always equate to a loss for MS - to them it's just another PC which can run Windows too..
In addition the "move over to Windows 7" has changed the tactics from indicating away from Windows 7 is "bad" also is a sign that can also be interrupted is windows 7 is good. (The bunch line being if your going to move, move to Mac instead).
I like both, MS seems to have got it right and if Apple keep the playing the same record they will end up on their arse.
By them using those tactics there goes me getting a mac. I was really thinking about getting one but not anymore. I am not buying anything from a company that would stoop so low.
The only reason why apples marketing is successfull is because microsoft is not retaliating. If they did apple would be in trouble considering hlaf of the i am a mac ads have nothing but lies in them.
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:36
You mean like the recent ads Microsoft put out that had Apple running crying to their lawyers?
Apple is like that little obnoxious kid everyone knew at school, that was a real douchebag. So he'd say and do whatever he wanted, and when anyone retaliated or went to pound his ass, he'd run crying saying he was being picked on.
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:36
And yes, Apple does thrive on negative marketing. If only everyone else's sad attempts at marketing could be so ssuccessful.
You mean like the recent ads Microsoft put out that had Apple running crying to their lawyers?
Apple is like that little obnoxious kid everyone knew at school, that was a real douchebag. So he'd say and do whatever he wanted, and when anyone retaliated or went to pound his ass, he'd run crying saying he was being picked on.
You mean those recent ads which obviously had NO impact because Apple sold more computers than ever?
(snipped)
You mean like the recent ads Microsoft put out that had Apple running crying to their lawyers?
Apple is like that little obnoxious kid everyone knew at school, that was a real douchebag. So he'd say and do whatever he wanted, and when anyone retaliated or went to pound his ass, he'd run crying saying he was being picked on.
You mean those recent ads which obviously had NO impact because Apple sold more computers than ever?
And now we'll watch those sales *plummet*, since most (sane) people were waiting to buy a new PC until Windows 7 launched. And still, of the three lines, iPod, iPhone and PC systems...their PC sales were the lowest of the three. A computer company, being held afloat due to gadget sales.
LOL
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:36
LOL
So, PMP's are the in thing right now, and Apple owns that sector.
Also, a lot of people were/are also waiting on the iMac/MBP/macbook updates. I'm sure this christmas quarter will be even more amazing for Apple, especially with the new product lineup.
Also, a lot of people were/are also waiting on the iMac/MBP/macbook updates. I'm sure this christmas quarter will be even more amazing for Apple, especially with the new product lineup.
You must be easily amazed. Speed bumps and minor hardware updates aren't 'amazing'.
Also, a lot of people were/are also waiting on the iMac/MBP/macbook updates. I'm sure this christmas quarter will be even more amazing for Apple, especially with the new product lineup.
You must be easily amazed. Speed bumps and minor hardware updates aren't 'amazing'.
No comprehension skills I see?
I said the next quarter will be amazing for Apple, where did I say I was amazed?
The new products will no doubt spur a spending spree this christmas season, since they are now faster and sleeker than ever.
But that won't stop you from being blind to Apples current success.
But that won't stop you from being blind to Apples current success.
But of course, microsoft releasing a successful product doesn't stop you and all other macfans from being blind to microsoft current success.
Any fool can see that apple is scared ****less. Because all they have to offer, is a few hardware upgrades (nothing major either), a failure of an OS launch (snow leopard), and um 3 ads to bash microsoft with. So apple does what apple does best, turn on the RFD and start spewing crap out.
But that won't stop you from being blind to Apples current success.
But of course, microsoft releasing a successful product doesn't stop you and all other macfans from being blind to microsoft current success.
Are you stalking my comments?
Where, anywhere, have I denied MS of any success?
It's blatantly obvious now, you're just a troll.
But that won't stop you from being blind to Apples current success.
But of course, microsoft releasing a successful product doesn't stop you and all other macfans from being blind to microsoft current success.
Are you stalking my comments?
Where, anywhere, have I denied MS of any success?
It's blatantly obvious now, you're just a troll.
Some people cannot comprehend defending Apple without resorting to defaming Microsoft. Even if you make no such comments, they will fabricate them in their minds.
You mean like the recent ads Microsoft put out that had Apple running crying to their lawyers?
Apple is like that little obnoxious kid everyone knew at school, that was a real douchebag. So he'd say and do whatever he wanted, and when anyone retaliated or went to pound his ass, he'd run crying saying he was being picked on.
absolutely right. Come on grow up Apple.
Thanks Apple, for speaking out for all the Windows users around the world. You've also contributed greatly to the endless flame-wars in practically every single internet forum that has ever existed.
If you are truly innovative, please extend that innovativity to your 'I'm A Mac' adverts and actually tell us something about Macs as I really don't fancy reading through 500 plus pages of such forum-pages just to find out exactly what is so great about Macs.
If OSX could actually install and run on my PC straight from the box then I'd be more willing to give it a go but as it stands, the entry fee to the Macniverse is too high.
playing the cost card only shows that that "Brian Croll" guy never bought a mac himself and probably doesn't know that his company has been ripping off technology illiterate users for years and years...
this is pathetic yet kind of funny...
Are you a laptop or a desktop? Or one of those trendy netbooks?
http://www.freewebs.com/amunracattery/kissyjan7.jpg
http://www.freewebs.com/amunracattery/kissyjan7.jpg
+1
Also, how is Windows complex, anyway?
Really? You think that? Just thinking a thing doesn't make it so. Don't you mean 'I wish people were looking for something different. And how many Windows users have you talked to that are 'really tired of all the headaches' over the years. He acts like operating systems are giving people nervous breakdowns and just ruining their lives and they've had enough. Frankly, on the release of Microsoft's best operating system since Windows 2000, this is the wrong time to start this kind of mudslinging. Maybe you should change your name from Brian Croll to Brian Troll. It's more appropriate really.
Must be hard increasing miniscule numbers. (snipped)
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:37
No Apple has the trend seeking techno-morons nailed.
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:37
I'm sure they'll spin something else to attack Windows though and not promote their features (some of which are great). Turn lemonade into a lemon, for a company full of hippies they sure are negative.
lol @ internet explorer as default browser
Last edited by C_Guy on 26 Oct 2009 - 18:22
lol @ the reaction of the crowd. So typical of the clapping cattle at Apple's keynotes.
Security? Well atleast Windows doesn't delete all your data when you log into a guest account.
Hardly smart. As already stated, they look like a big bunch of adolescent crybabies.
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:37
Sure, they play hardball, as long as no one plays back. The it's crying-to-the-lawyers time.
Last edited by GreyWolfSC on 26 Oct 2009 - 21:37
Oh yea, sorry to break it to you dude, but Microsoft is not Apple, it does not shove down your throat one application to use, it opens up the user's choice, to choose whatever mail client or chat client they want.
Sooo, I suggest you do the same *Looks at the iPhone*
30 for windows 7, and 38 for office ultimate
gotta love student discount
+1, and Windows 7 has the most Significant GUI update of any OS since the Windows 3.1 > Windows 95 Change... and sorry Fanboys, but Mac OS X's little bar at the bottom just doesn't match up.
Since we're all for worthless opinions, hold on while I ask my garbage man his opinions on quantum mechanics...
I was gonna call you "LTD 2", but that would be a clap in the face to LTD.
Microsoft never had to be better than Apple to pose a risk ... they just had to be as good, which they now are. Apple has used their OS as a way to sell their hardware at a premium. If people can buy equivalent hardware at half the price but with an OS that is just as good as OSX, then Apple's business model is now at risk. They have to fight tooth and nail to try to put Windows 7 down in their ads. I don't think they'll succeed, and their future quarterly profits will show that.
Now Mac OS X is not apple, its orange !!
Funny that Apple gives Windows a hard time over hardware compatibility. Must be easy to throw that stone when you won't let anyone use anything but your own hardware.
Funny that Apple thinks they'll dethrone Windows, yet you can't run MacOS on milling machines, printing presses, carPCs, and many other unconventional systems.
And its funny to think that ANYONE expects any OS to come out without any bugs, ever.
Apple is no different. They are terrified and this is a last-ditch act of desperation to make the Pro-Apple-And-Anti-Microsoft people feel better about choosing OS X. The more Apple talks about Windows the more obvious it is that it deserves to be in the spotlight. Keep it up Apple.
kthxbye
I'm sure a lot of people are getting tired of Apple's tactics. They need to innovate. Windows 7 is freaking awesome. And I can't wait till my employers move their servers and all the computers on to it.
I'm assuming Apple must be scared, because they have been pumping out their BS a lot lately. They are also making a fool of themselves with those stupid ads. Its bad enough they are all lies, they are also reruns of the same BS. I get so I end up turning the channel whenever its on because I'm so sick of seeing it.
I see some here are posting the same BS. Obviously Apple fanboys.
do not put words in my mouth Apple , you know nothing.
stay in the corner with your over priced branded linux distro lmao
"I downloaded Win 7 Ultimate x64 last night. I made the mistake of saving my activation key to my desktop expecting an email containing it that I never received. Since I cannot get to the desktop and have no email I'm stuck on the Activation Key screen. I've been on hold for almost an hour waiting to speak to a human."
Yeah, I'd say that is human error. Not to mention, the Apple forums are just chock full of people having all sorts of fun upgrading their OS X installs. But since the world at large doesn't give a flaming **** about Apple computers, no one is talking about it. Now say, if Apple put out some exploding iPods...*that* would be news-worthy...amiright?
*edit*
Jesus christ, did you actually read that thread, and see what those people are trying to do? No wonder the install is getting borked. Some of that was just -retarded-. Not to mention, a few people referenced the Mac ads in the threads I read...so couldn't be...say...obsessive Apple fans trying to stir up a mess. Naaah....
Last edited by Mega Goatlord on 26 Oct 2009 - 19:46
Microsoft says it quite clearly on the website too
No. If you are currently running a 32-bit version of Windows, you can only perform an upgrade to another 32-bit version of Windows. Similarly, if you are running a 64-bit version of Windows Vista, you can only perform an upgrade to another 64-bit version of Windows Vista.
Don't blame microsoft because people are too stupid to spend 5mins reading the information
I call BS. IF it was an upgrade version, he will still be able to access his vista desktop. All he would have to do was restart.
If it wasn't and he wiped his OS clean, whos the idiot for saving the key on a desktop you were going to wipe clean. Yet again it clearly says this will be the only copy of the cd key you will receive.
I see a common trend here, people not BOTHERING to read even if its bold and red ink they like to click next as fast as possible
Last edited by /- Razorfold on 26 Oct 2009 - 20:13
Not sure if it is the same for retail as i have not downloaded, but the RC & Beta download pages both specifically suggested you to print out a copy of the key prior for safekeeping. Can't imagine MS would neglect to put something as simple and effective (usually) as that in the retail download process.
Now Windows 7 is a really good OS. It's nothing like Vista. Vista even on good computers was not a lot of fun. But Windows 7 works on any machine. It just works without any problems at all. Its perfect
i work at a computer repair center and we also sell the one or the other mac (but mostly PCs)... all of the macs we have sold so far, new iMacs or Macbook air have come back because of some kind of defect... mostly bad harddrives.... or the OS isnt starting because the super OS always forgets from what boot device it is supposed to start... PLUS replacing the hdd is a major pain in the butt on these stupid devices...
the people at apple can say what they want... their software is no bit better then any other software, and the only positive thing about the hardware is that it might look better for some people...
just my 2 cents!
i work at a computer repair center and we also sell the one or the other mac (but mostly PCs)... all of the macs we have sold so far, new iMacs or Macbook air have come back because of some kind of defect... mostly bad harddrives.... or the OS isnt starting because the super OS always forgets from what boot device it is supposed to start... PLUS replacing the hdd is a major pain in the butt on these stupid devices...
the people at apple can say what they want... their software is no bit better then any other software, and the only positive thing about the hardware is that it might look better for some people...
just my 2 cents!
+1
isnt that because all 3rd party developers and moste the EU have sued MS because they bundled/preinstalled their OS with exactly those tools (mail clients, messengers, and webbrowser)??? maybe all MS supporters should start sueing Apple & Co for bundling their software with tools as well!
isnt that because all 3rd party developers and moste the EU have sued MS because they bundled/preinstalled their OS with exactly those tools (mail clients, messengers, and webbrowser)??? maybe all MS supporters should start sueing Apple & Co for bundling their software with tools as well!
Apple is getting sued...by Nokia for stealing and not paying for things used in the iPhone. Apple is getting theirs...slowly but surly.
Apples ads will end up kicking them in the ass. Their latest ads that are slamming Win7 BEFORE IT WAS EVEN released. They make claims its the same old OS and people dont like Win7 even before it is released to the public and before people can actually use it to give their own opinion. Apple is speaking for the people and spewing out false information. Did everyone forget that Apple was the first Os to be hacked for a few years in a row? But yet, they claim its the most secure OS.
Windows 7 may look like a minor upgrade but its much more steamlined and quicker than vista was. It also has a TON more functionality than vista did. Seems Apple is just looking at the OS and making a statement than actually using it and then making a statement. Guess what Apple, SL is just L with a new version number stamped on it. See how easy it is to make a statement like that?
Apple is an arrogant company that is full of **** and desperation. Their latest ads PROVE this. They make false claims left and right and MS just takes it. Yet, when MS makes claims that are not true about Apple, Apple bitches and moans like a little school girl until MS buckles and makes changes.
I cannot wait until the day that Apple gets nailed with malware/viruses. I will be the one laughing my ass off when users have no antivirus/antimalware to protect their systems. But hey, this is why people buy the ever so coveted AppleCare I guess....
And I will say it again, Apple cannot market themselves on their products alone. Instead, they bash the competition and tell us nothing about what they have to offer. Unlike MS where they can stay positive, not slam anyone, and still come out on top. There is a reason why people pay $120 for an upgrade...because MS markets their software and tells users what it can do. Apple has to drop their SL price to $30 just to get people to buy it.
And look at the Mac vs PC ads and tell me which one your company would hire. A hippy that is probably high on something, or a professional.
If you buy mac os X you also need to buy an apple pc because you may not run it's os on non apple hardware.
I'm a PC, stupid apple
If you buy mac os X you also need to buy an apple pc because you may not run it's os on non apple hardware.
I'm a PC, stupid apple
Forget to mention that Windows 7 can run on much older computers. OSX cannot and you have to upgrade your hardware. This was the main bitch people had with Vista...which MS corrected in 7.
Hollywood - it's called 'product placement'. Apple pays to have their products seen.
Schools - Apple give a decent discount to schools...which is nice and all, except for the fact that the machines are usually garbage and give the kids no practical experience in the real world.
You done making yourself look silly yet?
Schools - Apple give a decent discount to schools...which is nice and all, except for the fact that the machines are usually garbage and give the kids no practical experience in the real world.
You done making yourself look silly yet?
Good point. Why you see Macs in movies and TV shows all the time. They pay for it. MS gives good student discounts on software as well.
If you buy mac os X you also need to buy an apple pc because you may not run it's os on non apple hardware.
I'm a PC, stupid apple
Forget to mention that Windows 7 can run on much older computers. OSX cannot and you have to upgrade your hardware. This was the main bitch people had with Vista...which MS corrected in 7.
Snow leopard made my almost 4 year old computer like-new again.
PPC is over 5 years old now, I'd like to see a five year old PC run 7 without lag. So it makes sense that companies remove support for outdated computers.
In other words I don't blame MS if 7 runs like **** on older comps, and I don't blame apple for dropping old arch.
Done countless number of times, check the forums, use google, etc etc etc
PPC is over 5 years old now, I'd like to see a five year old PC run 7 without lag. So it makes sense that companies remove support for outdated computers.
In other words I don't blame MS if 7 runs like **** on older comps, and I don't blame apple for dropping old arch.
Would you be content if I showed you Win7 running on a netbook with a gig of ram, with full Aero effects enabled? Snow Leopard probably made a lot of older systems run like brand new, once people had to start doing clean installs from all their data being deleted. Btw, hows that fix working out. Oh, wait...they haven't released an official patch yet? Two weeks, and an issue where users are accidently wiping out all their files, and Apple are still 'working on a fix'? Quality. But hey, if anyone can screw up Unix user accounts and permissions, leave it to Apple to do it. They can't even make decades-old borrowed code work reliably.
PPC is over 5 years old now, I'd like to see a five year old PC run 7 without lag. So it makes sense that companies remove support for outdated computers.
In other words I don't blame MS if 7 runs like **** on older comps, and I don't blame apple for dropping old arch.
Would you be content if I showed you Win7 running on a netbook with a gig of ram, with full Aero effects enabled? Snow Leopard probably made a lot of older systems run like brand new, once people had to start doing clean installs from all their data being deleted. Btw, hows that fix working out. Oh, wait...they haven't released an official patch yet? Two weeks, and an issue where users are accidently wiping out all their files, and Apple are still 'working on a fix'? Quality. But hey, if anyone can screw up Unix user accounts and permissions, leave it to Apple to do it. They can't even make decades-old borrowed code work reliably.
Yeah, a netbook with NEW tech. not a 5 year old Pentium 3/4 whatever, with slower outdated specs and RAM.
And.. wait, what? You bring up a totally unrelated point to bash Apple?
I think I'm done with you.
Pentium 4s from like the early 2000s will be able to run it fine.
Pentium 4s from like the early 2000s will be able to run it fine.
Define 'Fine'.
My point was that companies, ALL companies need to drop support at some point.
You MS apologists sure are out and about today, aren't you?
I'm not on anyones side here, I did use, and loved windows for years. I just happen to like using a Mac better.
Sure its not as responsive as say windows 7 running on a dual core, and yeh startup time is a bit more.
But you can easily use it as a day to day OS without hassle.
Because this article is filled with so much truth about windows isnt it
Well Apple needs some way to show off their products, because lord knows their commercials don't give any information about them.
So.. he can't talk about good performance on non performant hardware unless it's old hardware? What a ridiculous assertion - to illustrate:
A 800mhz Celeron M = A modern Atom 1.6ghz processor.
Can I only compare on the latter and not the former? And if this isn't good enough how does a P4 even come into the equation when it'll easily outperform both of the above?
7 scales extremely well - this has been demonstrated time and time again and many, many people have tried it for themselves.. And yet you're happy to sit there an ignore all the evidence to the contrary of your opinion? Foolish to say the least, disappointing at best.
PPC is over 5 years old now, I'd like to see a five year old PC run 7 without lag. So it makes sense that companies remove support for outdated computers.
In other words I don't blame MS if 7 runs like **** on older comps, and I don't blame apple for dropping old arch.
Would you be content if I showed you Win7 running on a netbook with a gig of ram, with full Aero effects enabled? Snow Leopard probably made a lot of older systems run like brand new, once people had to start doing clean installs from all their data being deleted. Btw, hows that fix working out. Oh, wait...they haven't released an official patch yet? Two weeks, and an issue where users are accidently wiping out all their files, and Apple are still 'working on a fix'? Quality. But hey, if anyone can screw up Unix user accounts and permissions, leave it to Apple to do it. They can't even make decades-old borrowed code work reliably.
Yeah, a netbook with NEW tech. not a 5 year old Pentium 3/4 whatever, with slower outdated specs and RAM.
And.. wait, what? You bring up a totally unrelated point to bash Apple?
I think I'm done with you.
My 6 year old PC run windows 7 with no issues. Its pentium 4 and 1 gb ram.Do some research before you say something.
Oh wait can a 6 year old mac run OSX snow leapord... try that..
apple would have stopped supporting them.
Last edited by still1 on 29 Oct 2009 - 16:46
MS doesnt bash Apple. Well, if you call MS telling the truth on how much more expensive Macs are as bashing, I guess they kinda do. But its not really bashing. MS also tells what their products can do.
The one time they called Apple out in an advertisement, Apple bitch and moaned about it and had the advert changed to be "more accurate."
Let's say, if you want to see the desktop :
windows 7:
press the bottom right button.
or
press the key windows+d (it is not widely used but it is a option).
or
right button in the task bar -> show the desktop.
or
(if visible) click the in icon show desktop.
or
alt+tab and select the desktop
or
windows+tab and select the desktop.
Linux
pretty much like Windows, press a button (you can add it if it is not visible), press some keys or to select the option.
In OSX: (c&p).
* Press F11, this will engage expose and move all windows to the edge of your screen,
* click anywhere on your desktop while holding Cmnd-Option on your keyboard - this will hide all programs but Finder, if open, or
* you can use ShowDesktop, a free application by Everyday Software that sits in your dock or your menu bar and shows desktop by simply clicking on it.
Naturally anyone without a diploma in common sense will find this complicated.
Oh but wait, the ones that don't have the alternative: a PHD in bull**** excuses. (Like Brian Croll for example)
Last edited by /- Razorfold on 26 Oct 2009 - 20:30
'Think Different', by doing exactly what they tell you to do, or using a 3rd party app. Sure, ok.
'Think Different', by doing exactly what they tell you to do, or using a 3rd party app. Sure, ok.
Funny thing is using a 3rd party app and clicking show desktop...isnt complicated.
But clicking show desktop in the windows taskbar is
* Press F11, this will engage expose and move all windows to the edge of your screen,
* click anywhere on your desktop while holding Cmnd-Option on your keyboard - this will hide all programs but Finder, if open, or
* you can use ShowDesktop, a free application by Everyday Software that sits in your dock or your menu bar and shows desktop by simply clicking on it.
I have a hot corner set and just flick my mouse to that corner. Easy as pie, quicker than anything else, and allows me to quickly drag-and-drop files into spring loaded folders.
Because flicking your mouse into the bottom right corner and CLICKING is so much more complex.
Dear god if this world ever came to a point where people found clicking a button tiresome and complex
I'm not sure what this obsession with seeing ones desktop is... you guys must have some hot babe wallpapers you need to check up on...
I'm not sure what this obsession with seeing ones desktop is... you guys must have some hot babe wallpapers you need to check up on...
Yeh the hot babe on the wallpaper might just run off! Gotta keep her in check!
Dear god if this world ever came to a point where people found clicking a button tiresome and complex
I just made a point that there was an easier way than key combos......
I tend to find the fastest route the easiest, sorry.
Dear god if this world ever came to a point where people found clicking a button tiresome and complex
I just made a point that there was an easier way than key combos......
I tend to find the fastest route the easiest, sorry.
Does flicking your mouse to the bottom right corner and clicking REALLY make your life that much harder and wastes that much time, as opposed to just flicking your mouse to one sid?
Flicking it to the bottom right shows you your desktop, then clicking it minimizes everything...
Jesus, it takes like a nanosecond more to click...
Last edited by /- Razorfold on 26 Oct 2009 - 23:49
Dear god if this world ever came to a point where people found clicking a button tiresome and complex
I just made a point that there was an easier way than key combos......
I tend to find the fastest route the easiest, sorry.
Does flicking your mouse to the bottom right corner and clicking REALLY make your life that much harder and wastes that much time, as opposed to just flicking your mouse to one sid?
Jesus, it takes like a nanosecond more to click...
Sorry, click what?
Just a flick to the corner shows my desktop, I don't have to also click. And why are you arguing my point anyways? Really. If i find it easier, that's all that matters to ME, not how you intend to use your own computer. LOL
Windows 7 if you flick to the bottom right it shows you your desktop. If you then click that button it minimizes all open windows.
I'm confused now. What is your point? I was talking about OS X.
I know about the endcap on 7 showing the desktop, I just find it takes a little more precision than an OS X hot corner.
Again, what I find easier, may not be what you find easier. Flicking for me is easier than hitting a key combo.
If you have to set up a hot corner and then flick to it, doesn't that make it more "complex" or just as "complex" as windows?
As for keycombos, the majority of people don't even use that. Its either click show desktop in the old versions, or flick to bottom right in the new versions...So where's the complexity come from?
Last edited by /- Razorfold on 27 Oct 2009 - 00:20
Let's say, if you want to see the desktop :
windows 7:
press the bottom right button.
or
press the key windows+d (it is not widely used but it is a option).
or
right button in the task bar -> show the desktop.
or
(if visible) click the in icon show desktop.
or
alt+tab and select the desktop
or
windows+tab and select the desktop.
Linux
pretty much like Windows, press a button (you can add it if it is not visible), press some keys or to select the option.
In OSX: (c&p).
* Press F11, this will engage expose and move all windows to the edge of your screen,
* click anywhere on your desktop while holding Cmnd-Option on your keyboard - this will hide all programs but Finder, if open, or
* you can use ShowDesktop, a free application by Everyday Software that sits in your dock or your menu bar and shows desktop by simply clicking on it.
All you're proving with your post is that the easiest way is available on all three platforms, but that Windows 7 provides multiple ways of doing it. Choice is so terrible...
Dear god if this world ever came to a point where people found clicking a button tiresome and complex
Yeah, then apple will remove that one remaining mouse button too.
You would have to use the force to click stuff.
If they are dumbing down it's only because they are being forced to.
Don't install random "codec packs" off the Internet, and you can avoid thumbnail crashing problems. I only install the bare minimum, and use VLC for everything else.
Wow... I didn't know there was an april fools day in October.
And as mentioned here many times, if Apple did become mainstream, a lot of changes and actions that happen to Windows, would be implemented into OS X.
Maybe OS X should become mainstream, then Microsoft would be able to include native support for PDF, etc. etc. without being accused of being a monopoly.
I think this is the start of a slow demise for Mac.
And as mentioned here many times, if Apple did become mainstream, a lot of changes and actions that happen to Windows, would be implemented into OS X.
Maybe OS X should become mainstream, then Microsoft would be able to include native support for PDF, etc. etc. without being accused of being a monopoly.
I think this is the start of a slow demise for Mac.
They've been saying the same things about windows for many years now, and have yet to meet their demise.
Honestly people, it's marketing and one-upsmanship. That's all this babble is.
It's odd how it's hurting so many Windows users emotions, they are just computers/tools.
You use what you like/need to get the job done....
Looks like someone I remember that had Linux on his laptop.
I mean, is alright for Apple to really up the ante when is Win7 release time, but all I read is Windows 7 bashing. Why don't they instead of bashing, actually try and promote their own products.
Conclusion is that Apple really don't have anything in OSX that could really sway users with quick impact. And of course, even IF windows is expensive, Apple themselves don't really provide anything that is not.
I'll fix that for you:
Now that Windows 7 has launched and is receiving
publicbeta tester praise.The same praise every incarnation receives regardless of whether it deserves it or not. Most people I know who have tried it say it's significantly slower than XP, and even boots slower than vista (if that's even possible lol). On top of that, you have the normal application incompatibilities and driver crashes. Sound familiar? All in all, mostly hype amounting to nothing. Stay with XP or install Ubuntu for a far better experience.
Now that Windows 7 has launched and is receiving
publicbeta tester praise.The same praise every incarnation receives regardless of whether it deserves it or not. Most people I know who have tried it say it's significantly slower than XP, and even boots slower than vista (if that's even possible lol). On top of that, you have the normal application incompatibilities and driver crashes. Sound familiar? All in all, mostly hype amounting to nothing. Stay with XP or install Ubuntu for a far better experience.
Wow. It's hard to believe anybody could be THIS stupid, but you take the cake. Beta tester? The damn thing's been out of beta for months, and the people you know must be as braindead as you. Is there something in the water where you live? Application incompatibilities were phased out around the time of Vista SP1, and driver crashes happen in every OS, although I haven't had a single one since XP. Only driver I ever had crash in Vista was a video driver after the card got too hot. And where's the positive experience in installing Ubuntu? Hey look I can type **** into Terminal instead, that makes me a cooler computer user. Go back to your commune.
Now that Windows 7 has launched and is receiving
publicbeta tester praise.The same praise every incarnation receives regardless of whether it deserves it or not. Most people I know who have tried it say it's significantly slower than XP, and even boots slower than vista (if that's even possible lol). On top of that, you have the normal application incompatibilities and driver crashes. Sound familiar? All in all, mostly hype amounting to nothing. Stay with XP or install Ubuntu for a far better experience.
Try Win 7 first...
Now that Windows 7 has launched and is receiving
publicbeta tester praise.The same praise every incarnation receives regardless of whether it deserves it or not. Most people I know who have tried it say it's significantly slower than XP, and even boots slower than vista (if that's even possible lol). On top of that, you have the normal application incompatibilities and driver crashes. Sound familiar? All in all, mostly hype amounting to nothing. Stay with XP or install Ubuntu for a far better experience.
Try Win 7 first...
Why would he? I mean, you don't need actual experience to be an expert right?
Now that Windows 7 has launched and is receiving
publicbeta tester praise.The same praise every incarnation receives regardless of whether it deserves it or not. Most people I know who have tried it say it's significantly slower than XP, and even boots slower than vista (if that's even possible lol). On top of that, you have the normal application incompatibilities and driver crashes. Sound familiar? All in all, mostly hype amounting to nothing. Stay with XP or install Ubuntu for a far better experience.
Wow. You are so clueless it's hard to know where to begin. I mean, truly clueless. Are you some 10-year old kid who just wants to start a flame war? I mean, honestly, I think even die-hard Mac users know this is just a bunch of B.S.
And most people you know who have tried it say it's slower than XP and Vista? Who do you know? Your little kiddie friends don't count as experts or even power users. Anyone and everyone who has used it knows this is all completely false and baseless.
Which application incompatibilities? Which driver crashes? If they are so abundant, how is it that I never experience them? I must have been extremely lucky all those years.
The fact of the matter is that there needs to be definable proof why we should buy an Apple or Microsoft product. I don't care what logo is on the case. The amount of energy it takes to bash a competitor should be used toward making a better product. Microsoft seems to be moving on, but Apple apparently wants to continue catering to this cult-like propaganda.
What he said is complete bull ****. And the fact is people are buying Windows 7, and it's getting thousands of good reviews. I just think Apple are nervous, and don't really know what to say in defense. The new I'm a Mac commercials have no real point to them. They don't prove anything, and just say that this women wanted to move to mac. Which doesn't say to the consumer that Macs are better, which they are not.
Apple = Pathetic at the moment
Humm? Not really.
Wow he couldn't be anymore wrong. Sure ME was nothing special but I've really never had any crazy problems with any Windows OS. And to say that the 'headaches' continue on with Windows 7... yea wow....
I especially laughed at "from Windows Me to NT". So it went back a generation?
I have seen mac and I dont see any changes made to there OS for a decade now. Tell me whats new in MAC. Its same old with some features added.They saw windows is old!!! B*LL S**TT. compare Xp and windows 7 they have changed a lot.
Apple said windows are expensive. I bought 2 PC $1000 dell studio XPS and $700 dell studio. I got 2 OS and 2 PC but look at MAC it costs more than $1700 with one OS and their crap hardware.
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