Windows 8 HAS NO START MENU

[MFH]

Do you fancy giving me any benefits that Windows 7 provides over what we've seen of Windows 8 in terms of app launching then please because it appears to me that there are none?

You know it's the other way around. You must offer the users a benefit in using the Win8 way and that's something that's lacking. Win8 must beat Win7 not the other way 'round!

Not only that, but for all we know, there may well be some kind of notification system like on Windows Phone that will inform the user of notifications when they are not on the Start Screen (or even while they are as well).

Pure assumption 'cause we know nothing in that regard!

You see, unlike you, I don't assume anything until I know the facts.

LOL! Your post are nothing but assumptions!

1) Aiding in increasing our productivity

1. thing were it failes for powerusers?

Some things can have two purposes and can do both jobs equally well.

Tiles - Jack of all trades, master of none!

You can pin apps in the order you'd like to use them, so you can easily find what you're looking for always!

Which will involve heavy panning for those of us that use a lot of different programs?

Not only that, but there is a search function everywhere in the entire operating system; it's there on the right side of the screen, you just need to swipe to bring it into view.

2 things:

1. assumption alert!

2. WinKey + Type vs Swipe + Click + Type - what do you think will be faster?

Even in the current Start Menu you can only pin a certain number of apps before you must click All programs, and that is about the same amount of apps that can be pinned on the first part of the new Start Screen (although more apps can be pinned on the Start Screen than can be pinned on the Start Menu), so why are you even complaining about the incorrect possibility that apps will be harder to find on the Start Screen? You can pin more and you can search just like on Windows 7!

People still pin to the start menu???

Just because you don't like the overviews, it doesn't mean Microsoft should remove that feature for the many of us that love them, enjoy them, and find them very useful.

LOL! They are doing exactly that! They are removing the start menu for christ's sake!

You are now initially taken to a Start Screen that should help you more than a less functional, less useful Start Menu :)

Funny the Start Screen still appears to be way less functional for the poweruser's use-case?

[MFH]

[1] I am right for one reason: I am not assuming like a lot of you are, I am simply speculating.

[2] It is wrong to assume how Windows 8 is going to be when they've told us hardly anything about it, and when you haven't tried it out.

[3] I am not belittling people who treat me with respect.

[4] when you've all been wrong (wrong due to your assumptions of the operating system)

[1] LOL!!!!!

[2] You're doing that the whole time just like the rest of us!

[3] You've belittled so many people in these threads I stopped counting?

[4] Funny how you KNOW what's TRUE and we are all just plain WRONG?

[Calum Veteran]

Really? Really??! What are you doing for a living? I'm software developer and have a multitude of programs open at the same time.

A non-complete list includes:

• IDE
  
• Running Program (when Debugging)
  
• Documentations - multiple PDFs at the same time
  
• Browser
  
• Configurations
  
• Database Explorer
  
• IM
  
• Mail Program
  
• Media Player
  
• additional tools (e.g. Snipping Tool, Calculater,?) when needed (e.g. for documenting something)
  

I tend to have all of those open at the same time, but not on the same screen at once. Most of those are minimised. What benefit could I have to not minimising them and having them all on screen at the same time? I'm sure it would provide me with no benefit. If I need to access one of those apps, I will click on it in the Taskbar. What they've shown of the immersive experience in Windows 8 doesn't limit the amount of apps that can be open, it just appears to limit the amount of apps one can have on the screen at any one time to 2.

You're assuming that! They didn't comment on anything related to that icon! Thought you wanted everybody to stop assuming?

:rolleyes: Is this how you usually discuss with people? If so, I feel sorry for them. I've proven you wrong, so instead of admitting it like a decent person, you decide to erroneously accuse me of being a hypocrite. It's this simple: A button that's labelled Search on the Start Screen obviously searches the Start Screen (possibly among other objects such as files). I'm suggesting people shouldn't assume things we haven't been shown and that aren't logical. We've been shown the Search button so it is logical to conclude that it searches the place it is located. We've been told by Microsoft this interface works well with a keyboard and mouse, so it's not logical to conclude it doesn't at this stage. I've now learnt I shouldn't assume about your intelligence. I assumed you would understand that I meant logical assumptions were fine, but illogical ones aren't. You suggesting I shouldn't assume about the Search button is just like you saying that if we saw a button that said "Shut down" on the Start Screen I shouldn't assume it shuts down the PC. You do understand the difference between logical assumptions and illogical assumptions, don't you? Yes, they could well have changed the behaviour of the Shut down button, but it's unlikely, and it's still logical to assume they haven't. It's not logical to assume Microsoft are lying when we have no way of knowing!

Forget it, he well never accept it?

:rolleyes: I will accept it if it turns out to be true when I've seen more demonstrations or used it myself. Of course I won't accept it when you people have just made it up! I cannot believe the lack of intelligence in this thread! You haven't used it, and we know hardly anything about it! There haven't even been any demonstrations shown with a mouse and keyboard, so how can you dangerously assume like that?!

IMHO: Zune is one of worst programs they have. It looks completely out of place and misses features that even WMP has?

It looks out of place in Windows currently, but it won't come Windows 8, as you should know from what we've seen of the Windows 8 user interface.

Honestly? Microsoft has a long history of lying, it's not that far off to expect them to do?

Please provide some sources to back this up. If you're claiming a long history, there must be many easy to find sources. As you're the one making the accusation, you need to find the sources for your claim to hold any weight. Even so, it would be stupid of a business to claim their operating system works well for the majority of their users (those with a mouse and keyboard) if it doesn't and they were just focussing on the tablet market. It could be suicide. It's possible I'd switch if Windows 8 doesn't work well with a mouse and keyboard (it would depend how well the touchscreen devices work and how big of a touchscreen I could get).

[. . .]

How about stopping yourself first?

[. . .]

Do you understand what the word 'assume' means, or have you just not been reading my posts again? Remember, I'm talking about illogical assumptions, not logical assumptions (e.g. A search button will be linked to a search function :rolleyes:).

[LightShadow]

Still find it funny that people are still arguing over this. I'm inbetween, although I love the UI and think it's sleek and fits in with Microsoft's other 2 products. It may be a hassle if you have a lot of applications. But as said multiple times, you don't know much yet. We have one video and a few demo videos. The one where he showed it on the laptop and touchpad was pre-release remember! Also the fact that he was live on stage, and it's hard to get your fingers in the right place on them sometimes, would have been easier to demo with a mouse.

All I say is wait for BUILD when we'll have the stockload of information and then wait till YOU get your hands on it till decide. Not videos of someone else playing around with it, also the current betas we have no are in no way showing us what the RTM will look like. The builds Microsoft have showed are not even pre-beta. So don't complain yet when there is still a year or more development to go.

[Calum Veteran]

and i'm sure people are wanting to pay 200 some bucks if they can't even change the colors of the tiles or even have a decent task manager or anything....

:rolleyes: This is getting ridiculous now. Why do you continue to comment incorrectly on Windows 8 when you clearly don't know everything about it? Microsoft stated at their Worldwide Partner Conference this week that we can change tile colours and other things. Stop assuming! Microsoft haven't said anything about a task manager, so why have you mentioned that when you know they still have much more to tell us?

You know it's the other way around. You must offer the users a benefit in using the Win8 way and that's something that's lacking. Win8 must beat Win7 not the other way 'round!

:rolleyes: I have done! Many times in this thread! I've explained why live tiles are more beneficial than static icons! Why don't you just please read my posts?

Pure assumption 'cause we know nothing in that regard!

It is speculation, not assumption! I really don't have time to educate you, so please stop replying to me if you really require this kind of education. I suggest you look up the definitions of 'assume' and 'speculate'.

LOL! Your post are nothing but assumptions!

Stop lying! I'm sick of you lying and posting unintelligent things just because you find it hard to understand a lot in life. I've told you, I don't have time to educate you, but: I am posting speculation, not assumptions. Educate yourself! I'm getting sick of it!

1. thing were it failes for powerusers?

Power users don't wish for increased productivity? I'm a power user and I'd love my productivity to be increased. Not to mention, I was just providing 3 benefits there. How can you reasonably take something that would be a benefit to some users, and claim that means it fails for other users? :blink: That might not benefit power users (although I believe it would), but it certainly wouldn't hinder them and therefore doesn't fail for them. There are likely benefits to power users, but I haven't provided all of the benefits because we know hardly anything about the operating system!

Tiles - Jack of all trades, master of none!

:rolleyes:

Which will involve heavy panning for those of us that use a lot of different programs?

I reckon it would take less time to pan than it does to look down a long list of programs in the All programs section of the Start Menu. None of us know, so you cannot assume. Anyway, panning is not needed if you use the search function (most likely).

2 things:

1. assumption alert!

2. WinKey + Type vs Swipe + Click + Type - what do you think will be faster?

1) It's not an assumption! Don't lie! It's on all of the Windows 8 demonstrations. They swipe to the right while they're on all aspects of the operating system and it's there. Stop replying to me. You're just lying now, and I'm sick of it!

2) The first, but only by a few milliseconds (I imagine). I'm not bothered if something takes just a few milliseconds longer. If it took seconds longer, then it might be a problem, but especially when the Start Screen provides all of the benefits it does, a few milliseconds is nothing. No one would notice a few milliseconds, and you cannot deny this. We don't have the capacity as humans to notice a difference in milliseconds.

Reply continued in a subsequent post as the forums told me I was posting more than the allowed number of quote blocks

[MFH]

I tend to have all of those open at the same time, but not on the same screen at once. Most of those are minimised.

You still don't get it! I'm not minimizing, neither maximing! None of the programs in the list need to be full screen! They are all there, all the time, no switching! Finally get it? Or do I have to draw you a f****** picture?

What benefit could I have to not minimising them and having them all on screen at the same time?

Again: Other way around: what would be the benefit in terms of multitasking in minimizing??

I'm sure it would provide me with no benefit.

Well that doesn't support my workflow, does it??

If I need to access one of those apps, I will click on it in the Taskbar.

Are you about to explain how a tabbar works?

it just appears to limit the amount of apps one can have on the screen at any one time to 2.

Which is a major problem if the workflow is not the same as yours?

:rolleyes: Is this how you usually discuss with people?

Not normally, but you are resistent to other people's opinion, so f*** it!

We've been told by Microsoft this interface works well with a keyboard and mouse

You know what we were also told by Microsoft: That .NET is the future! Guess what: Recently they haven't done anything in that regard! No mention on W8, no mention on the future of Silverlight,?

I've now learnt I shouldn't assume about your intelligence. I assumed you would understand that I meant logical assumptions were fine, but illogical ones aren't.

Problem is: You are defining what are logical assumptions the whole time!

You do understand the difference between logical assumptions and illogical assumptions, don't you?

Just as I said at the other thread: You are belittling so many people it's embarassing, even more as you're a moderator?

It's not logical to assume Microsoft are lying when we have no way of knowing!

No it isn't </sarcasm>

I will accept it if it turns out to be true when I've seen more demonstrations or used it myself.

So: Your assumptions == valid until unproven; All other assumptions == invalid until proven otherwise?

You haven't used it, and we know hardly anything about it! There haven't even been any demonstrations shown with a mouse and keyboard, so how can you dangerously assume like that?!

Neither have you! And there was a presentation of keyboard and touchpad and it sucked? Hell he ran to the next machine immediately!

It looks out of place in Windows currently, but it won't come Windows 8, as you should know from what we've seen of the Windows 8 user interface.

Will look out of place there too 'cause it's not a full screen app, so it appears in the classic UI => out of place with AERO. Unless you're assuming that they will make it a full screen app, wof which we to date have no information?

Please provide some sources to back this up. If you're claiming a long history, there must be many easy to find sources.

I could start with all the FUD about other companies products? but know what? I know that discussing based on facts with you is entirely pointless?

Even so, it would be stupid of a business to claim their operating system works well for the majority of their users (those with a mouse and keyboard) if it doesn't

They did that with Vista! Yes it was the hardware vendors' fault, but they claimed it was fully functional!

It's possible I'd switch if Windows 8 doesn't work well with a mouse and keyboard (it would depend how well the touchscreen devices work and how big of a touchscreen I could get).

Happy typing on your touch screen :)

Do you understand what the word 'assume' means, or have you just not been reading my posts again? Remember, I'm talking about illogical assumptions, not logical assumptions (e.g. A search button will be linked to a search function :rolleyes:).

Yep and you're defining what's illogical - so what's the point of talking to you?

And concerning the search: I did only remember the icon, not that there was actual text underneath it? And than it's NOT clear what it is, could even be a zoom functionality?

[Calum Veteran]

People still pin to the start menu???

Obviously some people will, but I was comparing the pinning of apps to the Start Screen with the pinning of apps to the Start Menu because it makes sense. If you don't pin apps to the Start Menu then you certainly cannot complain that it will be harder to find apps because there is obviously a search function on the start screen (logical assumption, remember, not an illogical one).

LOL! They are doing exactly that! They are removing the start menu for christ's sake!

Of course they are because replacing the Start Menu with the Start Screen appears to provide no functional disadvantages to users; however, removing the overviews would because the overviews provide great functional benefit as I have pointed out.

Funny the Start Screen still appears to be way less functional for the poweruser's use-case?

Explain. You haven't explained this. I've explained why it is more functional, so it is your turn to explain why you believe the Start Menu is more functional to the power user (something I vehemently disagree with and look forward to refuting).

[1] LOL!!!!!

[2] You're doing that the whole time just like the rest of us!

[3] You've belittled so many people in these threads I stopped counting?

[4] Funny how you KNOW what's TRUE and we are all just plain WRONG?

I've told you, I'm talking about illogical assumptions, not logical assumptions. I really cannot believe I have to coach you through this thread. I don't have time! :/ I've belittled people like you because of the way you've spoken to me. A few of you have treated me with disrespect even though I'm the only one out of us 4 who is posting reason. Other members in the thread are posting reason, but you 3 aren't. You 3 have spoken to me rudely, and tried to erroneously ridicule me when I'm simply posting reasonable responses and you aren't.

As others have pointed out, it's likely none of us will know much about the operating system until the BUILD conference, so we can only make logical assumptions or speculation; we cannot make illogical assumptions. How are you finding that hard to understand? I've told you: I don't know what's true (I am just speculating or making the logical assumptions I was talking about), yet you haven't listened and said "Funny how you KNOW what's TRUE and we are all just plain WRONG?"

MFH, please stop responding to me. I only wish to discuss with reasonable people, not people who clearly misunderstand a lot and don't have a clue what they're talking about.

[Athernar]

No, it doesn't fall flat on its face because again, you don't have a clue. I've suggested you actually read up on Windows 8, but it appears you haven't. Windows 8 has a search function just like Windows 7, so why would one reasonably compare the live tiles of Windows 8 with the search function of Windows 7? They wouldn't; it makes no sense! It makes much more sense to compare the search functions of both operating systems.

Yes, it does. Get a clue.

The majority of applications the average user cares about probably meet such specifications; an email program (or webmail app), an instant messenger Twitter, Facebook, a news app, a web browser, and a music player are the applications the average user will most likely use on a frequent basis. Of course not all applications will, but that is the beauty of live tiles: Not all of them are live, so there isn't information overload. It has worked very well on Windows Phone, so the concept is very likely to work just as well on Windows 8 (yes, I'm comparing the concept again, not the user interface). Either way, some of the applications people use will meet these specifications and you asked for a benefit in terms of launching an app. This is a major benefit in terms of launching an app because it saves the user time and they don't have the launch the app as much as they would otherwise. This may be about discovery, but it's also about launching and you cannot reasonably deny this. You asked for a benefit; I gave you one. Launching an app simply involves clicking a button; how many benefits could there be in regard to that? Do you fancy giving me any benefits that Windows 7 provides over what we've seen of Windows 8 in terms of app launching then please because it appears to me that there are none?

You are so hilariously clueless.

None of that corporate blather above has any relevance or use to me. I don't use Facebook or Twitter, and the majority of the applications I use don't have any use for the above.

Quick keystroke search, bam; got my app. Didn't even look at anything. So pray tell how shoehorning in WP7 UI will at all improve that workflow?

It's plenty of use because all of that information is shown at either the click of a button or the press of a keyboard key; it's not just about sitting staring at the screen. All of that information is there for the user in a split second. Not only that, but for all we know, there may well be some kind of notification system like on Windows Phone that will inform the user of notifications when they are not on the Start Screen (or even while they are as well). Furthermore, those of us who have more than one screen (2 or 3) could leave the Start Screen on one of those screens quite frequently and be benefited by seeing that information live, saving us time, and further aiding our enjoyment of using the operating system.

Don't want it, don't need it. No use at all.

Clearly not because I'm not as closed minded as you are. I'm well aware of why I think they've changed the Start Menu into this beautiful, useful new Start Screen, but I said it's best not to assume until Microsoft say. You see, unlike you, I don't assume anything until I know the facts. You've assumed a hell of a lot when Microsoft have told us hardly anything about the operating system. I personally believe they've added the Start Screen in place of the Start Menu for a few reasons: 1) Aiding in increasing our productivity; 2) Providing us all of the information we'd like or require there and then, straight away, without need to enter certain applications; 3) Aiding our enjoyment in using the operating system. Those are just a few reasons, but there are probably more. I've explained each of those, including the increase in productivity, earlier in the thread, so please read those posts of mine instead of asking me because I'm getting sick of repeating myself.

If I'm close-minded, you're a mindless drooling fanboy sockpuppet.

How can Microsoft provide me the information I'd like or require? Oh wait, they can't because I don't want any information.

:rolleyes: You clearly didn't get my point. This is what is so great about the live tiles: They have more than one purpose. While the icons in the Start Menu are essentially there to launch the app only, live tiles aren't just there for launching apps, they're there to provide an overview about what has happened on the service we're interested about, or even what that app has been doing while we've not had it open. Live tiles can be used as a replacement for gadgets, but they can also be used as a replacement for app launching; that is part of their beauty. Why just look at part of the solution when one can think outside the box? Some things can have two purposes and can do both jobs equally well.

I don't want an overview. I don't want alternative purposes I want to just launch my app so I can get to work. Not pretend to be a "designer" and circlejerk over the "design language" of the OS.

You aren't forced to do this! You can pin apps in the order you'd like to use them, so you can easily find what you're looking for always! Not only that, but there is a search function everywhere in the entire operating system; it's there on the right side of the screen, you just need to swipe to bring it into view. Then, you can search and very quickly find the program you're after to launch it. Even in the current Start Menu you can only pin a certain number of apps before you must click All programs, and that is about the same amount of apps that can be pinned on the first part of the new Start Screen (although more apps can be pinned on the Start Screen than can be pinned on the Start Menu), so why are you even complaining about the incorrect possibility that apps will be harder to find on the Start Screen? You can pin more and you can search just like on Windows 7!

To add: Just because you don't like the overviews, it doesn't mean Microsoft should remove that feature for the many of us that love them, enjoy them, and find them very useful. I'm not saying this is you (although it sounds like it if you don't care about updates): If you don't care about receiving your email and news straight away, and if you're not very social, you might be pinning apps that don't have overviews or live tile capabilities anyway. If you are, the size of the tiles will not hinder you in regard to finding apps because you can pin more apps than you can on Windows 7 and there is a search function.

Just because you like overviews, doesn't give you the right to be a facist and try to force it down everyone's throat.

The Start Screen is a far more bloated approach to launching applications, desktop shortcuts and pinning is not a sustainable or even contextually relevant replacement.

[MFH]

I have done! Many times in this thread! I've explained why live tiles are more beneficial than static icons! Why don't you just please read my posts?

I read your post, all of them, but you still seem to miss my point. I've never seen static icons in years, as I'm using programs, not j****** off to some overview?

And you didn't explain why they are beneficial on a general basis, you just expressed why they may fit your workflow?

It is speculation, not assumption! I really don't have time to educate you, so please stop replying to me if you really require this kind of education. I suggest you look up the definitions of 'assume' and 'speculate'.

Neither is based on fact?

[1] Power users don't wish for increased productivity?

[2] I'm a power user and I'd love my productivity to be increased.

[1] Read my post! I never said that powerusers don't want increased productivity. I sait that this UI doesn't offer it!

[2] If there is just one thing I learned in these threads it that you aren't?

How can you reasonably take something that would be a benefit to some users, and claim that means it fails for other users?

How can you ignore that they take something out that is central to power users and claim that that's no problem?

I reckon it would take less time to pan than it does to look down a long list of programs in the All programs section of the Start Menu.

Funny, haven't done that ever since Vista?

I'm not bothered if something takes just a few milliseconds longer.

Good that it's only you that has to be asked in that regard. Making something slower is exactly the thing that should never happen!

If you don't pin apps to the Start Menu then you certainly cannot complain that it will be harder to find apps because there is obviously a search function on the start screen

And we already established that this one is slower than the way we currently search?

I don't have time! :/ I've belittled people like you because of the way you've spoken to me. A few of you have treated me with disrespect even though I'm the only one out of us 4 who is posting reason. Other members in the thread are posting reason, but you 3 aren't. You 3 have spoken to me rudely, and tried to erroneously ridicule me when I'm simply posting reasonable responses and you aren't.

So what's your reason? Is it that you know better than all of us? I never attacked you, but endured your belittling for quite a while now?

As others have pointed out, it's likely none of us will know much about the operating system until the BUILD conference, so we can only make logical assumptions or speculation; we cannot make illogical assumptions.

MFH, please stop responding to me. I only wish to discuss with reasonable people, not people who clearly misunderstand a lot and don't have a clue what they're talking about.

Either ignore me or explain to me how you're the one to decides what's a logical an what's an illogical assumption?

None of that corporate blather above has any relevance or use to me. I don't use Facebook or Twitter, and the majority of the applications I use don't have any use for the above.

Quick keystroke search, bam; got my app. Didn't even look at anything. So pray tell how shoehorning in WP7 UI will at all improve that workflow?

?

If I'm close-minded, you're a mindless drooling fanboy sockpuppet.

How can Microsoft provide me the information I'd like or require? Oh wait, they can't because I don't want any information.

?

I don't want an overview. I don't want alternative purposes I want to just launch my app so I can get to work. Not pretend to be a "designer" and circlejerk over the "design language" of the OS.

?

Just because you like overviews, doesn't give you the right to be a facist and try to force it down everyone's throat.

?

The Start Screen is a far more bloated approach to launcing applications, desktop shortcuts and pinning is not a sustainable or even contextually relevant replacement.

Thanks, I couldn't agree more!

[Keyboard Cowboy]

Keep going guys, this is hilarious! :laugh:

[Calum Veteran]

You still don't get it! I'm not minimizing, neither maximing! None of the programs in the list need to be full screen! They are all there, all the time, no switching! Finally get it? Or do I have to draw you a f****** picture?

What?! I clearly understood what you were on about. What in the hell made you think I didn't understand?! You told me how you set up the programs on your screen (as a software engineer), and so I told you how I do it differently (as a software engineer). Where's the problem? I was pointing out that I do it differently, and I have no need for more than 2 programs on the screen at once. You're not the only computer user in the world. Obviously, Microsoft should think of a way to cater for the use case of having more than 2 apps on the screen at once, but we don't even yet know whether they are doing that or not because they haven't told us much about the operating system. You're acting like they're definitely not going to cater for your use case :rolleyes: It's fine to suggest what they should do based on what you've seen, but to assume they won't do that, at this stage, is ridiculous.

Again: Other way around: what would be the benefit in terms of multitasking in minimizing??

The benefit is I can fit much more on the screen. Even on a 23" monitor with a 1080p resolution, I prefer to have only 2 programs open at any one time (on that one screen).

Well that doesn't support my workflow, does it??

No, so it makes sense for Microsoft to ensure they cater for all use cases. However, they haven't stated that they won't, so why are you acting like they won't?

Are you about to explain how a tabbar works?

A tabbar? Why?

Which is a major problem if the workflow is not the same as yours?

Of course; however, Microsoft haven't said they aren't going to cater for your workflow, so what is the problem here? Why are you acting like they have said they won't cater for it?

Not normally, but you are resistent to other people's opinion, so f*** it!

I'm not resistant to anyone's opinion. You don't seem to understand anything I'm saying; either that, or you aren't reading my posts correctly. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and everyone uses Windows differently; however, you are illogically assuming things that Microsoft hasn't even confirmed, and that is dangerous. Reasonable people wait to hear the facts and/or wait until they've tried an operating system out before concluding whether it will be usable to them. Reasonable people do not illogically assume before they have the facts; however, they often speculate or make logical assumptions.

You know what we were also told by Microsoft: That .NET is the future! Guess what: Recently they haven't done anything in that regard! No mention on W8, no mention on the future of Silverlight,?

.NET was the future and present. For at least 10 years (2001 - present). 10 years is a long time for the life of a technology like that. Have other similar technologies been as popular for longer? Of course, but 10 years is still a long time. Even if you believe 10 years isn't that long, Microsoft shouldn't hinder Windows' development capabilities because of that. I've only become familiar with .NET Framework within the last 4 years, but I have no problem moving on and learning another framework if Microsoft are going to release an improved one.

They haven't mentioned anything about it, so why does that appear to concern you? Why not just wait until they do talk about it.

Just as I said at the other thread: You are belittling so many people it's embarassing, even more as you're a moderator?

I don't belittle anyone who treats me with respect. I'm becoming frustrated at your replies because not only did you start by treating me with disrespect, but you are posting idiotic responses that prove you often don't understand my replies.

No it isn't </sarcasm>

So: Your assumptions == valid until unproven; All other assumptions == invalid until proven otherwise?

No. How are you failing to understand this? I am speculating that Windows 8 will be usable. Speculating. Some of you are assuming it won't be. Assuming. Again, I ask: Please stop replying to me. It is too draining debating with someone who does not post reason and logic.

Continued in subsequent post.

[Calum Veteran]

Neither have you! And there was a presentation of keyboard and touchpad and it sucked? Hell he ran to the next machine immediately!

There was not a presentation of this with the screen shown to us while he was using a touchpad or keyboard. If I have somehow missed it, please link me to it, because it is not on any of the videos I have seen. All I saw was them talk next to the Samsung Series 9, and Walk Mossberg played with the Series 9, but the screen was not shown to us while Mossberg was playing on it. From what I can tell, this is a blatant lie from you.

Of course I haven't used it; however, unlike you, I'm not assuming anything about the usability of it. I am noting what Microsoft said in terms of the usability, and I am speculating.

Will look out of place there too 'cause it's not a full screen app, so it appears in the classic UI => out of place with AERO. Unless you're assuming that they will make it a full screen app, wof which we to date have no information?

Are you seriously suggesting they're going to release a version of the Zune software that is exactly the same as the current when Windows 8 is released? The current version has been out since 2009. . . . That is not consistent with Zune's development cycle. I speculate they will code a new version in the same style as the other immersive apps. It might not even be called Zune. This is of course speculation.

I could start with all the FUD about other companies products? but know what? I know that discussing based on facts with you is entirely pointless?

You clearly don't go on facts; you've shown that by your illogical assumptions. When you don't have the facts, you illogically assume; that is ridiculous. I am going only on facts here; if I don't have the facts, I speculate. If a logical assumption can be made, I make it, because I am a person of reason.

They did that with Vista! Yes it was the hardware vendors' fault, but they claimed it was fully functional!

It was fully functional. Are you seriously claiming Windows Vista was not fully functional? Microsoft gave us the hardware requirements; if you had hardware it didn't function well on, it must not have been within the requirements, or it must have been a problem on your end, because I purchased my first laptop as soon as Vista was released and it worked great. This laptop only had the minimum requirements needed to run Aero glass.

Happy typing on your touch screen :)

Typing on Windows Phone's touchscreen keyboard has been nothing but a joy, so I'm confident I'll be fine with Windows 8's, especially as they have added the thumb keyboard.

Problem is: You are defining what are logical assumptions the whole time!

Yep and you're defining what's illogical - so what's the point of talking to you?

Yes, don't speak to me please because your posts are unreasonable. Who should define what is illogical? What do you want me to do? Are you trying to claim that it is logical to assume Windows 8 won't be usable with a mouse and keyboard when we've been shown nothing about its usability with a mouse and keyboard, and when we haven't used it?

And concerning the search: I did only remember the icon, not that there was actual text underneath it? And than it's NOT clear what it is, could even be a zoom functionality?

It's logical to assume a search function will allow one to search. . . .

[Calum Veteran]

I don't have time to reply to all of this any more, so I'm out. None of us know how usable Windows 8 will be on a desktop or laptop with a mouse and keyboard; those of you who assume it will be unusable already appear to be beyond help, and I'm not going to convince you to give it a fair chance, so I'm not going to waste my time any longer.

Athernar, it's fine if you don't have any use for the live tiles, but as I have pointed out, you don't have to acknowledge them. The Start Screen still provides a place to pin, launch, and search for apps, so not having the Start Menu should not functionally hinder you (from what you've described about your use of the Start Menu). You may not like the look of it, but Microsoft cannot please everyone in terms of aesthetics. Many of us love the look of Windows 8 and find the look of Windows 7 to be horrible in comparison. I will no longer reply to you here because we're not getting anywhere. I just hope you actually give the Start Screen and immersive experience a fair chance and try it first. TheLegendOfMart and MFH, I hope you also decide to actually give it a chance; wait until you hear the facts and try it out.

[Slammers]

this place is the butts

[Denis W. Veteran]

The last few pages of this thread are pretty nasty.

I'm going to lock this thread for now until I (or someone else) have/has the opportunity to clean this thread up.

[Thread temporarily closed]