os x OS X Mountain Lion Discussion

[Vice]

They will never abandon SIU, NB, NR. It's half the feature of their EFI setup. I completely disagree with you and you're only looking at it from a "consumer" view. They use too many tools for their own deployments to abandon these methods.

They've already moved to doing OS updates through the Application Store. They are no longer offering the OS on Disc or USB Stick. They are already doing Delta OS updates on the iPhone. All this stuff to me says they are working on making OS updates smaller and more streamlined.

I do think in the future an OS update will only contain the changes from your current OS to the one you're getting through software update. It won't contain an entire base system with an entire working OS, just the changes from what you have to what they have changed.

[Unrealistic]

They've already moved to doing OS updates through the Application Store. They are no longer offering the OS on Disc or USB Stick. They are already doing Delta OS updates on the iPhone. All this stuff to me says they are working on making OS updates smaller and more streamlined.

I do think in the future an OS update will only contain the changes from your current OS to the one you're getting through software update. It won't contain an entire base system with an entire working OS, just the changes from what you have to what they have changed.

Apple has and will continue to offer Delta/Combo updates to bring all OS X products to the same OS build, regardless of model type. I understand what you are saying, but as an Apple admin, I completely disagree with you.

When Apple fixes this ( http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1159 ), then your idea will be relevant. Until then, it's a pipe dream.

[Vice]

Apple has and will continue to offer Delta/Combo updates to bring all OS X products to the same OS build, regardless of model type. I understand what you are saying, but as an Apple admin, I completely disagree with you.

When Apple fixes this ( http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1159 ), then your idea will be relevant. Until then, it's a pipe dream.

i don't see how that is a problem because again Apple knows the machines they've shipped and what they do and do not have and they are the ones delivering service packs and major OS releases through the App Store. I really do believe in the future that OS X Releases (major OS releases) will be delivered with only the changed files and not the complete operating system. They will probably do different OS Release Files for different Macs just like they have always done with the minor service packs.

And I'd also expect for system administrators they will distribute combo packs which are like the combo updates but for major OS releases which support all Macs by containing all their required changed files but again no base system only the changed files from the last OS release.

And I think the recovery partition will continue to offer only the base system and then it will connect to Apples servers (like it always has) and will download the relevant OS Updates and apply them to your OS like it does currently with .1 service packs.

[Unrealistic]

i don't see how that is a problem because again Apple knows the machines they've shipped and what they do and do not have and they are the ones delivering service packs and major OS releases through the App Store. I really do believe in the future that OS X Releases (major OS releases) will be delivered with only the changed files and not the complete operating system. They will probably do different updates for different Macs that have come with different build numbers that enable features other Mac's don't have just like they have always done with the minor service packs.

We shall agree to disagree then. You can't have Apple Store technicians doing Internet Recovery for every model type they have because you want to move to some type of Delta update pack. Apple restores their machines constantly, especially when new OS/updates arrive. If they don't have a method for easy system restores, that are connected via a server, they will just screw themselves.

With iOS, you have a small set of hardware types that are managed. While iOS does offer "delta" updates, they still have "full" builds for when you have to restore. Computers will fail and simply relying an delta/update options will screw you up. If Apple made it where I couldn't do a full install for a server and that I would have to upgrade every time, I would move back to Windows servers.

I could argue heavily over this, and like I said, I disagree 100% with your opinion, but you are definitely entitled to it.

[SuperKid]

I did a clean install to Lion and then upgraded to Mountain Lion because I just wanted to start fresh on my SSD drive because of having limited space and already had a load of apps on it to clear. Seems to be no issues at all for me having done an upgrade, all is good, OS appears much quicker to startup, nothing slower than before.

Seriously an upgrade surely is just like upgrading an app like Google Chrome? Would you reinstall your OS just to upgrade an App each time a new version came out? It replaces System files, deletes old files and cleans up after itself Finder, login screen etc are all just essentially core apps, I don't really see the fuss and don't see how it can slow down the OS really.

[.Neo]

That is where I foresee Apple taking us and at that point clean installs will not be possible you'll only be able to reset the machine back to the base OS from a few years ago and then after the install is completed a large update download will begin with all the changes since then to current day.

Turning OS X Releases more in to service packs is I think the avenue they will take.

If you have a recovery partition you would still have a slipstreamed disc image of the latest OS version somewhere allowing you to do a clean install. Even today the App Store OS X Installer is being updated to the latest 10.x.x version.

Something I noticed for the very first time after installing Microsoft Office 2011; Apple made massive improvements to Launchpad. I don't get those tons of useless support apps anymore! Just the main Office apps. Yay!

[Vice]

We shall agree to disagree then. You can't have Apple Store technicians doing Internet Recovery for every model type they have because you want to move to some type of Delta update pack. Apple restores their machines constantly, especially when new OS/updates arrive. If they don't have a method for easy system restores, that are connected via a server, they will just screw themselves.

With iOS, you have a small set of hardware types that are managed. While iOS does offer "delta" updates, they still have "full" builds for when you have to restore. Computers will fail and simply relying an delta/update options will screw you up.

I could argue heavily over this, and like I said, I disagree 100% with your opinion, but you are definitely entitled to it.

When you get an OS like Lion for example. On release day there are no service packs yet. So over 12 months you get each update as it releases. Each .1 release individually. But if you go to reinstall you don't do that do you? You don't download 10.7.1 then 10.7.2 then 10.7.3 - Instead you instantly get the last major update because Apple has rolled all the changes they've ever done in to one convenient update which brings your OS up to the latest version.

That is how they would do it with OS X Major Releases.

So if you're in an Apple Store and a genius needs to reinstall your machine they would access the recovery partition do the base install then their on-site server (which btw they already have for delivering Lion recovery installs and iOS installs, it was in the news several months ago) and then there server would deliver on top of that base install an update file which contains all the changes since that OS was released to present.

I really don't think it is such a stretch to suggest Apple will move to doing OS Releases like .1 service packs they already have a working and setup infrastructure for offering it, the prices of the OS's keep going down to almost nothing and they've moved everything including service pack updates in to the App Store.

And yes we can disagree and you're entitled to your opinion, I don't know why you're arguing with me about it to be honest, it's like we can't even state our opinions on Neowin for some reason. All I'm doing is thinking about what will happen in the future and where I foresee Apple going.

[Unrealistic]

When you get an OS like Lion for example. On release day there are no service packs yet. So over 12 months you get each update as it releases. Each .1 release individually. But if you go to reinstall you don't do that do you? You don't download 10.7.1 then 10.7.2 then 10.7.3 - Instead you instantly get the last major update because Apple has rolled all the changes they've ever done in to one convenient update which brings your OS up to the latest version.

That is how they would do it with OS X Major Releases.

So if you're in an Apple Store and a genius needs to reinstall your machine they would access the recovery partition do the base install then their on-site server (which btw they already have for delivering Lion recovery installs and iOS installs, it was in the news several months ago) and then there server would deliver on top of that base install an update file which contains all the changes since that OS was released to present.

I really don't think it is such a stretch to suggest Apple will move to doing OS Releases like .1 service packs they already have a working and setup infrastructure for offering it, the prices of the OS's keep going down to almost nothing and they've moved everything including service pack updates in to the App Store.

And yes we can disagree and you're entitled to your opinion, I don't know why you're arguing with me about it to be honest, it's like we can't even state our opinions on Neowin for some reason. All I'm doing is thinking about what will happen in the future and where I foresee Apple going.

And yet you continue to argue back, lol.

Okay I'll bite one last time. Right now they are clean imaging computers when they bring them in with all of the updates. So what you're describing is in the future they will have one OS and they will install that OS, then post-flight/post-install the necessary updates afterwards?

Why would they move backwards? Why not continue to have the what they have in place, which is the full thing to begin with? You have two conflicting ideas there.

[Vice]

And yet you continue to argue back, lol.

Okay I'll bite one last time. Right now they are clean imaging computers when they bring them in with all of the updates. So what you're describing is in the future they will have one OS and they will install that OS, then post-flight/post-install the necessary updates afterwards?

Why would they move backwards? Why not continue to have the what they have in place, which is the full thing to begin with? You have two conflicting ideas there.

You don't need to "bite" at anything. I'm not antagonizing you. If you don't want to argue with me then don't simple as that.

[+Steve B Subscriber²]

I like the new features but, man, there are some bugs. Safari is slow as ****. It starts loading a page (using progress bar), a quarter of the way through it pauses, then finishes. The earlier version of Safari was faster. I originally did an upgrade from Lion to Mountain Lion but noticing how some things were just not behaving, I deleted the partition and reinstalled Mountain Lion. I'm just not liking how Safari seems to messed up in terms of speed. I've had to reboot my iMac two or three times now since installing Mountain Lion. Not a good sign.

[Scorbing]

I like the new features but, man, there are some bugs. Safari is slow as ****. It starts loading a page (using progress bar), a quarter of the way through it pauses, then finishes. The earlier version of Safari was faster. I originally did an upgrade from Lion to Mountain Lion but noticing how some things were just not behaving, I deleted the partition and reinstalled Mountain Lion. I'm just not liking how Safari seems to messed up in terms of speed. I've had to reboot my iMac two or three times now since installing Mountain Lion. Not a good sign.

There is a solution for that. It's called: Google Chrome :D

If you have a recovery partition you would still have a slipstreamed disc image of the latest OS version somewhere allowing you to do a clean install. Even today the App Store OS X Installer is being updated to the latest 10.x.x version.

Something I noticed for the very first time after installing Microsoft Office 2011; Apple made massive improvements to Launchpad. I don't get those tons of useless support apps anymore! Just the main Office apps. Yay!

I find the icons and the UI much, more sharper and clear than before. It looks very, very nice. I bought my iMac in 2010 and I can't complaint. It has served me well. As for the new OS, it looks cool. I disabled all the animations because I simply hate them.

I was going to ask you, how do you like the Office suite you have? I had it but I found it to be sluggish compared to iWorks, especially Word. It was so slow. How is yours working?

[+Steve B Subscriber²]

There is a solution for that. It's called: Google Chrome :D

I do have Chrome and Firefox downloaded but, I also use iCloud. I have an iPhone and iPad and use Safari (never had an issue until now) for the synchronization across my devices. It's really nice except now Safari is just kinda weird. Although, I can't say I'm too surprised. It is a new OS release and new Safari release. I'm sure there are probably bugs. Lol

Although, on a wim, I disabled Kaspersky. I had Kaspersky Anti-Virus for Mac and had NO problems. However, after a clean install, I went to their site to download the latest version and they got rid of that and replaced it with Kaspersky Security for Mac or something like that. I disabled that and bam. My internet is working again. WTF. LOL

[Scorbing]

I do have Chrome and Firefox downloaded but, I also use iCloud. I have an iPhone and iPad and use Safari (never had an issue until now) for the synchronization across my devices. It's really nice except now Safari is just kinda weird. Although, I can't say I'm too surprised. It is a new OS release and new Safari release. I'm sure there are probably bugs. Lol

Although, on a wim, I disabled Kaspersky. I had Kaspersky Anti-Virus for Mac and had NO problems. However, after a clean install, I went to their site to download the latest version and they got rid of that and replaced it with Kaspersky Security for Mac or something like that. I disabled that and bam. My internet is working again. WTF. LOL

Contrary to what many people here will tell you, there is no need for an anti-virus on a Mac. As long as you stay away from Porn Sites, Poker Sites, Game Sites with questionable content and use common sense, you will never get infected. I have had my iMac for 3 years now and I have never, ever gotten a virus of any kind. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.

[Scorbing]

The one thing that I really like is the dictation thing. It is awesome and very, very accurate.

[PGHammer]

Traversing the directory structure is one thing, but being able to open all those files at will is another.

If this has been like this since the beginning of computing, it?s time to change.

Every version of OS X has read-only SMB support for the express purpose of reading NTFS volumes (an inheritance via BSD, which shares the support, which is also built into most recent Linux kernels) - however, without third-party software, you don't have *write* access to those volumes - either local or networked. The access to previous versions of OS X is the same - read-only, not read/write. That is, to be honest, different from Windows, which can't even *read* Apple_HFS volumes without third-party software. Windows 8 has read-only *local* access to volumes of previous versions of WIndows - however, as is the case with OS X and its previous versions, it's strictly read-only *unless* you enter the proper password.

[n_K]

'That is, to be honest, different from Windows, which can't even *read* Apple_HFS volumes without third-party software.'

Because HFS is more strictly licensed only to Apple (who own it) and you can only get the windows reader for it (read only) by installing bootcamp.

'Windows 8 has read-only *local* access to volumes of previous versions of WIndows'

Not used W8 in a while, but I highly doubt it's read only. NTFS will be read/write, FAT will be read/write.

'it's strictly read-only *unless* you enter the proper password.'

Now you're talking about permisssions. No, files and folders are locked and only administrators can unlock them, but they can all be unlocked.

Can anyone here get iMessages working without the popup error?

[PGHammer]

I do have Chrome and Firefox downloaded but, I also use iCloud. I have an iPhone and iPad and use Safari (never had an issue until now) for the synchronization across my devices. It's really nice except now Safari is just kinda weird. Although, I can't say I'm too surprised. It is a new OS release and new Safari release. I'm sure there are probably bugs. Lol

Although, on a wim, I disabled Kaspersky. I had Kaspersky Anti-Virus for Mac and had NO problems. However, after a clean install, I went to their site to download the latest version and they got rid of that and replaced it with Kaspersky Security for Mac or something like that. I disabled that and bam. My internet is working again. WTF. LOL

It's called *compatibility issues*, and are typical with any update to an operating system from anybody. (If you think that this hasn't happened to Apple before, then obviously you don't follow forums even partially dedicated to OS X - even before the shift to Intel CPUs.)

What was the biggest surprise to *me* is the appearance of rather high-end Apple hardware on the *not compatible with Mountain Lion* HCL - specifically the 1.x versions of the single-Xeon or dual-Xeon Mac Pro. (Further digging uncovers that it's due to the GPUs that came in these Mac Pros is no supported by Mountain Lion - which is, in fact, the only thing that made sense.)

[PGHammer]

'That is, to be honest, different from Windows, which can't even *read* Apple_HFS volumes without third-party software.'

Because HFS is more strictly licensed only to Apple (who own it) and you can only get the windows reader for it (read only) by installing bootcamp.

'Windows 8 has read-only *local* access to volumes of previous versions of WIndows'

Not used W8 in a while, but I highly doubt it's read only. NTFS will be read/write, FAT will be read/write.

'it's strictly read-only *unless* you enter the proper password.'

Now you're talking about permisssions. No, files and folders are locked and only administrators can unlock them, but they can all be unlocked.

Can anyone here get iMessages working without the popup error?

It's read-only without the proper password, which has been the case for all NT versions of Windows.

And you are correct - it *is* a permissions issue; the same is, in fact, true with any OS readable from any other OS

The same, in fact, applies to OS X volumes.

The growing interest in Btrfs is due pretty much to the lack of a userbase for this GPL-licensable filesystem - even most Linux professionals stick with tried-and-true ext4 for local volumes.

However, I'm not saying that either the OS X or Windows approaches are necessarily *bad* or even *evil* from a security standpoint; I'm merely saying that the approaches are different (in minor ways).

[PGHammer]

I like the new features but, man, there are some bugs. Safari is slow as ****. It starts loading a page (using progress bar), a quarter of the way through it pauses, then finishes. The earlier version of Safari was faster. I originally did an upgrade from Lion to Mountain Lion but noticing how some things were just not behaving, I deleted the partition and reinstalled Mountain Lion. I'm just not liking how Safari seems to messed up in terms of speed. I've had to reboot my iMac two or three times now since installing Mountain Lion. Not a good sign.

I haven't used Safari as my default browser on OS X - ever. Also, did you upgrade to Mountain Lion, or do a clean install?

One area I have found that *all* operating systems are alike is tha a lot of *crud* builds up over time - just because your OS isn't Windows, don't even DARE think you aren't immune! (If Linux distributions and the BSDs aren't immune, why would OS X be immune?)

Therefore, in *every* case, a clean install beats an upgrade install.

[n_K]

Eh? No password is required, right click the folder, go to properties and claim ownership over all objects in the folder and the folder itself (as an adminstrator), no password needed...

The user's password is stored hashed in a registry hive so you wouldn't even be able to ask for a password anyway.

[+Steve B Subscriber²]

I haven't used Safari as my default browser on OS X - ever. Also, did you upgrade to Mountain Lion, or do a clean install?

One area I have found that *all* operating systems are alike is tha a lot of *crud* builds up over time - just because your OS isn't Windows, don't even DARE think you aren't immune! (If Linux distributions and the BSDs aren't immune, why would OS X be immune?)

Therefore, in *every* case, a clean install beats an upgrade install.

At first I did an upgrade. However, the system just seemed "off" and not as fast as before. Then I decided it was best to do a clean install and did just that.

Contrary to what many people here will tell you, there is no need for an anti-virus on a Mac. As long as you stay away from Porn Sites, Poker Sites, Game Sites with questionable content and use common sense, you will never get infected. I have had my iMac for 3 years now and I have never, ever gotten a virus of any kind. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nada.

I'm not to terribly concerned about my system becoming infected. I do use common sense and I'm careful with where I go. I mainly use it to keep from passing on Windows infections to the Windows computers I interact with constantly, file transfers, etc. I know its not really needed but, I rather try and be helpful if I can in any way. Af far as Kaspersky is concerned it looks like their latest release for Mac is still a bit buggy.

[Elliott]

I like the new features but, man, there are some bugs. Safari is slow as ****. It starts loading a page (using progress bar), a quarter of the way through it pauses, then finishes. The earlier version of Safari was faster. I originally did an upgrade from Lion to Mountain Lion but noticing how some things were just not behaving, I deleted the partition and reinstalled Mountain Lion. I'm just not liking how Safari seems to messed up in terms of speed. I've had to reboot my iMac two or three times now since installing Mountain Lion. Not a good sign.

Odd. Safari 6 is loads faster for me.

[+Steve B Subscriber²]

Odd. Safari 6 is loads faster for me.

You may have caught my earlier posting but, it looks like the culprit was Kaspersky. They released a new version about a week ago and it doesn't seem to play well with Mountain Lion even though they said it would. Lol. I've seen in their forums that people have complained as well.

Although, I can't seem to install the Extensions I use such as Ad Block. I keep getting an error.

[mattmatik]

Anyone having issues with Messages? I enable the menu in status bar but it keeps saying I'm offline. I am able to send messages but not change my status. This was an issue in the beta as well, can't believe its not fixed.

Also, do I have to keep Messages app open to receive them? :/

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Every version of OS X has read-only SMB support for the express purpose of reading NTFS volumes (an inheritance via BSD, which shares the support, which is also built into most recent Linux kernels) - however, without third-party software, you don't have *write* access to those volumes - either local or networked. The access to previous versions of OS X is the same - read-only, not read/write. That is, to be honest, different from Windows, which can't even *read* Apple_HFS volumes without third-party software. Windows 8 has read-only *local* access to volumes of previous versions of WIndows - however, as is the case with OS X and its previous versions, it's strictly read-only *unless* you enter the proper password.

OS X didn't inherit SMB support from BSD, it got it by using Samba originally (And now they wrote their own system), even then SMB is purely for network shares, and doesn't care about the underlying file system (Which is why read/write is down to permissions, not the file system used)