Late last week, Microsoft published a post on the Microsoft SMB community blog announcing that using any "hack" to install Windows 7 from upgrade media is not necessarily "legal" - and that users do not own the rights to perform such installs from upgrade media using this process.If you're an owner of upgrade media, then you've probably experienced the painful migration process that the upgrade process tries to force you through - if you're using XP it requires you to boot to an existing Windows installation, use Windows easy transfer to backup your information, then will allow you to complete a "clean install" if it detects a partition with a previous, licensed copy of Windows installed. If you own Windows Vista you can also perform an in-place upgrade - which is often a slow, painstaking process.
The blog post, published by Eric Ligman appears to target Paul Thurrott's attempt to help confused users (that Microsoft has neglected) outlines that you must own a "qualifying full license to upgrade from in order to use the Upgrade license" and that by performing a clean install by using a hack you do not own a licensed copy of Windows. Eric Ligman also posted an image to demonstrate proper Windows upgrade licensing:
Eric goes on to point out that" ..when these posts and write-ups state that you can install clean from an Upgrade piece of software and they fail to mention that you need to own a qualifying software license to be legal to use the Upgrade software for the installation, they give the impression that because it is technically possible, it is legal to do."
The problem Microsoft has created is for customers that potentially do not have previous versions of Windows installed or on hand - a few years ago, you could boot to the setup, insert the older Windows media into the CD drive and it would detect that it was a legitimate copy. Now, Microsoft no longer offer this feature and forces users to have Windows already installed to prove that they have it licensed to them. Interestingly enough, this hack has actually been available since Vista was released in 2006 and was commonly used back then to perform clean installs from upgrade media too.
Eric goes on to point out that if you do own a full license to a qualifying previous version of Windows, then you own the rights to perform a clean install, as per the image above. A qualifying license is a full version of Windows XP or Windows Vista, not an upgrade edition.
Eric has also posted stating that he will answer further questions on Monday - Neowin will provide updates as more details are available.
Edit: Title corrected
True, but purchasing the cheap OS X Snow Leopard upgrade disc and installing it clean would also violate the license, although possible.
Actually their upgrade discs seem to skip over a few things so the resulting install isn't complete.
FACT: Apple use a similar license idea for their OS X upgrade discs.
Last time I checked I could perform an Erase & Install with my Mac OS X Snow Leopard Upgrade DVD from Leopard without resorting to hacks.
It's not illegal to execute a clean install as long as you have a Leopard Install DVD lying around somewhere.
Last time I checked I could perform an Erase & Install with my Mac OS X Snow Leopard Upgrade DVD from Leopard without resorting to hacks.
They are not saying it is illegal to do the clean install, the NeoWin title is very misleading. Clean install with your upgrade media twice a week if that is what floats your boat, just make sure you own a full or OEM version of an older version.
This is nothing new, I remember when I did a clean install of Windows 98 using my "upgrade" CD and floppy (yes, that was before MS shipped bootable CDs) it prompted me to insert a Windows 95 CD or Windows 3.x floppy into the computer to verify that I had a legit version before I could move forward with the install.
Don't use Apple is an example to show that Microsoft is more greedy, please. If you buy Apple software that means that you've at least bought a machine from them, so they don't care about the difference between a full version and an upgrade version--they already have your money. Apple however is greedy in that they won't let you install Apple software without purchasing a machine from them, even though you'd technically be able to run it on any Intel processor.
This article didn't seem to say much of anything though. The Microsoft representative seems to be only saying that you need a license for a previous version for it to be legal. It doesn't say that if you have a license but the previous version isn't on your computer at the time that its illegal.
There a saying: "necessity is the mother of all invention".
MS is making their license scheme so complicated and Windows is so expensive, that they are just pushing people into all these workarounds and gymnastics to get what they want. MS created their own monster.
If MS would just get their F*?&%$ing head out the sand and put out one version of Windows with everything on the DVD, a panel where you choose what you want to install and sell it for 69$, they would make more money than they have ever seen.
No, the retail license would still be valid for genuine users.
You just want things cheap, you don't care about making things "easy" for genuine users.
True. The stores need to start selling the full versions as well and define the difference between them.
Stores will never sell the OEM version, but yes, I have seen the full version of Windows on a retail shelve before.
The title of this article is misleading and wrong. You can do clean installs from upgrade media. What Microsoft is talking about it buying a cheaper upgrade disc and using it to install Windows when you do not already have a previous version.
You're confusing the terms there. Most retail stores sell both Upgrade and Full versions, but very few sell 'OEM' software as that is for System Builders exclusively and does not come with the fancy packaging that you get with the Retail versions.
Unlike with Apple I'm not in it for the fancy packaging.
Not everyone wants to make a statement bad enough to punish themselves. While I think Linux is a good thing, most people find it to be restricting and not as intuitive as Windows. They don't WANT to spend the time it takes to learn it well enough to be comfortable. That leaves the only other option: buy a Mac. And I don't hate myself nearly enough to use one of those.
Indeed, many users don't care. And those could just as well pirate the OS, for all MS care. I never understood the idea of purchasing software to violate licenses. Either you go legal, or you don't. What's the point in paying money to mess with the company's license?
Because you can burn a copy of your friends OEM disk and use that as an upgrade eligibility proof. Its a little harder to do with an installed and activated product, though not at all impossible.
What you say does not make sense.
You can get that media, install it without a serial number and not activate Windows. Windows 7 Upgrade will just work fine because it doesn't check the serial number of the previous installation, neither does it check if it is activated.
Not necessarily. They could also purchaser an OEM *System Builder* version (still legit), which is usually barely more than an upgrade retail version.
What you say does not make sense.
You can get that media, install it without a serial number and not activate Windows. Windows 7 Upgrade will just work fine because it doesn't check the serial number of the previous installation, neither does it check if it is activated.
That is not consistent with what I have heard. My understanding is that it requires the installed OS to be activated.
Money Saving Example
Nothing+Upgrade Product License Not Added+Upgrade Product License=Nothing Licensed
Or
Example of Money Saving Example with Names
Nothing+Windows 7 Upgrade License Not Added+Windows 7 Upgrade License=Full Install of Windows 7 License
It doesn't pay to be honest when dealing with MS
Apple has the exact same policy when it comes to the Snow Leopard OS X upgrade disc. So much for that idea huh. :-p
Is it about price? No, because OEM is cheaper.
Can you activate multiple PCs with one key? No.
Can you download it from Bittorent? No, because HP OEM, HP Upgrade and HP retail is on the identical disc.
The only thing that is different is the key. If I had an upgrade version I would do clean install too. Theres no reason why shlould I keep old XP on my HDD, right?
Is it about price? No, because OEM is cheaper.
Can you activate multiple PCs with one key? No.
Can you download it from Bittorent? No, because HP OEM, HP Upgrade and HP retail is on the identical disc.
The only thing that is different is the key. If I had an upgrade version I would do clean install too. Theres no reason why shlould I keep old XP on my HDD, right?
It's about MS support costs for end users. OEM's are cheaper, yes, but those don't go through these channels.
Actually all you get for support is install support during the first 90 days. You also get 2 free tickets in there for support but afterward it is $59 per ticket. I'd just stick to the OEM copy. If you can get to premium support they handle OEM installs at $59 a ticket.
+1
Agreed, I'm not suggesting it’s a great deal; just pointing out it is a difference. I personally think that what MS changes for an upgrade should cover the full product. Charging an extra $80 to punish people who don't already have Windows is just silly and only leads to pirating. Now if MS kept the pre-order upgrade pricing then yes, I could see leaving that as an upgrade only.
What's so hard about just asking the user for the license key from the previous OS, instead of requiring the often impossible task of installing the old OS first before you can re-install Win7.
Is it not enough to simply insert the Windows XP/Vista install disc as validation when you're asked to? I know it was in the Windows 9x days. Otherwise, yes, that'd be stupid to require a full install as validation.
What's so hard about just asking the user for the license key from the previous OS, instead of requiring the often impossible task of installing the old OS first before you can re-install Win7.
They are not asking anyone to do that, and apparently all you did was read NewWin's misleading title and not the entire article. The act of performing a clean install is not the issue; the issue is doing a clean install on a computer that did not already have a license to run Windows. If THAT computer (not just some other computer in your house) has a license to run either Windows XP or Vista then you can clean install Windows 7 all you want, but if you built a new system and installed the Windows 7 "upgrade" without anything else then you are what they are talking about here.
Will Ubuntu run my games? Will Ubuntu allow me to legally watch movies and play music?
No?
Ok, never mind then.
wake up... http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php
What you fail in is, that is the statistic for web site visitors. You sneaky!
"Anyone can take the statistics that favors their desired outcome and use those to “prove” something."
This blog sarcastically says Linux has 46% Market Share.
http://blog.eracc.com/2009/02/18/linux-market-share/
BACK TO ACCURATE REALITY: Linux has 0.96% Market Share as of October 2009:
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-...rid=8&sample=35
"Anyone can take the statistics that favors their desired outcome and use those to “prove” something."
This blog sarcastically says Linux has 46% Market Share.
http://blog.eracc.com/2009/02/18/linux-market-share/
BACK TO ACCURATE REALITY: Linux has 0.96% Market Share as of October 2009:
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-...rid=8&sample=35
Granted.. my mistake :-) Ricknl can go back to sleep ehehe
If I want to clean install an upgrade when I have a valid Vista or XP license I will do what I want. :|
"You might want to take a look again at what I wrote in the Blog post. In your scenario you are saying that you own a full Windows license and then bought the upgrade for it. That means you have a licnese to run Windows 7, so if you want to do a "clean" install, go ahead. There is no reason for you to keep draggin out the original media for the full Windows license that came on that machine."
This seem pretty clear to me. You have a full license for Windows XP/Vista, and you can do a clean install of Windows 7 from upgrade media *without any repercussions*.
I agree.
Once you've got a valid license, no one's going to take it away from you, especially in this case... the marketing consequences would just be too great. Once word got out all those new, shiny win7 packages would be returned from every retailer as un-sellable.
I think policy for most major apps is you forfeit the license you're upgrading when you install a new version upgrade, though it's rarely enforced if at all. And most any reduced price software upgrade requires some sort of proof that you qualify -- if not why even have a regular price/version? Beyond that the cost of enforcing policy just becomes too great, & the task too difficult.
My read on the win7 Family Packs is that there are so many people out there installing a single copy of Windows on every PC/laptop in the house, Microsoft figured they *might* cash in on any guilty consciences, long as the price was low enough. Why *give away* 2 added licenses if you thought there was any chance of selling them?
Microsoft hoping customers won't *abuse* their upgrade copies is the same sort of thing.
Allow folks to install directly from upgrade media without any sort of hacks but require them to input the CD key from their previous version of Windows. The advantages of this are two fold... 1) It will allow Microsoft to then invalidate this old key so that it cannot be used to activate the old Windows version again. and 2) It makes it easy for the consumer.
Checking the install media is ineffective as you can obtain the Windows XP or Vista CD/DVD from anywhere. It's the key that proves the license, not the CD/DVD.
That old key would be permanently tied to the new Windows 7 upgrade key allowing you to reinstall Windows 7 as needed, but not allowing you to activate the old copy of Windows. Simples.
When I wipe my HDD drive I have to install Vista first, then Windows 7 - this is what Microsoft wants me to do. What's the sense of this? No wonder people look for hacks then.
When I wipe my HDD drive I have to install Vista first, then Windows 7 - this is what Microsoft wants me to do. What's the sense of this? No wonder people look for hacks then.
No, you do not!
From XP, simply do a custom install. (The same method works from the RC of Windows 7, which works until March 2010.) If you want to hold on to your files and settings, simply run the Files and Settings Transfer Wizard both pre-install and post-install, the wizard is on the Windows 7 DVD.) Or, since you have a legit license for XP, you can still install Windows 7 legally *even onto a clean hard drive*, as you meet the licensing criteria. You are reading WAY more into the article than what's actually there....which is what the author hoped.
This post is talking about using upgrade media to clean install on a blank hard drive.
Unlikely, as Apple use a similar license idea for their OS X upgrade discs.
ROFL. GOLD!!!
The only reason they are saying this is so you will buy the more expensive, full edition DVD.
This is as legit as it gets.
1). slow upgrade process
2). the possibility of an upgrade going wrong
3). loose a right you previously had... at least on a physical level
If you upgrade a fresh install of Windows... it will be seen as an upgrade. The only option would be for Microsoft to require a serial number upon install.
It will have you do a custom install.
2. Boot off the upgrade CD
3. Custom Install, reformat the Hard Drive
4. Install!
This is why MS put out this statement ... they made it easier for existing customers and people are exploiting the hell out of it. Which makes me kind of sick. If you can afford the extra 80$ don't get it yet... end of story. Is this really why people sit here and bash on MS? Or even ANYONE that gives existing customers a break? What reason does MS have to give people that already own their products a break if all people do is exploit it?
I did the same on Mom's PC (7 RC 32-bit to 7 RTM 32-bit); the *custom install* method. Her files and setings were retained; however, her Windows directory (and subdirectories) were not. Custom installs with upgrade media, full-version media, or even System Builder OEM media are perfectly permissible (and even perfectly legal) as long as you follow the licensing criteria. (By the way, the *custom install* method is the only way in which to upgrade from the RC to the RTM version, or to do a cross-bitness (32-bit to 64-bit) upgrade; in both cases, the Files and Settings Transfer Wizard must be run both pre-install and post-install.)
What Microsoft is cheesed about is folks using upgrade media without having properly-licensed qualifying media at hand (not necessarily installed), which is actually a legitimate concern (and Microsoft is not the only victim of this; this happens more often with Nero and Roxio products than even Windows, as it also does with Adobe products in general, and Acrobat in particular).
Thats why they are forcing you to do an in-place upgrade rather than a full install.
I was smart and got a technet subscription and was able to Full Install Win 7 on all 3 of my machines as well as Putting office on all of them
Yes, I know MS doesn't really define evaluation, but seriously, pot, kettle, you're both not properly licensed.
"UPGRADE
" not full install disk.
Thats why they are forcing you to do an in-place upgrade rather than a full install.
They are not forcing anyone to do an in-place upgrade. You CAN use your upgrade discs to do a clean install if you have a qualifying product to upgrade from. Just ignore the title; this thread is what comes from "unprofessional journalism".
How the hell is this pirating unless you are running Windows in a VM, on a Mac or as a system builder?
I don't understand all this moaning. Computers are useless without an operating system. If you buy a computer, either buy an OS for it or use a free one. It's not like Windows is that expensive especially since you get upgrade discounts (and this time pretty substantial one.)
All I am talking about is the ability to install Windows to a fresh formatted drive without having to have a previous version of Windows on it. It should not be necessary to rely on a software hack.
This has nothing to do with buying a computer. My reference to Linux and Mac was that they would be one of the few very that would not have a previous valid Windows license (XP or Vista). I made no mention of Win2k.
They're saying clean install without previous version of XP/Vista licenses is pirating...
DId anyone bother READING what Microsoft said? the diagram even SHOWS that clean installs are fine...
You simply put in your previous version's CD at some point and let it check.
Actually upgrading a previous version has always been flaky. That's why, according to MS: "For the best experience, Microsoft IT recommends that employees wait for the Clean Install with Data Migration images to be available."
The upgrade versions only exist to fill a price point that they don't really want to encourage. In other words: for marketing purposes only.
You can't even upgrade from Windows XP, they want you to buy Vista first if you want to choose the upgrade path. That'll be a rude awakening for many users... even though in reality it's nothing new, it'll probably be confusing and inconvenient for many average users.
Last edited by HalcyonX12 on 02 Nov 2009 - 16:13
That is precisely *why* I've been horked off with both Staples *and* Office Depot; both chains sell hard drives, yet neither sells OEM/System Builder copies of Windows. (A hard drive is considered a *qualifying product* for anyone to purchase an OEM/System Builder copy of any Microsoft product, be it software or hardware.) Instead, I send folks to MicroCenter or Fry's (if they choose brick-and-mortar) or Newegg (if they buy online) and insist they buy hard drive and OEM product in the same order (that way, not even the BSA can say *boo*).
Still, I do see your point and for the most part would recommend the strategy as well.
1. Do you have a win xp/vista license? yes/no
2. Do you have a win 7 upgrade license? yes/no
If you answer yes for both then you're good to run 7.
It's that easy.
If anyone could READ even this ONE line in the article: "you must own a "qualifying full license to upgrade from in order to use the Upgrade license" they would realize that nothing has changed. It is, of course, illegal to buy an upgrade version if you don't own a genuine license for the previous version. If you do, however, you can go right ahead and legally perform a clean isntallation with upgrade media.
If you buy an Upgrade edition without any qualifying previous version then yes you are pirating. Go out and buy the OEM edition with a nice hardware upgrade or go get the full version.
Apple forbids upgrades, too. Linux doesn't count. It's free.
"C. Leopard Upgrade Licenses. If you have purchased an Upgrade for Mac OS X Leopard license, then subject to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a limited nonexclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on a single Apple-branded computer as long as that computer has a properly licensed copy of Mac OS X Leopard already installed on it. If you have purchased a Family Pack Upgrade for Mac OS X Leopard license, then subject to the terms and conditions of this License, you are granted a limited non-exclusive license to install, use and run one (1) copy of the Apple Software on up to a maximum of five (5) Apple-branded computers at a time as long as those computers are located in the same household (as defined above), are used by persons who occupy that same household, and each such computer has a properly licensed copy of Mac OS X Leopard already installed on it. The Family Pack Upgrade for Mac OS X Leopard License does not extend to business or commercial users."
Followed by the same pointless stating the obvious for days on end.
Those who pirate, will pirate till it gets impossible to do so.
Those who don't want to, won't.
Nothing no one says is going to change that.
Word
Eh, not so much. They have to prove damages for you to be fiscally liable. There are many "won" contract cases where the award is $1.
They are saying if you use upgrade media to do a clean install and you don't have a pre-existing media or install you can't upgrade. Unless MSFT has a way to know...how can they? In the upgrade process Window creates a directliry called Windows.old...if you wanted to...you could take an old Windows installl create the diorectory maually and copy the files here. Unless you use registry hacks there really is no way I can see MSFT would ever know. if you use a key and you activated it...as far as I am concerned you bought and registered a legal copy. Even in the case if MSFT forced you to have at least the qualifying media...all you have to do is go online to a torrent site of to one of your friends and download a copy fo the CD and burn it so that u'd have other media. Also something as simple as having the files copied to a thumb drive counts as pre-existing media. There are so many ways around this it isn't funny.
In my opinion noth Apple and MSFT is screwing us with a full install media and a upgarde media. Th eonly true difference is the EULA. The files are basically all the same. The full media simply forces you to do a clean install whether you have a pre-existing install or not. The upgrade media runs from inside another version of Windows...or can still be booted and will look for pre-existing system files...which as I can can simply be files of a previous Windows product liek XP or Vista copied to a thumb drive.
Fact is ...everyone could technically buy the Windows 7 Upgrade disk and easily be legal.
For those with system still under warranty...you should purchase the upgrade from the OEM of your PC...if you don't your warrnty will be voided as they only cover teh OS you receive from them. And they will not help you with an install. MSFT won't either as they will suggest you get your upgrades from the OEM...however they will always help you with Windows problems...just not those theat may be related to your original vendor.
Now their hard drive fails. Shouldn't they be entitled to re-install their Win7 Upgrade? How is that piracy?
If you have a valid license of windows on your computer, you can use the upgrade version ON THAT LICENSE ONLY (for OEM that computer only as license is tied to the computer).
If you do not have a valid license of windows, you have to either be an OEM and purchase the OEM copy from UMART etc... with the computer, OR buy a FULL RETAIL.
Otherwise you already have an OEM copy of the latest version of windows with your computer and this does not affect you.
There is NO middle ground. Just because you do not need to prove you are eligible to upgrade, does not mean it is legal, the EULA overrides technical limits placed on the software in a legal sense.
This needs to be made very clear from official sources, and it's really irritating me that it's not.
I have an OEM version of Windows Vista from Dell. After reading several comments here and elsewhere, I finally understand that if I buy the Windows 7 Upgrade, every single time I want to install it on my machine, I must first install my Windows Vista. Then I can insert my Win7 Upgrade disk and do a format and clean install during Win7 setup procedure.
Process:
1. Install Windows Vista
2. Insert Windows 7 Upgrade
3. Select format and clean installation when prompted.
4. Repeat 1-3 whenever you re-install Windows 7
Right??
Here's my real question though... If I want to do another clean installation of Windows 7 after the initial one, doesn't the installer count itself as a licensed copy, and install over itself? Or is the disc just too dumb to know that the version of Win7 it's overwriting is valid?
His statement that "you must own a FULL VERSION of a prior OS" is crazy! That means that if you upgrade your current XP computer to Windows 7, you CANNOT upgrade it to Windows 8 without buying a new FULL VERSION license! Microsoft has ALWAYS considered a legally-upgraded OS to be the equivalent of a FULL OS license.
As Eric points out, an Upgrade version of the previous OS isn't, by itself, a license to the prior OS. But an Upgrade version ON TOP OF A PRIOR FULL VERSION is a competely legitimate basis for an Upgrade to Win7.
The are likely millions of us who haven't purchased a FULL version of Windows in years. My primary desktop's last FULL version license is based on a full version of Windows 3.11 purchased in 1993. Since then, I've been applying Upgrades on that original license and this is a completely legitmate strategy. Microsoft could require me to show that my original Win 3.11 license is not being used on any other PC and that my Upgrades aren't being used on any other PC, but if that's the case, then my OS meets MS' licensing terms.
In the Retail Windows 7 Professional EULA, I see this:
"15. UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement takes the place of the agreement for the software you upgraded from. After you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from."
Let's say I have a PC with FULL Retail Windows 2000 Professional installed. Then I upgrade it using Retail Box XP Professional UPGRADE software.
Now I want to upgrade it using Retail Box Windows 7 Professional UPGRADE software. Can I "legally" upgrade my PC to Windows 7 or not?
According to the EULA, it appears I can. I have a license for XP, right? Or do I not have a license for XP?. [EULA: "To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the software that is eligible for the upgrade."]
I have all my Retail Box Windows boxes (2000, XP, and Window 7). I have all my License Keys. I have all of the paper that came with each releaase. All the licenses have been dedicated to this single PC. They are not being used anywhere else.
If this is contrary to the EULA, I'm not seeing it. But Eric Ligman's statement last week, Eric stated that only a "Full License" could be upgraded. But now I see that another "Microsoft spokesperson" is saying that the requirement for Upgrade is a dedicated license for an eligible previous version of Windows.
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