A few hints & tricks for build 8102

By FaiKee
in The Fast Ring (Insider Previews)

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Grand Master

Nogib

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Posted

I had ran thru the other thread, and agree with some members : this is progress, try to adapt to it, use the old thing as a temporary way until you get use to Metro.

Impossible. Metro only has about 1/10 (or less) the shortcuts that are in the standard start menu from a clean install. Want to run notepad? It's not shown in Metro! Want to run wordpad? It's not shown in Metro! And on, and on, and on. I can only imagine how far out the damn thing will have to scroll right once someone has a decent number of programs installed. As it stands now in it's current state in this dev build, Metro is full of fail.

Grand Master

Eric Veteran

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Is there some way to change my account name? It has my full name, and I just want my first name. It seems I have to alter my Live information, but I'd rather not do that.

It's under the Users and Accounts category in the standard control panel. (Look at the bottom of the Metro CP)

The option you want is the one to change to a local account.

Grand Master

Quillz

Posted
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It's under the Users and Accounts category in the standard control panel. (Look at the bottom of the Metro CP)

The option you want is the one to change to a local account.

Will that take away the integration with the Live services, though? Because I'd like to retain that and just alter my account name.

Grand Master

Roger H. Veteran

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Will that take away the integration with the Live services, though? Because I'd like to retain that and just alter my account name.

I guess it pulls that from live services. I know choice is good but does it matter though? There isn't much of a security risk I guess :D I've always used my full name on my PC as that makes it personal again :)

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~Johnny

Posted
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It's also worth noting that the start screen is going to far more useful when it's actually filled with real immersive apps that you've downloaded yourself - complete with all you own personal data and animating around - not just a bunch of random coloured and pictorial icons that you see on the developer builds now, that don't do much at all. This really isn't something for users to be basing too much opinion on yet, when it's not being used as it should :p <img>

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FaiKee

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It's also worth noting that the start screen is going to far more useful when it's actually filled with real immersive apps that you've downloaded yourself - complete with all you own personal data and animating around - not just a bunhc of random coloured and pictorial icons that you see on the developer builds now.

<img>

Agree, MS (Sinofsky) has clearly said that this release is for developers to make their own apps.

It's a M3, not even pre-beta, if there were bugs, apps that can't function, ......, it's normal, just live with it atm.

Rising Star

kInG aLeXo

Posted
Posted

And you actually think the learning curve there will be any easier?

Consider GNOME, or UNITY, or even Wayland - all have a higher learning curve than even Metro does from a user point of view.

All the keyboard tricks from as far back as Windows 9x/NT still work - even within Metro. If you're even a halfway-competent keyboard jockey, Metro/Immersive can be dealt with quite easily - even without touch support.

Something I said (elsewhere) is coming true - far too many of us may SAY we want change; yet, when confronted with it, we become very Pharonic in our attitudes and insist on staying put.

And it doesn't seem to matter whether it's applications, games, operating systems (including FOSS), and even politicians.

Far too many of us don't want new - what we REALLY want is *improved old*, and with as little real change as we can get away with.

That does not imply that I have to accept any changes anyone makes just because its "new".Otherwise there would be no failed products at all, people would always have to accept the new products and changes in old ones no matter how ugly\not usable\not friendly they look to them, just because they are new ?

I won't just be screaming metro owns, screw old stuff, just because MS wants me to believe its cool.From what it looks, its very unpleasing to me, and my opinion is what dictates what I would use, not MS opinion.

Besides, migrating to new GUI isn't that hard, ask all people who got their Macs, or the people who used Linux as their first OS.I already tried various versions of Linux before on VMs\booting from live USBs\CDs and they were all pretty usable for me, it may take few days till getting fully comfortable but thats okay, besides most of the time is spent in the browser and\or 2-3 other apps I use, which are identical between Windows\Mac\Linux.

Grand Master

Eric Veteran

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  • Veteran
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It's also worth noting that the start screen is going to far more useful when it's actually filled with real immersive apps that you've downloaded yourself - complete with all you own personal data and animating around - not just a bunch of random coloured and pictorial icons that you see on the developer builds now, that don't do much at all. This really isn't something for users to be basing too much opinion on yet, when it's not being used as it should :p <img>

I've already got the music player I was working on loaded up in the new Visual Studio to fiddle with... :)

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
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There is a considerable problem in the current build with little to no consistency in between the two desktops. It randomly jumps between one and the other at the most inopportune times, and it's an incredible pain in the ass and is massively confusing. I know I'm not the only one because this very same argument has been stated in reviews as well. As it currently stands in the preview build, I do believe the learning curve is higher than with GNOME or UNITY. Wayland by the way isn't a Desktop Environment. It's a display server that lets you run DE's like GNOME or UNITY on it.

That is because Metro isn't desktop-centric (as has been the case with every GUI for the desktop to date). Metro/Immersive treats the desktop as just another application (like Outlook or Word or IE or Firefox). If you're used to a desktop-centric UI (and, as I've stated, practically every desktop UI is that way - it's far from unique to Windows) the learning curve will be massive, for the most part.

That's why pretty much every UI for the desktop is as close to identical as can be gotten away with - and also why every attempt to move away from that (and not just on desktops) is met with FUD, ridicule, and outright scorn.

I was referring to a lot of the sample code that has been shown on Wayland - very Unity/GNOME Shell-ish. And neither GNOME Shell or Unity have gotten much in the way of respect, either (as neither is desktop-centric) - same applies to Front Row and Launch Pad (OS X).

If you're used to a smartphone or iOS device (such as iPad), Immersive will likely be your cup of tea. Immersive is not what I'm used to - however, there's lots of reward (both in terms of development and as a user) in my learning how to navigate around Immersive, even with a traditional keyboard and mouse.

Device UIs and desktop UIs have become stovepipes, with little to no real common code between them. It's a pain in the butt for developers, and it's becoming just as painful for users, as you wind up carrying both a traditional desktop/portable *and* one or more devices, due to lack of commonality. (It's also why XP Tablet PC Edition failed - too little commonality with XP on the desktop.) Stovepipes are as inefficient that way as they are in anything else - how do you mesh the different types of data structures?

It's not like we haven't been given plenty of warning that the desktop UI as we have known it is in trouble - device sales alone have been plenty of evidence of that. (It's why I likened resisting the change to being in front of an oncoming train.)

Look at it as an opportunity - a learning opportunity.

Collaborator

pupdawg21

Posted
Posted

I don't know if anyone else has said this but for those complaining about missing things on the Immersive view start menu that would be on a regular start menu .... to search you can start typing from any point and it will search. You don't need to press the windows key or anything like that .... just start typing.

Rising Star

OuchOfDeath

Posted
Posted

I don't know if anyone else has said this but for those complaining about missing things on the Immersive view start menu that would be on a regular start menu .... to search you can start typing from any point and it will search. You don't need to press the windows key or anything like that .... just start typing.

So... with a GUI that makes everything easy to see and access they want you to type for everything else? That's not intuitive at all. That's the most absurd design decision ever.

@PGHammer

I have nothing against Metro. I like the UI in fact, as a tablet UI. On a PC I want something functional though, and more importantly I want it to be consistent and cohesive. Currently Metro and the Classic desktop jump around so arbitrarily at all times it's a giant f*cking mess. For example I wanted to get to the Control Panel when I was in the Classic desktop, but I couldn't. There was no entry for it anywhere aside from typing it in explorer's address bar or searching for it, but first off searching for things is not intuitive, and it didn't even come to my mind at the time. I had to jump into Metro, hit the Control Panel applet, then scroll down and hit the "Advanced Options" to finally have it jump back into the Classic desktop with the Control Panel open. What the f*ck is that?

Veteran

~Johnny

Posted
Posted

A little, obvious tip I guess - but the settings button is context sensitive, and that's where all the app settings are hidden (took me a while to figure out I could change the weather to Celsius using it :p)

The search is pretty awesome too - and once apps start coming down the pipe and have implemented all these search contracts and pickers it's going to go a very amazing, interconnected world of apps. Being able to quickly share and pull content from anywhere, in anything is a great experience. At any time you press search at the bottom left - you can use the search feature of any ap you have installed, right from your sidebar without leaving what you're doing. It's a great system, and a great UI. I wanted to change my wallpaper, in two clicks I'd gone and taken a picture from Facebook, right from in the OS. What's not to like? It's bringing all YOUR content back to you. Everything that's been separated into many clouds and data locations all just come back to you, with barely any effort on your part. As an operating system, it really does make the PC more personal than anything else out there.

And important part of this Metro desktop is that, it's really just a place for apps to live and shine - and most of what makes the Metro interface what it is will be the apps - they're what populates it, they're what animates in and lights it up, they're what takes advantage of all the great new API's, notifications etc. And they don't exist yet - so you're missing out on a massive part of the experience at the moment. We've got a blank slate that's filled with some placeholders, ready for us dev to plug things into,. It's great being able to switch in an out of apps quickly and smoothly, and not having to worry about them bogging down the system. It's a great sign on things to come to see the kind of performance they've gotten, even on underpowered first generation netbooks, which feel like brand new, competitive devices running Windows 8.

Takes a bit of time to adjust - but you just have to think about it differently - it's a far more connected experience than a desktop - it's not meant to be a new coat of paint an old way of doing things. It's a new paradigm. Don't bother trying to rate it as it is, just try and explore everything you can, pin loads of stuff and make it personal.

Also, another tip for those multitasking with a mouse with the immersive UI: Using the scroll wheel will cycle through apps that you can snap onto the edges or drag back to full screen.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

That does not imply that I have to accept any changes anyone makes just because its "new".Otherwise there would be no failed products at all, people would always have to accept the new products and changes in old ones no matter how ugly\not usable\not friendly they look to them, just because they are new ?

I won't just be screaming metro owns, screw old stuff, just because MS wants me to believe its cool.From what it looks, its very unpleasing to me, and my opinion is what dictates what I would use, not MS opinion.

Besides, migrating to new GUI isn't that hard, ask all people who got their Macs, or the people who used Linux as their first OS.I already tried various versions of Linux before on VMs\booting from live USBs\CDs and they were all pretty usable for me, it may take few days till getting fully comfortable but thats okay, besides most of the time is spent in the browser and\or 2-3 other apps I use, which are identical between Windows\Mac\Linux.

If you are willing to migrate to a new GUI, why not give Immersive/Metro an honest shake, then?

Simple - all the other desktop GUIs (even OS X) are by and large just as desktop-centric as Windows itself has been to date. Even attempts to change that with OS X (Front Row and Launchpad) have been ridiculed, dismissed, and treated with excessive scorn. (I'm not talking out of my hat - the Developer Preview replaced OS X on this drive; specifically both Snow Leopard and Lion.) Going from OS X to iOS is no walk in the park, either - ask any person that has both a Mac and an iPad. iOS gets away with it because it doesn't *have* a desktop per se. Front Row and Launch Pad treat the OS X desktop as just another application, taking away from that desktop-centricity - hence the brickbats both have suffered.

Going from one desktop-centric UI to another is a picnic by comparison to migrating from a desktop-centric UI to one that isn't. Even NextOS, which didn't start out desktop-centric, changed to become desktop-centric just to survive (and eventually give birth to OS X).

Metro/Immersive is very much a different paradigm - however, I knew that from the beginning. It's all the harder for me because I'm as used to a desktop-centric UI as anyone else that's been running any desktop GUI is, and I'm using traditional desktop hardware to run the Developer Preview on. However, I'm still willing to give Immersive an honest and fair hearing, and the only way I know to do that is by using it, despite the handicaps (largely due to inexperience) I face in using it. (I don't own any sort of device - not even a smartphone. While I do own a cellphone, it's an old Samsung *candybar* phone.)

Rising Star

kInG aLeXo

Posted
Posted

If you are willing to migrate to a new GUI, why not give Immersive/Metro an honest shake, then?

Simple - all the other desktop GUIs (even OS X) are by and large just as desktop-centric as Windows itself has been to date. Even attempts to change that with OS X (Front Row and Launchpad) have been ridiculed, dismissed, and treated with excessive scorn. (I'm not talking out of my hat - the Developer Preview replaced OS X on this drive; specifically both Snow Leopard and Lion.) Going from OS X to iOS is no walk in the park, either - ask any person that has both a Mac and an iPad. iOS gets away with it because it doesn't *have* a desktop per se. Front Row and Launch Pad treat the OS X desktop as just another application, taking away from that desktop-centricity - hence the brickbats both have suffered.

Going from one desktop-centric UI to another is a picnic by comparison to migrating from a desktop-centric UI to one that isn't. Even NextOS, which didn't start out desktop-centric, changed to become desktop-centric just to survive (and eventually give birth to OS X).

Metro/Immersive is very much a different paradigm - however, I knew that from the beginning. It's all the harder for me because I'm as used to a desktop-centric UI as anyone else that's been running any desktop GUI is, and I'm using traditional desktop hardware to run the Developer Preview on. However, I'm still willing to give Immersive an honest and fair hearing, and the only way I know to do that is by using it, despite the handicaps (largely due to inexperience) I face in using it. (I don't own any sort of device - not even a smartphone. While I do own a cellphone, it's an old Samsung *candybar* phone.)

I am not against the concept, I would love to try it out, but what I find disturbing the most is the aesthetic part, the tiles look very ugly to me, specially the monochrome square-shaped ones, they just feel so wrong and not pleasing to me.Besides, it doesn't feel its a UI suitable or can be adapted for someone busy who wants to have tons of documents on his desktop, and dozen or more programs running on his 2-row taskbar (which is what most people use or would be using the desktop for, with basic web surfing done on their tablets\phones most of the time).

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

So... with a GUI that makes everything easy to see and access they want you to type for everything else? That's not intuitive at all. That's the most absurd design decision ever.

@PGHammer

I have nothing against Metro. I like the UI in fact, as a tablet UI. On a PC I want something functional though, and more importantly I want it to be consistent and cohesive. Currently Metro and the Classic desktop jump around so arbitrarily at all times it's a giant f*cking mess. For example I wanted to get to the Control Panel when I was in the Classic desktop, but I couldn't. There was no entry for it anywhere aside from typing it in explorer's address bar or searching for it, but first off searching for things is not intuitive, and it didn't even come to my mind at the time. I had to jump into Metro, hit the Control Panel applet, then scroll down and hit the "Advanced Options" to finally have it jump back into the Classic desktop with the Control Panel open. What the f*ck is that?

Consistency and cohesiveness has meant largely a sameness, as there is shockingly little variance between desktop UIs, even among different operating systems. Worse, any attempt to break out of that on the desktop-UI front (GNOME Shell, Launch Pad, Front Row, etc.) has gotten slammed rather hard. What change that has been accepted has, as you so nicely put it, come in devices - especially iOS devices, such as the iDevices. Apple, to its credit, has actually tried to bring that paradigm back to OS X (first with Front Row in Snow Leopard, then with Launch Pad in Lion), and just looking in Neowin's Apple forums shows how well that has gone. (It's no different in forums related to OS X elsewhere.)

That's my complaint with *all* desktop UIs - except for dress-up niche applets (including Object Desktop, to be honest), the differences between them are surprisingly few. Consigning Metro to tablets and slates leads to the same likelihood as what happened with XP Tablet PC Edition - other than niches, it failed badly. Also, there is the real dilemma that developers face writing apps for a *tablet UI* on a non-tablet - how can you check the functionality without buying a test device (such as a tablet or slate) to test the prospective app on?

Metro/Immersive (in the Developer Preview) tackles both issues head-on. First, it's not desktop-centric at all. (That, in and of itself, is quite a turn from where all desktop GUIs have been literally from the beginning - the closest thing to Metro/Immersive on desktops was the niche NextStep OS in the early days.) Second, it makes a maximum effort to encourage code reuse among all non-desktop-centric Windows platforms - without requiring the additional expense of purchasing test devices for code-checking purposes. It still comes down to doing more with less - the increased efficiency of the Developer Preview, even when compared to 7+SP1, drives that point home hard.

If you want the desktop-centric experience that you're used to, then the Developer Preview as it stands isn't for you as a user.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

I am not against the concept, I would love to try it out, but what I find disturbing the most is the aesthetic part, the tiles look very ugly to me, specially the monochrome square-shaped ones, they just feel so wrong and not pleasing to me.Besides, it doesn't feel its a UI suitable or can be adapted for someone busy who wants to have tons of documents on his desktop, and dozen or more programs running on his 2-row taskbar (which is what most people use or would be using the desktop for, with basic web surfing done on their tablets\phones most of the time).

That's why I said it's more style vs. substance. There's very little style to the Developer Preview (in fact, the only Developer Preview of any version of Windows to have won any style points was Longhorn, and we know what happened there). However, unlike Longhorn (in fact, unlike any other desktop GUI to date), there's a whole lot of substance to this Developer Preview - in addition to a major learning curve for any desktop user.

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