Windows 8 HAS NO START MENU

[Calum Veteran]

Since you brought up search. I'd like to hear your rationalisation for how "tiles" are at all useful or more efficient for launching applications than the search in Vista/7.

[. . .]

I wasn't comparing the usefulness of live tiles to the search function. That suggestion alone proves to me that you haven't actually read my posts and understood them. You implied I was being ridiculous by saying that I may find live tiles useful on Windows 8 because I found them useful on Windows Phone, so I simply asked if you would say the same thing if I said the same thing about the search function. I then explained I was talking about the function of the live tiles and not the interface, just like I was talking about the search function and not the interface. I brought up the search feature simply to prove that your point made no sense.

[. . .]

And then you asked what I do. I never asked what you do.

[. . .]

I was merely interested as to what you do.

[. . .]

Please, at least try to understand what I'm posting. I am speaking English after all.

[. . .]

I have posted no misunderstandings of your posts; however, you have consistently misread what I've posted which is why I stated that.

[. . .]

It's an inferior concept being shoehorned in merely for the sake of it. It provides no benefit in the context of launching applications, and demonstrates a lack of effort in creating a new effective replacement for the aging startmenu.

[. . .]

I disagree. It provides benefits in terms of launching applications. One is: Due to the fact live updates are displayed on the tiles, one will know whether they need to launch an application or not. If no Facebook updates are shown, the user will know they don't need to launch the application in order to check their notifications (if that is all they'd like to do); likewise, if no new emails are shown, the user will know they don't have a need to open the app and check their inbox (if they are only wondering whether they have new emails). The live tiles informing the user they do not have to open the app is a great benefit in terms of app launching over the current system in Windows. Currently, the user always has to open the app first to see updates or notifications.

[. . .]

So what -is- the design pricipal/goal of the interface then? Because I've yet to see any use for it in for Windows.

[. . .]

Microsoft haven't said, so it's best to wait and hear it from them. I've mentioned a great use for it above though.

[. . .]

Tiles would make great desktop gadgets/widgets/whatever, but I see no benefit for cramming them into a screen and claiming they're a replacement.

Why do you see no benefit in that if you agree they make a great replacement? It's not "cramming" them onto the screen because they actually fit there; no cramming is involved.

[Woelfel]

IMO, Metro should only belong to phones, tablets and media center. Implementing it on professional PC makes it look like children's toys. The ways they implement it makes it look like they will force upon the users. I don't want my OS to have any social media crap built-in. If I can't find ways to disable it, I will just stick to windows 7. It WILL be another flop :rolleyes:, especially this UI is not even tried and true. WP7 has not even become mainstream yet. Implementing this on a cash cow is simply too risky.

How do you expect it to be "tried and true" if it's not tried?

[Calum Veteran]

By the looks of this, it would be great on my tablet but not so much on my PC.

[. . .]

Why not so much your PC?

[KingCrimson]

Why not so much your PC?

Let's just CHILL until Microsoft shows us the full experience. Right now we're all just speculating about how certain tasks will be performed w/o any real knowledge.

[pack34]

It just boggles my mind that people on a technology enthusiasts forum to be so resistant to change.

[PsYcHoKiLLa]

Windows 8 should have a fully customisable UI, lots of people like to customise/skin their OS, if Microsoft want their OS to look beautiful they should open up the UI so anyone can make a skin for it.

[KingCrimson]

It just boggles my mind that people on a technology enthusiasts forum to be so resistant to change.

Yeah I'm sure in 1900 horse carriage operators were infuriated by the automobile!

Windows 8 should have a fully customisable UI, lots of people like to customise/skin their OS, if Microsoft want their OS to look beautiful they should open up the UI so anyone can make a skin for it.

Nope. That's what Linux is for.

[Calum Veteran]

Let's just CHILL until Microsoft shows us the full experience. Right now we're all just speculating about how certain tasks will be performed w/o any real knowledge.

I would like everyone to stop assuming, but they won't, and I can't just sit here and allow people to post misinformation without refuting them. I'd like to, but I can't.

[Athernar]

I wasn't comparing the usefulness of live tiles to the search function. That suggestion alone proves to me that you haven't actually read my posts and understood them. You implied I was being ridiculous by saying that I may find live tiles useful on Windows 8 because I found them useful on Windows Phone, so I simply asked if you would say the same thing if I said the same thing about the search function. I then explained I was talking about the function of the live tiles and not the interface, just like I was talking about the search function and not the interface. I brought up the search feature simply to prove that your point made no sense.

So what is the point of live tiles then? If they're being touted as a replacement for the start menu then they're going to obviously be compared to existing methodologies.

In which case it falls flat on it's face.

I disagree. It provides benefits in terms of launching applications. One is: Due to the fact live updates are displayed on the tiles, one will know whether they need to launch an application or not. If no Facebook updates are shown, the user will know they don't need to launch the application in order to check their notifications (if that is all they'd like to do); likewise, if no new emails are shown, the user will know they don't have a need to open the app and check their inbox (if they are only wondering whether they have new emails). The live tiles informing the user they do not have to open the app is a great benefit in terms of app launching over the current system in Windows. Currently, the user always has to open the app first to see updates or notifications.

That has zero relevance to launching applications; you're talking about discovery; which is a completely tangental topic.

It's also a highly flawed system, based on the assumption that such feeds and metadata are relevant or applicable to all sorts of applications; I'd wager that the vast majority of applications do not meet such specifications.

If I'm sitting at my PC having no clue what I'm doing there, then great. But what use it that when I know what I want to do?

Microsoft haven't said, so it's best to wait and hear it from them. I've mentioned a great use for it above though.

So you have no idea what the UI is used for, and are waiting for Microsoft to tell you. Right, that's brilliant.

Why do you see no benefit in that if you agree they make a great replacement? It's not "cramming" them onto the screen because they actually fit there; no cramming is involved.

I never said they're a great replacement, I said they would make great gadgets. I don't use gadgets to launch my applications, I use them to gather overviews.

If I know what I want to launch, I don't want to be forced to browse through a bunch of useless overviews.

[pack34]

Yeah I'm sure in 1900 horse carriage operators were infuriated by the automobile!

Nope. That's what Linux is for.

To be fair, we don't know the planned available customizations. However, there's always the third party customization scene to pick up the slack.

[Jen Smith]

Nope. That's what Linux is for.

Odd, I seem to recall seeing a ton of customizations for Windows, from changing the skins to replacing various UI bits entirely.

[TheLegendOfMart]

I would like everyone to stop assuming, but they won't, and I can't just sit here and allow people to post misinformation without refuting them. I'd like to, but I can't.

Who says you are right, you keep belittling people but you wont even for a second entertain the idea that you are wrong.

[ToneKnee]

Before every Windows release there are doomday accusations thrown around. Crap like "This will destroy Microsoft..", "This is a massive gamble", "The UI is horrible and never work!". And so on. But every Windows release has been that much better. And before people say "Vista", Vista gave us Windows 7 which is far beyond Windows XP, I don't care what people say, Windows 7 is better than Windows XP in every way. Windows 8 will probably top Windows 7.

[Nexus-]

It looks confused, and very gimmicky! Trying to bring that superior Windows Phone 7 interface to a PC... sure!

Fixed.

I am a self admitted android fanboy, but I think most will agree that the metro UI present on windows PHONE 7 is lightyears ahead of any other UI so far. Most android UIs are very similar to iPhone. I don't have any problem admitting that, but metro is actually something new that no one prior had tried.

[coth]

Seems like nothing new on the video.

How could MS still pushing up for edge sliding features. That is so huge step back in UI ergonomics and usage. Just imaging a massive number of accidently switched apps. Those slidging edge features is a pure nightmare in Dolphin HD and Firefox Mobile.

They should have an option to show taskbar always on screen. They should also make a button on the taskbar to show task manager with a list of running apps.

And what about notifications? Stepping on the rake once again?

[KingCrimson]

So you have no idea what the UI is used for, and are waiting for Microsoft to tell you. Right, that's brilliant.

As opposed to what? It's Microsoft's OS - they will tell us what the final UX is going to be.

[Apalis]

How do you expect it to be "tried and true" if it's not tried?

Tried but may not be true. WP7 future is still not clear yet :rolleyes:

[Woelfel]

Tried but may not be true. WP7 future is still not clear yet :rolleyes:

If it's not clear yet, why bring it up?

[Danielle1989]

Why were the live tiles created, oh wait for Windows Phone 7, the only reason Windows 8 has this UI is because Microsoft wants a portion of the tablet market, it is PRIMARILY a TOUCH UI, end of story.

Watch the D9 video. Neither S. Sinfofsky nor J. Green said "touch UI". They said its touch first UI that works equally good with keyboard and mouse. So, you are wrong, its not "touch UI".

PS: Live tiles were designed for better representing the content of the app. WP7 was just the first time they appeared. There is nothing touch about them. Its just your thought because they are bigger then icons.

[ToneKnee]

Watch the D9 video. Neither S. Sinfofsky nor J. Green said "touch UI". They said its touch first UI that works equally good with keyboard and mouse. So, you are wrong, its not "touch UI".

PS: Live tiles were designed for better representing the app. WP7 was just the first time they appeared. There is nothing touch about them. Its just your thought because they are bigger then icons.

+1

People should think of them as large icons that show small amounts of information that can be helpful to the user.

[remixedcat]

and i'm sure people are wanting to pay 200 some bucks if they can't even change the colors of the tiles or even have a decent task manager or anything....

[MFH]

Why do you need to run more than 2 apps next to each other at the same time? What benefits could that provide to you? Do you do this frequently or very rarely? I've never needed to do this.

Really? Really??! What are you doing for a living? I'm software developer and have a multitude of programs open at the same time.

A non-complete list includes:

• IDE
  
• Running Program (when Debugging)
  
• Documentations - multiple PDFs at the same time
  
• Browser
  
• Configurations
  
• Database Explorer
  
• IM
  
• Mail Program
  
• Media Player
  
• additional tools (e.g. Snipping Tool, Calculater,?) when needed (e.g. for documenting something)
  

I've just watched the Windows 8 demonstrations again and realised they do actually have a search function that appears to cover the entire operating system. A Search button is always present in the sidebar that is always accessible to the right side of the screen.

You're assuming that! They didn't comment on anything related to that icon! Thought you wanted everybody to stop assuming?

Ok guys, before you guys continue with your arguments, please go back and watch the video again. Focus on the part where he demonstrated Windows 8 on Samsung S9. The interface was just plain unusable on a keyboard and a mouse.

Forget it, he well never accept it?

I agree, I love the Zune software. It's the best looking desktop app MSFT has ever done.

IMHO: Zune is one of worst programs they have. It looks completely out of place and misses features that even WMP has?

i can easily see windows 7 being the new xp as many users will not upgrade for 5+ years.

Win7 may last even longer than XP - hell nobody in the industry needs that UI! Microsoft had to extend the lifetime of XP and now the will definitely have to extend Win7's too?

Yet I'm a designer and developer who designs user interfaces. What do you do?

I design - design in the context of programming not UI? - high performance applications?

I seriously cannot believe you continue to imply Microsoft are lying

Honestly? Microsoft has a long history of lying, it's not that far off to expect them to do?

I would like everyone to stop assuming

How about stopping yourself first?

I am a self admitted android fanboy, but I think most will agree that the metro UI present on windows PHONE 7 is lightyears ahead of any other UI so far.

I recently developed a likening to webOS and nobody can deny that they got multi-tasking on portable devices right - hell the cards ui has been copied by RIM and Microsoft?

[Soulsiphon]

I'm not sure how to start without a Start menu :unsure:

[WolvesHunt]

Before every Windows release there are doomday accusations thrown around. Crap like "This will destroy Microsoft..", "This is a massive gamble",

steven Him self said "the most riskiest windows Ever"

So to me that sounds like MS is attempting something that's never been fully done and have no idea how the Public will respawn to it .

All in All Windows 8 is A major gamble then any other OS ever Dev form MS

[Calum Veteran]

So what is the point of live tiles then? If they're being touted as a replacement for the start menu then they're going to obviously be compared to existing methodologies.

In which case it falls flat on it's face.

[. . .]

No, it doesn't fall flat on its face because again, you don't have a clue. I've suggested you actually read up on Windows 8, but it appears you haven't. Windows 8 has a search function just like Windows 7, so why would one reasonably compare the live tiles of Windows 8 with the search function of Windows 7? They wouldn't; it makes no sense! It makes much more sense to compare the search functions of both operating systems.

[. . .]

That has zero relevance to launching applications; you're talking about discovery; which is a completely tangental topic.

It's also a highly flawed system, based on the assumption that such feeds and metadata are relevant or applicable to all sorts of applications; I'd wager that the vast majority of applications do not meet such specifications.

[. . .]

The majority of applications the average user cares about probably meet such specifications; an email program (or webmail app), an instant messenger Twitter, Facebook, a news app, a web browser, and a music player are the applications the average user will most likely use on a frequent basis. Of course not all applications will, but that is the beauty of live tiles: Not all of them are live, so there isn't information overload. It has worked very well on Windows Phone, so the concept is very likely to work just as well on Windows 8 (yes, I'm comparing the concept again, not the user interface). Either way, some of the applications people use will meet these specifications and you asked for a benefit in terms of launching an app. This is a major benefit in terms of launching an app because it saves the user time and they don't have the launch the app as much as they would otherwise. This may be about discovery, but it's also about launching and you cannot reasonably deny this. You asked for a benefit; I gave you one. Launching an app simply involves clicking a button; how many benefits could there be in regard to that? Do you fancy giving me any benefits that Windows 7 provides over what we've seen of Windows 8 in terms of app launching then please because it appears to me that there are none?

[. . .]

If I'm sitting at my PC having no clue what I'm doing there, then great. But what use it that when I know what I want to do?

[. . .]

It's plenty of use because all of that information is shown at either the click of a button or the press of a keyboard key; it's not just about sitting staring at the screen. All of that information is there for the user in a split second. Not only that, but for all we know, there may well be some kind of notification system like on Windows Phone that will inform the user of notifications when they are not on the Start Screen (or even while they are as well). Furthermore, those of us who have more than one screen (2 or 3) could leave the Start Screen on one of those screens quite frequently and be benefited by seeing that information live, saving us time, and further aiding our enjoyment of using the operating system.

[. . .]

So you have no idea what the UI is used for, and are waiting for Microsoft to tell you. Right, that's brilliant.

[. . .]

Clearly not because I'm not as closed minded as you are. I'm well aware of why I think they've changed the Start Menu into this beautiful, useful new Start Screen, but I said it's best not to assume until Microsoft say. You see, unlike you, I don't assume anything until I know the facts. You've assumed a hell of a lot when Microsoft have told us hardly anything about the operating system. I personally believe they've added the Start Screen in place of the Start Menu for a few reasons: 1) Aiding in increasing our productivity; 2) Providing us all of the information we'd like or require there and then, straight away, without need to enter certain applications; 3) Aiding our enjoyment in using the operating system. Those are just a few reasons, but there are probably more. I've explained each of those, including the increase in productivity, earlier in the thread, so please read those posts of mine instead of asking me because I'm getting sick of repeating myself.

[. . .]

I never said they're a great replacement, I said they would make great gadgets. I don't use gadgets to launch my applications, I use them to gather overviews.

[. . .]

:rolleyes: You clearly didn't get my point. This is what is so great about the live tiles: They have more than one purpose. While the icons in the Start Menu are essentially there to launch the app only, live tiles aren't just there for launching apps, they're there to provide an overview about what has happened on the service we're interested about, or even what that app has been doing while we've not had it open. Live tiles can be used as a replacement for gadgets, but they can also be used as a replacement for app launching; that is part of their beauty. Why just look at part of the solution when one can think outside the box? Some things can have two purposes and can do both jobs equally well.

If I know what I want to launch, I don't want to be forced to browse through a bunch of useless overviews.

You aren't forced to do this! You can pin apps in the order you'd like to use them, so you can easily find what you're looking for always! Not only that, but there is a search function everywhere in the entire operating system; it's there on the right side of the screen, you just need to swipe to bring it into view. Then, you can search and very quickly find the program you're after to launch it. Even in the current Start Menu you can only pin a certain number of apps before you must click All programs, and that is about the same amount of apps that can be pinned on the first part of the new Start Screen (although more apps can be pinned on the Start Screen than can be pinned on the Start Menu), so why are you even complaining about the incorrect possibility that apps will be harder to find on the Start Screen? You can pin more and you can search just like on Windows 7!

To add: Just because you don't like the overviews, it doesn't mean Microsoft should remove that feature for the many of us that love them, enjoy them, and find them very useful. I'm not saying this is you (although it sounds like it if you don't care about updates): If you don't care about receiving your email and news straight away, and if you're not very social, you might be pinning apps that don't have overviews or live tile capabilities anyway. If you are, the size of the tiles will not hinder you in regard to finding apps because you can pin more apps than you can on Windows 7 and there is a search function.

I'm not sure how to start without a Start menu :unsure:

You are now initially taken to a Start Screen that should help you more than a less functional, less useful Start Menu :) It even says 'Start' at the top, so you know it's where you should start :happy: Haha!

Who says you are right, you keep belittling people but you wont even for a second entertain the idea that you are wrong.

I am right for one reason: I am not assuming like a lot of you are, I am simply speculating. That is why I am right. My speculation could well be wrong, but speculation doesn't have to be right (that's the whole point of speculation). It is wrong to assume how Windows 8 is going to be when they've told us hardly anything about it, and when you haven't tried it out. That is your problem and that is the problem many of you have.

I am not belittling people who treat me with respect. You and a couple of other members have spoken to me rudely and/or tried to erroneously ridicule me when you've all been wrong (wrong due to your assumptions of the operating system), so I've explained to you all how you're wrong and treated you in the same way you've treated me.