Windows 8, enough after about 2 hours

[Salutary7]

I can't wait to get a Windows 8 Tablet though.

Honestly the more I see of Win8 tabs lately, the more I'm impressed. Let's hope they can get the pricing right, since powerful PCs are continually more affordable and PC sales are still expected to grow over the next few years.

[br0adband]

I'll tell you why you don't understand. He said "he" not "you."

Some people, myself included, hit the start menu (solo Windows key, all day long). It brings up search, recent and pinned apps with jumplists. Everytime you do that now, full screen start page in your face. It's almost comical in fact. Different users will have different experiences, unfortunately for a lot of people they will be bad and very very annoying.

You're under the assumption that I myself don't use the Windows key - and I have since pre-Win 95 launch time when keyboards first appeared with that odd "flag" thing that some people just couldn't comprehend. The concept of "Click the Start button" to me is instantly interpreted as "Hit the Win key" in any and all situations.

In fact, when I hit that key in Windows 8 if I even take note of the Start screen visually it's a miracle, honestly. I just don't choose to "focus" entirely on what's in front of me like you're implying that people - including yourself, most likely - seem to be reacting. I can only imagine being a fly on the wall when you hit that key and can almost hear the "Oh great, I have to see that damned Start screen again, oh well, let's get this over with <press key>... *sigh*" when you do it.

Is it really that severe for you and others?

Really?

Taking your "you" and "he" thing to the next step, Microsoft doesn't write operating systems for "you" or for "him" or for "me."

They write them for "us" which means the minority offering up their complaints and frustration typically don't cause them to completely redo something just because of the complaints and frustration. There's usually going to be a lot more going on when complaints and frustrations are considered for change - if there's not enough behind them to work with or it's just outright whining and moaning with no real basis (and saying "I don't like it this way, it was better in Windows 7" etc isn't a real basis).

As for me, I'm adapted to Windows 8, Start screen to shutdown and everything in between. It's as natural for me to operate in Windows 8 right now as it's ever going to get, and in some respects it's even faster than me in Windows 7 because of the new shortcuts that Windows 8 provides (that Windows 7 could really have done well with). I suspect I'm not alone in this.

But I will adapt to the RC and the RTM when they're available in exactly the same way because I am adaptable.

Some folks are just stuck...

[Dot Matrix]

Change should never be resisted. In the case that it is, one of two things will happen: More change is brought about, or those that resisted will fall to the wayside and become extinct, while those that embraced the change, lived on. One thing is for certain though, once change comes about, there is no going back. Things will never be the same again.

That looks real good Dot Matrix. I typically don't run these types of things, they destabilize my Rock Solid Windows 7 but I d/l'd it and I'm thinking real hard about it. I have a 32G system that I never have to reboot or close apps and I can see the shell faults now, lol. I think I'll take a quick system image and go for it, for a little while at least :)

I use UxStyle Core. It automatically patches the UX files, and is easily uninstallable.

[MorganX]

You're under the assumption that I myself don't use the Windows key - and I have since pre-Win 95 launch time when keyboards first appeared with that odd "flag" thing that some people just couldn't comprehend. The concept of "Click the Start button" to me is instantly interpreted as "Hit the Win key" in any and all situations.

In fact, when I hit that key in Windows 8 if I even take note of the Start screen visually it's a miracle, honestly. I just don't choose to "focus" entirely on what's in front of me like you're implying that people - including yourself, most likely - seem to be reacting. I can only imagine being a fly on the wall when you hit that key and can almost hear the "Oh great, I have to see that damned Start screen again, oh well, let's get this over with <press key>... *sigh*" when you do it.

Is it really that severe for you and others?

Really?

That's what they're telling you and you seem to refuse to accept it. On the desktop, for me, and the Start Page itself on a laptop with touchpad, yeah, it's that bad. Given that I'm 100% happy with Windows 7, why would I go and be annoyed? lol. Maybe by SP1 or some other compelling reason or Windows 8 only app I'll be ready for it. Windows Server 8, a definite hell yes.

>>Some folks are just stuck...<<

That's about the size of it. For MS' sake, it better be a small portion of the market.

PS: I do love the custom lock screen though damn it. Most of the things I like could have easily been put in Windows 7 SP2, damn Microsoft and their plans for tablet space domination. ;>

[MorganX]

Change should never be resisted. In the case that it is, one of two things will happen: More change is brought about, or those that resisted will fall to the wayside and become extinct, while those that embraced the change, lived on. One thing is for certain though, once change comes about, there is no going back. Things will never be the same again.

Change for the worse should be avoided. I did change for the sake of change and style. All 3 times I owned a Mac. And I always went back for Windows because the UI is more efficient and I'm more productive with it. The OS X dock is more effective than Metro on the desktop. And believe me, it's blasphemy for me to say that.

I use UxStyle Core. It automatically patches the UX files, and is easily uninstallable.

I am installing. Just can't resist. Thanks again!

Edit: Installed, looks fantastic. Only thing I miss is the icons on Start menu when hovering over static menu items. You barely see them so no worries. Just a cool factor. Where'd you get the square start menu button?

I have an i7 2600, 32G RAM, and ATI 6670 so nothing is slow, but I actually notice faster menus and windowing with this theme patch installed.

[Tjarboe]

Well, just MY opinion and doesn't mean everyone else has to feel the same, but Windows 8 should be, and I believe it is, aimed only at the Tablet Market. It's going to be GREAT for Tablets, but not so great for Desktops and Laptops. I can really see where it's going to have it's uses on such things as touch screens in a manufacturing setting, or retail setting, but not as much so in the home setting or a lot of small business settings. Most of it is going to depend on what kind of hardware they are going to offer for the OS. But, I'm kind of old school and believe the OS should be written for the hardware, and not the hardware for the OS.

Just my opinion. And yes, It lasted 3 days on my laptop before I went back to Windows 7.

[migo]

Finger swiping with the touch mouse makes the Win 8 Start page totally usable and fixes most full screen apps. It's like night and day, why? Because this is a touch interface. The switching back and forth is still a kludge and having a ton of tiles is just ridiculous (no folders).

I don't think it will be popular on the desktop with this implementation, a touch UI has to be all or nothing. Fortunately, there's so much good stuff other than the UI, MS will get a way with ramming it down people's throat. I think I will absolutely love Metro tablets though.

Additionally, MS needs to lighten the touch mouse by about 8lbs. The Metro UI made my laptop completely unusable until I get to the desktop. lol.

Touch mouse is the way to go though eliminates my biggest issues. Maybe the RTM will allow you to boot to desktop which will eliminate my second biggest issue? I spend more time jacking around in the Start Page before I can get to work. I view live tiles and the Start Page as an App that could all have been gadgets. I need to see a compelling reason to hang out on the start page, after all, I never hung out in my Start Menu before, now I have to almost.

Not as bad as it was, but not as good as it should be.

Using the sides and corners of the screen to bring up previously hidden elements is very useful with a mouse. I've been customizing it like that since XP. Windows 8 is finally catering to power users more than a decade later.

[Dot Matrix]

Using the sides and corners of the screen to bring up previously hidden elements is very useful with a mouse. I've been customizing it like that since XP. Windows 8 is finally catering to power users more than a decade later.

Didn't the Mac use the corners? Microsoft does it and it "sucks"?

[migo]

Didn't the Mac use the corners? Microsoft does it and it "sucks"?

Yeah, that's one of the big reasons I prefer Snow Leopard to Lion. The corners were useful, although I like Windows 8 so far more than Snow Leopard.

[MorganX]

Using the sides and corners of the screen to bring up previously hidden elements is very useful with a mouse. I've been customizing it like that since XP. Windows 8 is finally catering to power users more than a decade later.

I can do it faster with Windows 7 taskbar and don't have to be that precise with the mouse. I can do it cooler with flip 3d. I'm just sayin'. No one is saying 8 can't do these things. Some are asking, why would I upgrade to an implementation that is superior to what I have now. Just for the sake of changing? Umm, no.

Hey, everyone is on the save version of Windows now, and they won't be after 8 is released. Unfortunately, MS is also forcing a shift in app development as well. And there's no real reason to do it other than to further their tablet agenda. Developers haven't even mastered DirectX 11, Multithreading, 64-bit code, or utilizing massive amounts of memory on the desktop. For $300 you can have a 32G of desktop memory now.

Didn't the Mac use the corners? Microsoft does it and it "sucks"?

Hey, it sucked when Apple did it. :woot:

[MorganX]

No matter what side of this you're on. There are major major problems on the desktop. The switching back and forth just feels cheap. Like MS just got lazy or ran out of ideas.

Today I had one of my Datacenter Engineers order a bunch of Samsung PCoIP Monitors. It's time for us to exploer Virtual Desktops now. Windows 8 and where MS is going has already destabilized the desktop and we may have to do a lot of mix n matchin'.

Honestly, we're a Microsoft/Cisco shop. But if we're going to have to deal with this hybrid/UI, an absolute mess on a desktop IMO, I don't see how I can continue to exclude Macs. This is not going to be pretty. Not at all.

One thing we can agree on, Windows 8 is going to change things on the desktop, forever. And maybe not in Microsoft's favor.

[migo]

The taskbar only worked properly in the Windows Vista Beta. Every other version of Windows has had focus stealing with the taskbar. Windows 8 finally gets rid of all forms of focus stealing, which is one of the most significant improvements.

[MorganX]

The taskbar only worked properly in the Windows Vista Beta. Every other version of Windows has had focus stealing with the taskbar. Windows 8 finally gets rid of all forms of focus stealing, which is one of the most significant improvements.

Absolute nonsense. Program and Explorer notifications steal the focus when the Taskbar is not hidden. It is by design. Even if it is an annoyance, it is minute. Say you plug in a USB drive or camera, Explorer, will steal the focus with its prompt of what to do with the device, as it should. This is a desparate attempt, I give you that.

[TEX4S]

Morgan -

"....I have an i7 2600, 32G RAM, and ATI 6670 so nothing is sl....."

:|

[MorganX]

Morgan -

"....I have an i7 2600, 32G RAM, and ATI 6670 so nothing is sl....."

:|

???, no paging file (Force GT 120 SSD anyway, and never have to close anything if I don't want to.)

Dell Optiplex 990 SFF, 4 x 8GB http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148545

[br0adband]

So far in my usage, nothing has stolen focus from the currently active app/window, and to be honest that itself is a bit unnerving in some respects. When I start a file copy with Explorer, I - based on past experience - fully expect(ed) the file copy dialogue box to jump to the front and take focus... and it doesn't, at least the very first time I do a file copy with Windows 8 (just after a fresh install). The dialogue does appear but it remains hidden behind the currently active window and I see on the Taskbar that there's two icons now meaning the second one appeared, so I Alt+Tab or click the button to get to it.

However, once it DOES have focus, from that point on every instance of file copy brings it to the foreground and gives the file copy dialogue focus. There's also other things in Windows 8 that do the same type of behavior, and I first took note of that back in the DP and was worried "Ok, if that's how things are, it's gonna suck from now on because I'm soooooooo used to having a window take the foreground and if I have to Alt+Tab or hit the button on the Taskbar every time a newly launched app or notification doesn't take focus, that's a problem."

So, in the DP it was "first time no focus, every succeeding time focus" and on the CP that's been the case as well so far. Maybe I'm the only person that notice(d) it but, it happens.

Windows 7, it's a non-issue, never has been, but with 8 it caught me off-guard a bit. Some items that require elevation also bring up the UAC prompt not in the foreground the first time, but after that the succeeding times it's there where it should be. Odd but, it's what I've experienced myself.

[Dot Matrix]

No matter what side of this you're on. There are major major problems on the desktop. The switching back and forth just feels cheap. Like MS just got lazy or ran out of ideas.

Today I had one of my Datacenter Engineers order a bunch of Samsung PCoIP Monitors. It's time for us to exploer Virtual Desktops now. Windows 8 and where MS is going has already destabilized the desktop and we may have to do a lot of mix n matchin'.

Honestly, we're a Microsoft/Cisco shop. But if we're going to have to deal with this hybrid/UI, an absolute mess on a desktop IMO, I don't see how I can continue to exclude Macs. This is not going to be pretty. Not at all.

One thing we can agree on, Windows 8 is going to change things on the desktop, forever. And maybe not in Microsoft's favor.

This is no different than having to switch back and forth between DOS and Windows back in the day. Only difference here is that we don't have to log out, shutdown, or wait to switch between the two. While a big enough change in it's own right, I don't see any other way of introducing Metro. It's no secret that desktops are changing. I think if Microsoft can get cracking to fix up Windows 8, then Windows will be all right. Everything still works, and once past the small learning curve, all the old functionality is still there.

The downside to Macs is that they don't change. It's the same paradigm from the 90's. It's not the 90's anymore, and there are new ways of doing things that the Mac hasn't picked up yet. Apple is moving at a snail's pace when the market is moving as fast as a hare.

[MorganX]

So, in the DP it was "first time no focus, every succeeding time focus" and on the CP that's been the case as well so far. Maybe I'm the only person that notice(d) it but, it happens.

Windows 7, it's a non-issue, never has been, but with 8 it caught me off-guard a bit. Some items that require elevation also bring up the UAC prompt not in the foreground the first time, but after that the succeeding times it's there where it should be. Odd but, it's what I've experienced myself.

For the record, Win 7 or 8, I believe dialogs taking focus on completion of a task is the proper action. Now, I wouldn't be against being able to toggle that, but sans toggle, it should give focus and highlight that task or app on the taskbar. It only takes focus the first time but again, its a non-issue to me. If you do find it an annoyance, it simply in no way supports "the taskbar only worked properly in Vista Beta." Let's be sensible here. lol.

[MorganX]

>>This is no different than having to switch back and forth between DOS and Windows back in the day.<<

I don't remember that. No really. I don't remember any version of Windows forcing me to DOS as my primary navigation. When I ran a DOS app, it ran in a Window or full screen. No part of my Windows UI was DOS. If say in, Windows 3.11 (that would have been for Workgroups I believe) I had to go to a DOS prompt to change drives. That, that would have been equivalent. Or if to launch programs I "had to" use command prompt and type Start <program>. I actually thought MS handled running legacy DOS apps pretty elegantly. However, that was a total paradigm shift and peole ran from most DOS apps for day to day productivity. Custom Apps, Dbase, and all the others ran Windowed just fine.

>>The downside to Macs is that they don't change.<<

What needs to change? The UI should be more like Windows Explorer up to version 7, lol. They copied as much as they could but their implementation is inferior. Also, the cost is still higher and the closed hardware platform; Those are the biggest downsides. We won't be rolling them out, but it will be much harder to deny the executive branch if we put Windows 8 in front of them. That is a 100% guarantee based on where Windows 8 is at the moment. I'm not happy about it at all but there's not much I can do.

MS is usually on the ball on these things. I can only think the iPad has put more fear into Redmond that anyone could have imagined. This just isn't like Microsoft ...

>>I think if Microsoft can get cracking to fix up Windows 8<<

They're all-in. This is a done deal. All the time invested and this is what they come up with, they're not making any major modifications. I hope I'm wrong. Something went terribly wrong here. Two bars to replace one taskbar, both sides of the screen, really? That's more efficient? Really?

I don't disklike Metro, at all. Windows Phone is the superior Phone OS. And I do believe Windows 8 Tablets will be a smashing success. This hybrid desktop UI, I can't see how it will work out well in the Enterprise. We'll find out soon enough though.

But personally, now that I have the Windows 8 corners in Windows 7 and a square flush start button, I'm good until 2015 or so. Just in time for Windows 9 which fixes the UI/UX mess. j/k.

This has been a good vigorous educational debate. I'm going to step away from it for a while but I will keep 8 on my laptop. Will be getting a hands on demo of Win 8 tabs from the 800lb Gorillas themselves in a week or two. I'll come back to let you know if it drove me to order an iPad 3.

Everyone should be excited about Windows 8's Windows to Go though. The only thing wrong with Windows 8 is this UI mess. smh, why can't MS ever make it easy?

[MorganX]

One final note, anyone who actually has a Windows Phone knows MS still hasn't figured out how to elegantly manage Metro when there are lots of tiles or long lists. On the phone, they index them with the alphabet. I wouldn't be surprised to see this show up on the Start Page. What a mess.

If they implement folders, this will break the smooth metro flow. This should be fun to watch.

[sathenzar]

I can't really say whether or not I like it. I'm trying to actually use it for a while before I say I hate it. Although I will say the metro isn't the best experience I've had for OS features so far. I'm kind of learning how to use the new metro interface as I go. My biggest problem with it so far is like as others have said, it feels like you are fighting with two operating systems. I'm not saying I hate it, but it does certaintly feel weird to get pulled out of what you are doing to go into another screen just to access yet another screen in your desktop (ex. control panel if you don't right click the start bar you have to click start->right click->all programs->control panel). I'll give it a few more days though and post a more detailed review.

[Salutary7]

One final note, anyone who actually has a Windows Phone knows MS still hasn't figured out how to elegantly manage Metro when there are lots of tiles or long lists. On the phone, they index them with the alphabet. I wouldn't be surprised to see this show up on the Start Page. What a mess.

That was a serious gripe of mine. I'm not sure what typical users do with their phones, but I had to go out and get tons of free software. With no real user-defined grouping, the apps became a mess after a few weeks. Luckily Win8 does provide a way to separate apps on the start page. The all programs page, however, will need some work.

[techguy77]

One final note, anyone who actually has a Windows Phone knows MS still hasn't figured out how to elegantly manage Metro when there are lots of tiles or long lists. On the phone, they index them with the alphabet. I wouldn't be surprised to see this show up on the Start Page. What a mess.

If they implement folders, this will break the smooth metro flow. This should be fun to watch.

When you get a huge list pretty much you get carpet tunnel syndrom from scrolling up and down. lol

[ajnauron]

It's just that it doesn't work as well with the entire contents of an installed program's folder dumping all of those shortcuts into the Metro start screen. Then you end up trying to find desktop apps within a sea of readmes, shortcuts to program developer's websites, and help files.

[Anthonyd]

One final note, anyone who actually has a Windows Phone knows MS still hasn't figured out how to elegantly manage Metro when there are lots of tiles or long lists. On the phone, they index them with the alphabet. I wouldn't be surprised to see this show up on the Start Page. What a mess.

If they implement folders, this will break the smooth metro flow. This should be fun to watch.

Come on, the longlistselector (what you call the alphabet index) is one of the best feature of WP :)

The home screen in Windows 8 is the equivalent of the home page on Windows Phone, there are just pinned apps here.

Then you have the "all apps" list (on the app bar on Windows 8, slide to the right on WP) where you have the index. And guess what? There an equivalent of the longlistselector already on the "all apps" page of the start screen in Windows 8 CP.