Windows 8 HAS NO START MENU

[sam17ub]

So you think that by the time Windows 9 launches, we'll all stop using "legacy" (please, "legacy"?) apps? So we're all just going to stop gaming? We're going to stop using Photoshop? Because if you honestly mean to tell me that you think these applications are going to switch over to Microsoft's hybrid language (HTML5, Javascript, etc), then I think you're utterly crazy.

Don't call them legacy apps. There's nothing "legacy" about them, because developers aren't going to sacrifice just so they don't have to be launched in the desktop. Similarly, I think a lot of developers are going to want the desktop to be utilized. Why would Steam, for instance, want to be launched in the Start screen? For multitasking, the new Start screen has to prove itself.

I wish people would stop praising everything Microsoft does on Neowin just because they're Microsoft and that's the primary subject of the site's news and information. Newsflash: they're fallible, just like everyone else.

No, I love Windows 8's UI not because it comes from Microsoft, but because I LOVE the Metro UI. I believe it is the most beautiful, elegant and productive UI ever designed. I LOVE the decision for the Start Menu to be ditched not because Microsoft made that decision. It's because I NEVER use the Start Menu in Windows 7 to do ANYTHING but to use the search box, and hence I feel the Start Menu is completely redundant. I have ZERO use for the desktop becasue I have ZERO shortcuts in my Windows 7 desktop other than the recycle bin.

And most of the Windows 7 users I have seen follow this usage pattern. Therefore, it's absolutely the right decision in my opinion to ditch the old Start Menu/Desktop UI. For those few who still use the Start Menu like it was used during the Windows 98 days, they will have the option to disable the Start Screen altogether and stick with the old UI. But for the majority of Windows users, the Metro Start Screen is the way to go.

[Woelfel]

Just like how this reasoning is:

"nobody cooks at home anymore.... so might as well get rid of the kitchen becuase it wastes space in your house".....

when I actually prefer to cook my meals at home! Not everyone wants to be forced to eat out!

Same as the other examples presented... we still want our options! We don't want them taken away.

No, that's not an option, that's more of a demand. Some of you don't want the Start Screen AT ALL. Not saying MS is going to get it right the first time out, but they have to force people to use it otherwise people won't use it and it's probably more efficient. Prime example, Ribbon interface for Office. A lot of menus that Office had, remixed into a more "modern" interface that does the same functionality and much better and still powerful. This is the same thing in a sense (and guess who was in charge of that, Steven Sinofsky). MS is making a big change to the UI of a "system" and people are crying foul until they realize the usefullness of it. Now, like I said before, I'm not saying that MS is going to get it right the first time through, but I do trust in their ability to pull it off correctly. A lot of you guys are complaining about "this is how I like it." sound like old people who don't like change. THIS IS FREAKING TECHNOLOGY, computer software no less, and you want it to be the same? You mean from all the future computer stuff that we've seen in television shows in the past (and even now) that it should be the same. In 2030, we should still have a taskbar and start menu? Honestly, I feel that's dumb. Not saying this is all directed towards you remixedcat, I'm talking generally. Things DO NEED to change, and yes, it's going to suck for those who want to keep what they know, but for the rest of us who want those futuristic computer systems, this is awesome. </rant>

[remixedcat]

but we don't live in a TV show.

[MFH]

Some of you don't want the Start Screen AT ALL.

True, but you seem to miss the reason: we don't see the point of pushing this UI to a device where it's counter productive (e.g. desktops, notebooks,?)

Prime example, Ribbon interface for Office. A lot of menus that Office had, remixed into a more "modern" interface that does the same functionality and much better and still powerful.

Difference: Ribbon doesn't mess around with the OS, but only changes the UI of one program - btw Ribbon doesn't really fit Metro?

And to be honest: yes Ribbon helps all of us that didn't learn where all the nice features were hidden in the UI. But products like http://www.addintools.com/office2010/professionalplus/index.html prove that that's not the case for those that actually know how to use the old UI?

MS is making a big change to the UI of a "system" and people are crying foul until they realize the usefullness of it.

Or: People a closing their eyes until they realize that the new UI makes them unproductive?

You mean from all the future computer stuff that we've seen in television shows in the past (and even now) that it should be the same.

So you believe that the unrealistic stuff the some science fiction authors pulled out their a** is really our future^^

In 2030, we should still have a taskbar and start menu? Honestly, I feel that's dumb.

No get rid of stuff that works! Burn all steering wheels they are old and outdated!

but for the rest of us who want those futuristic computer systems, this is awesome. </rant>

Current technology is never futuristic? Something that is here today can't be futuristic as it's already here?

[Calum Veteran]

So you think that by the time Windows 9 launches, we'll all stop using "legacy" (please, "legacy"?) apps? So we're all just going to stop gaming? We're going to stop using Photoshop? Because if you honestly mean to tell me that you think these applications are going to switch over to Microsoft's hybrid language (HTML5, Javascript, etc), then I think you're utterly crazy.

Don't call them legacy apps. There's nothing "legacy" about them, because developers aren't going to sacrifice just so they don't have to be launched in the desktop. Similarly, I think a lot of developers are going to want the desktop to be utilized. Why would Steam, for instance, want to be launched in the Start screen? For multitasking, the new Start screen has to prove itself.

I wish people would stop praising everything Microsoft does on Neowin just because they're Microsoft and that's the primary subject of the site's news and information. Newsflash: they're fallible, just like everyone else.

You're talking as if you know all about Microsoft's new development model. They haven't given us any details yet. They've just mentioned HTML 5 and JavaScript will be a part of it. Why not wait until the BUILD conference where they will tell us all about it instead of assuming things?

Yeah working in a UI that allows 2 programs in parallel max on the screen and even prevents that if your screen doesn't fulfill certain criteria. Surely that's the future of multitasking?

Why do you need to run more than 2 apps next to each other at the same time? What benefits could that provide to you? Do you do this frequently or very rarely? I've never needed to do this.

Yes! Because Microsoft has a habit of not learning from their mistakes! I've used their software long enough to notice that, maybe you need to open your eyes?

And matter of fact: That they only realized such a search feature is needed in WP is a perfect example of them not learning anything?

Time will tell. I expect them to include a search function seeing as they have in Vista and 7; not only that, but it makes sense for them to include one.

Nope you asked: "Have Microsoft ever released a desktop or phone operating system that is unusable or doesn't work well?" And there you have it a non-complete list. BTW: calling Bob makes me wonder what your definition of "usable" is - do you consider punched cards to be a usable interface too?

Do you fancy explaining just how Bob was unusable please? Did you ever actually use it? I didn't, so I'm not going to comment on its usability. When I was replying to your list, I should have said "most", not "all". Either way, I now take back my question seeing as I haven't used every operating system they've released. I'm just very confident Windows 8 will be usable.

?? You work there or what? Even that wouldn't mean anything? And I never said I would understand them better than you, but that TheLegendOfMart seems to do?

TheLegendOfMart clearly does not understand them. They're criticising the new immersive experience when they don't even know anything about it. They even claim the new experience is designed for use on tablets only which is contradictory to what Microsoft have said.

No, I don't work for them. I just give their new operating system a chance when I haven't used it and when they haven't told us much about it. I don't assume like a lot of you are doing.

Useful information like: "You got new mail?" - yeah we've already had that. Or "new message from XYZ in messenger ABC" - have that already. Or a RSS Feed - we have it already? This "notifications" add absolutely nothing that wasn't there already?

No, you don't have it already in the same way it is seemingly displayed on the Start Screen. Please see the other thread I've replied to you in for why/how if you still don't understand this.

[Calum Veteran]

True, but you seem to miss the reason: we don't see the point of pushing this UI to a device where it's counter productive (e.g. desktops, notebooks,?)

Because it most likely isn't counter-productive on those devices. If it was, I'm confident Microsoft wouldn't release it by default for those devices. You haven't even tried it yet and you're claiming it's counter-productive, even when Microsoft (the people who make the operating system) have said it isn't and they know a hell of a lot more about the new operating system than you do. Microsoft have told us very little about the operating system; however, even considering this, and considering the fact you haven't tried it out, you're still claiming it to be counter-productive. Do you seriously not see what your problem is? Microsoft haven't told us enough for you to reasonably claim it is counter-productive!

Or: People a closing their eyes until they realize that the new UI makes them unproductive?

In what way could the new immersive experience make people unproductive?

No get rid of stuff that works! Burn all steering wheels they are old and outdated!

After using a Windows Phone since October, I'm confident the Start Screen will work much better than the Start Menu does. Unlike you, I'm willing to try it out, give it a chance, and actually see whether it does work better. You're judging and berating it before Microsoft have even told us much about it. You're implying people shouldn't get rid of things that work, but they certainly should if they release improvements; this new experience may well be an improvement.

[Pikey]

The OP is completely wrong anyway .. of course the start menu will still be there for normal use , if you want to switch to the tablet friendly screen then that will be available too!

Pretty obvious I would have thought ...

[Denis W. Veteran]

I'm curious as to who told you this? No one at Microsoft has publicly said there will be a way to turn the Start Screen off and that it will default to some horrible Start Menu at resolutions lower than 1024 x 768. I hope this isn't true; there needs to be some consistency, and I don't see how the Start Screen wouldn't work at lower resolutions.

The Start Menu isn't horrible. Anywho...

In the Computex demonstration of Windows 8, it was mentioned that the touch UI will not be offered on netbook resolutions such as 1024x600. Watch it here:

(was mentioned already earlier in this thread, but another link for posterity)

[Osiris]

start menu looks fine to me, best apart about that video was seeing the ARM references devices coming along. At long last with Windows 8 we will have all day computing on arm chips......hells yea

[Calum Veteran]

The OP is completely wrong anyway .. of course the start menu will still be there for normal use , if you want to switch to the tablet friendly screen then that will be available too!

Pretty obvious I would have thought ...

Why do people keep referring to it as the "tablet-friendly" screen or similar terms? It's making people think this experience was specifically designed for tablets when it wasn't; it was also designed for desktops and laptops.

The Start Menu isn't horrible. Anywho...

In the Computex demonstration of Windows 8, it was mentioned that the touch UI will not be offered on netbook resolutions such as 1024x600. Watch it here:

In my opinion, the Start Menu is horrible now I've seen Windows 8's Start Screen; it's also inferior in terms of features (from what they've shown). Thanks for the correction about the resolution though :) I'm surprised I missed that. I can see why they're doing that, but I hope use of those resolutions dies out soon then.

[KingCrimson]

Yes Windows 8 is horrible even none of us have actually USED it...

[Zain Adeel]

anybody here who thinks microsoft made this UI for DESKTOP should think again.

This UI is TABLET FRIENDLY. But.. it can also work with a mouse keyboard.

If anybody thinks microsoft isnt doing anything about AERO either they are wrong...or im not getting Win8 :p

coz if underneath this UI the WINDOWS is just like win7 then why waste money on just a touch UI???

i play games, do graphics, other stuff which needs the OLD AERO. and if they dont make anything new there, then its very poor from Microsofts part.

again...

all of you. Think about whats hidden beneath the BLURRED PICTURES behind on the wall in the first BUILD video..

i think its the new AERO :)

and just like microsft kept this TOUCH UI hidden before the first video. i think they are going to keep that hidden aswell. And this is very impressive.

No leak so far with the new UI or new AERO. (please dont say adding ribbon to it made it new)

[Calum Veteran]

anybody here who thinks microsoft made this UI for DESKTOP should think again.

[. . .]

They designed it to work well on both a desktop with a mouse and keyboard and on a tablet; that's what Microsoft have said and assuming they're lying about that is unreasonable at present because we haven't heard much about it, and we haven't had chance to try it.

[TheLegendOfMart]

They designed it to work well on both a desktop with a mouse and keyboard and on a tablet; that's what Microsoft have said and assuming they're lying about that is unreasonable at present because we haven't heard much about it, and we haven't had chance to try it.

Give it a rest. Every time theyve shown off Metro it has always been on some touch screen device, using a mouse in a touch ui isnt as intuitive. If you think this UI was designed for desktops then more fool you it was designed for small screen touch devices and tablets it has just been ADAPTED to run on a desktop it wasnt DESIGNED to be used that way, the only reason Microsoft are putting it on a desktop is to try and create some kind of uniformity between their oses and devices its not about improving your computer experience.

Why do i need to switch from my desktop to a windows media centre style interfance to see what emails i have, any twitter updates, launch my programs etc.. i like to multitask and every time i have to do something i will have to completely obscure the desktop by this stupid Start Screen, now i can have irc, media player, web browser and photoshop open and i can simply click on the start menu and launch another program while still looking at all these other apps open.

Its counter intuitive, the Metro UI was designed for mobile devices where each app takes up the full screen, being condescending to me saying "omg you havent tried it yet" doesnt change that fact, i know Metro UI ive been using it for the past 6 months and i know Microsoft ive been using Windows since 1.0...

[Calum Veteran]

Give it a rest.

I won't give anything a rest, you rude person! I have just as much right to post on these forums as you do, and while you continue to spread outright lies and misinformation, I will continue to refute your posts.

Every time theyve shown off Metro it has always been on some touch screen device,

That may be true, but they had a nontouchscreen device that Walt Mossberg was playing with at the D9 conference, shown in the below video, and they stated that Windows 8 will work just as well on those devices as it will on the touchscreen devices. Seeing as we don't yet know much about Windows 8, and we haven't yet used it, none us of can reasonably disagree with that at present!

using a mouse in a touch ui isnt as intuitive.

This is a user interface that was designed with both touch and a keyboard and mouse in mind though, according to Microsoft, and you cannot reasonably disagree with that at this stage, as I explain above!

If you think this UI was designed for desktops then more fool you

I am not a fool because unlike you I am utilising common sense. Common sense dictates that we cannot reasonably assume Microsoft is lying when they say this user interface was designed with both desktop use and tablet use in mind because we don't know enough about it yet and we haven't had chance to use it.

it was designed for small screen touch devices and tablets it has just been ADAPTED to run on a desktop it wasnt DESIGNED to be used that way, the only reason Microsoft are putting it on a desktop is to try and create some kind of uniformity between their oses and devices its not about improving your computer experience.

You do not know this for sure. You are assuming and accusing with absolutely no evidence to backup your unfounded accusations.

Why do i need to switch from my desktop to a windows media centre style interfance to see what emails i have, any twitter updates, launch my programs etc..

You don't. The idea is to stay within the new immersive experience. The desktop will likely only need to be accessed for few types of apps. Microsoft haven't yet confirmed that Office will not be developed as a new immersive app, so considering that may be an immersive app, it's likely the old desktop mode will only need to be accessed for applications like PhotoShop or Visual Studio. If we have to use the horrible desktop mode for Office applications then yes that will be an annoyance, but I'm confident that would change in the Office version after the next. In terms of checking Twitter and your email account, you may still be able to do that within a web browser on the horrible desktop mode if you choose to; none of us know because Microsoft hasn't yet told us.

i like to multitask and every time i have to do something i will have to completely obscure the desktop by this stupid Start Screen, now i can have irc, media player, web browser and photoshop open and i can simply click on the start menu and launch another program while still looking at all these other apps open.

Why do you need to look at all of those other apps while you're launching a new instance of another app? :s Launching an app takes less than a few seconds, especially if one uses the search function.

Its counter intuitive, the Metro UI was designed for mobile devices where each app takes up the full screen,

You tell me not to call you a liar, but this is an outright lie. As many of us have pointed out, the Metro design language started out in Windows Media Center, and it has been included in the Zune software for years. The Zune software is usable and enjoyable to use; they even include a tile-based user interface on the Quickplay screen that (low and behold) works excellently with the mouse and keyboard! :o (Shocking to you, I imagine).

being condescending to me saying "omg you havent tried it yet" doesnt change that fact, i know Metro UI ive been using it for the past 6 months and i know Microsoft ive been using Windows since 1.0...

Me suggesting you cannot judge the usability of something you haven't used and no hardly anything about isn't being condescending; I am simply explaining common sense to you.

[Calum Veteran]

[. . .]

Yeah they just added it! I wouldn't be surprised if they will add it to Win8 with SP1.

[. . .]

I've just watched the Windows 8 demonstrations again and realised they do actually have a search function that appears to cover the entire operating system. A Search button is always present in the sidebar that is always accessible to the right side of the screen.

This is there on the Start Screen, it is there when running any immersive app, and it is there on the desktop. It's looking even more likely that there will be a very easy and quick way to access any app or file in Windows 8 :)

I saw that video a few months ago. And still annoying. I dont know whats more worse, the video itself or the announcer/presenter. Either way I rather die instead use that interfase.

Even though you haven't even tried out this interface? :rolleyes: Why not give something a chance before you judge it?

I hope not. I love the start button. One thing I really dislike about Mac OS X, no start button. The start button neatly tucks away everything, yet it is all accessible from that button (either by browsing or by typing in the search). On Mac OS X, there is spotlight which I basically use but if I'm having a memory block on what to type for what I'm looking for it is less useful.

The same appears to be the case for Windows 8. The Start button neatly tucks everything away, and it is all accessible from the screen that appears when that button is pressed either by browsing or using the search function.

[Apalis]

Ok guys, before you guys continue with your arguments, please go back and watch the video again. Focus on the part where he demonstrated Windows 8 on Samsung S9. The interface was just plain unusable on a keyboard and a mouse.

[ViperAFK]

I'll really have to use it with a kb and mouse to decide for myself how useable it is. Hard to tell from a video.

It does look impressive in many ways though. For tablets it looks extremely intuitive. And the effects seem really fast, and really smooth.

I think there is interesting possibilities for the new UI even on desktop systems. For example I have dual monitors. Would be cool to run aero on one and immersive apps on the other. And some apps like steam would go well as an immersive app IMO.

[KingCrimson]

But it must be horrible!

[Woelfel]

but we don't live in a TV show.

Current technology is never futuristic? Something that is here today can't be futuristic as it's already here?

Both of you missed my point with the futuristic stuff. Without change, there is no progress.

MFH: Just because Office is one program and Windows is an OS doesn't change anything, the example still stands.

Metro, which they got from European train stations, (so no, it wasn't designed for SMALL devices) was meant to give people information easy and at a glance, focusing on typography and simple graphics. An OS should be designed (in my opinion of course) to be out of the way and just let you focus on what you want the most, the applications that you use in a simple way. That's why I believe that MS is using this design LANGUAGE (not UI) across their platforms. Just as Callum, I'm going to give the UI a chance, not only because it's new but because I know it works in other applications and OS's (wp).

[KingCrimson]

Both of you missed my point with the futuristic stuff. Without change, there is no progress.

MFH: Just because Office is one program and Windows is an OS doesn't change anything, the example still stands.

Metro, which they got from European train stations, (so no, it wasn't designed for SMALL devices) was meant to give people information easy and at a glance, focusing on typography and simple graphics. An OS should be designed (in my opinion of course) to be out of the way and just let you focus on what you want the most, the applications that you use in a simple way. That's why I believe that MS is using this design LANGUAGE (not UI) across their platforms. Just as Callum, I'm going to give the UI a chance, not only because it's new but because I know it works in other applications and OS's (wp).

If the typography is so noticeable isn't that taking away FOCUS away from what the user wants? I mean who really wants to look at Metro font anyways? :rolleyes:

[Woelfel]

If the typography is so noticeable isn't that taking away FOCUS away from what the user wants? I mean who really wants to look at Metro font anyways? :rolleyes:

You must not understand the sentence or trolling.

[Calum Veteran]

Ok guys, before you guys continue with your arguments, please go back and watch the video again. Focus on the part where he demonstrated Windows 8 on Samsung S9. The interface was just plain unusable on a keyboard and a mouse.

They show nothing unusable at all. From what they showed of the Series 9, it looks completely usable; however, it is very hard to tell because they don't show us much. Due to them not showing us much, we cannot currently reasonably disagree with Microsoft when they tell us it's usable. We need to wait until we hear more information about Windows 8, see more demonstrations, and/or possibly use it ourselves.

[fix-this!]

the bottom line is if you do not like windows 8 then stick to windows 7... it will be supported for many more years plus im sure it will get another service pack or two.

They show nothing unusable at all. From what they showed of the Series 9, it looks completely usable; however, it is very hard to tell because they don't show us much. Due to them not showing us much, we cannot currently reasonably disagree with Microsoft when they tell us it's unusable. We need to wait until we hear more information about Windows 8, see more demonstrations, and/or possibly use it ourselves.

the metro look will simply not look right on a laptop or desktop with a non touch screen. what we need is a revised aero look with a classic start menu for users that do not want the "wall of tiles".

[Xilo]

People need to stop making stupid rumors based off videos.