windows 8 Windows 8 Consumer Preview: A Call for Common Sense

[xWhiplash]

Yes, that is exactly what we're saying. Sometimes, for a major improvement to be made, a complete overhaul is required. For window management, Windows 8 should not be used in the same way people have been using Windows since Windows 95.

Microsoft was able to get away with it back then, but now since everybody has a computer, I bet you Windows 8 will not be a success at all.

You cannot expect the general population to abandon what they learned since Windows 95 "just because we needed a change". This is where Apple shines with their latest OSes. The new features are completely optional. I can still use the dock like I have been using for 10 years since Cheetah.

[freak180]

haha well what could I say. I figure MS would of thought of this, instead adding it to charms and under settings... cmon..give me a break~

[Stoffel]

AllI care about at the moment! They want to make things simple. Use comon sense and add the shutdown and restart to the user menu. If you can signout and lock the computer from that menu, why not shutdown or restart it as well! Why seperate this ??

If you put it there a lot of people will complain that it's one step extra if you are a desktop user.

What MS is trying to do is make it as universal as possible whether you are on the Desktop or a metro app.

Same reason they took the start button away. so there is a consistent way to get back to the start screen from anywhere

[+Warwagon MVC]

If you put it there a lot of people will complain that it's one step extra if you are a desktop user.

What MS is trying to do is make it as universal as possible whether you are on the Desktop or a metro app.

Same reason they took the start button away. so there is a consistent way to get back to the start screen from anywhere

You mean just how you have to bring up the big metro screen just to get to your name to log off? Why wasn't your profile button in the top of the charms menu?

[giantpotato]

Or maybe try using a server in a controlled environment that physical access to a computer is limited for obvious reasons.

GD short sighted morons.

If you're shutting down a server often enough that a couple extra clicks is a problem you're doing something wrong.

[freak180]

nice come back warwagon lol But they can still keep that option there to shutdown it with charms.

[Ilgauskas]

I didn't say "no one" gets it like Paul Thurrott and I do; I said "many" don't.

I said many people do not "get" the new concept because they don't. Me "getting" the new concept has nothing to do with what I said about me not being able to give it a good use. I said I haven't been able to completely measure my level of productivity when using Windows 8 compared to my level of productivity when using Windows 7; however, I certainly "get" the new Windows 8 concept.

Even if I find that I'm more productive with Windows 7 (which I doubt will happen, but it might), I will still "get" the new Windows 8 concept.

I stand firm with my belief that none of you have had time to be able to accurately measure how productive you are with Windows 8 compared to how productive you are with Windows 7, especially as most of those complaining have inadvertently pointed out that they're having trouble adjusting to having only two apps on one screen at once. Less than one week is not enough time for any of those people to know for sure whether they'll ever get used to that.

Despite the fact, that I don't post on these forums very often, I couldn't hold myself from doing so this time.

First of all, I've used Windows 8 DP for more than 2 months (mostly for development work). Then I tried the customer preview version. After all the testing, I can say that I cannot and will not adjust. For me, many things in metro interface look quite illogical. The main reason, why I'm saying this that many of you Win8 fanboys imply, that all those who "get" this Windows 8 concept are somehow superior than those who don't. Can you all stop that? All people are different, their work flows are different, for God's sake.

This elitism from both sinofsky, thurott, neowin forum members, who are elite and "get" the new concept, deal with the fact, that people will not like latest and greatest from your favorite company. It's not up to you to decide wheher members who see this metro thing illogical are in any way retards, whiners and in any other way inferior to you. We just don't like it.

As far as Windows 8 launch is concerned, I sense a flop because the outcry is just too big. I'll wait till RTM to make my final decision, but the way things are now, I will skip this Windows version.

[AJerman]

I didn't say "no one" gets it like Paul Thurrott and I do; I said "many" don't. I said many people do not "get" the new concept because they don't. Me "getting" the new concept has nothing to do with what I said about me not being able to give it a good use. I said I haven't been able to completely measure my level of productivity when using Windows 8 compared to my level of productivity when using Windows 7; however, I certainly "get" the new Windows 8 concept. Even if I find that I'm more productive with Windows 7 (which I doubt will happen, but it might), I will still "get" the new Windows 8 concept. I stand firm with my belief that none of you have had time to be able to accurately measure how productive you are with Windows 8 compared to how productive you are with Windows 7, especially as most of those complaining have inadvertently pointed out that they're having trouble adjusting to having only two apps on one screen at once. Less than one week is not enough time for any of those people to know for sure whether they'll ever get used to that.

I don't really think most of us are having an issue understanding the concept, it's the fact that the concept fails to be a good one, as seen by using the system. I'm quite certain that if I used it for a month, I'd learn to adapt my computing to be able to do nearly everything as before, but again, the POINTLESSNESS of needing to do so just so I can have a big colorful full screen start menu is ridiculous. I don't see one positive to Metro that I couldn't have done before, but there are a ton of negatives. I think quite the opposite to what you're saying, YOU need to actually use it rather than discussing concepts. This isn't a concept discussion, the concept can be great, the execution is poor. You don't really need a huge amount of time with the system to see the limitations created by changing how things worked. As it is now, like I said, Metro hasn't added a single positive thing to Windows for me that I didn't have before. It provides tablets with a nice interface, which I'd appreciate and even desire to have (I'd love a Win 8 tablet with a full OS in the back), but I'm not using a tablet, and therefore the new Metro start screen adds NOTHING for me other than covering my entire screen, adding more work for slower systems to launch a simple application, and a number of other limitations that are just unnecessary. If there was gain with the loss, that would be one thing, but I just don't see any gain at all out of what they've added so far, other than pretty colorful graphics.

And the other thing is what I mentioned before. If you have EVER worked in a position supporting non-IT people on computers, you will understand that 90% of them will not get that "concept". People don't like things to change from how they were before. The general public makes up a FAR larger number of users than the techy people like us who likely could get used to the new system quickly if necessary. If you stuck Windows 8 in front of my grandparents or parents, they'd say wtf is this and ask for a normal desktop back. And again, if the reward in learning the new system was worth it, it would be one thing, but where is that reward? What about Metro can you do that you couldn't do before that needed this giant full screen start screen and an entirely new app environment to learn?

[Kelxin]

If you're shutting down a server often enough that a couple extra clicks is a problem you're doing something wrong.

Couple extra clicks??!! Try to use the hot spots on a virtual machine in Hyper-V!

And again, your brain is not looking at the big picture. If you had ONE server, no big deal. I take care of over 400 servers on a daily basis. I probably reboot a server 10 - 30 times a DAY between all the different machines I work on and that doesn't include all of the virtual servers.

Or. How about the initial setup and deploying of server, installing drivers, installing software, registry and policy changes... Reboot, reboot, reboot.

[Calum Veteran]

Despite the fact, that I don't post on these forums very often, I couldn't gold myself from doing so this time.

First of all, I've used Windows 8 DP for more than 2 months (mostly for development work). Then I tried the customer preview version. After all the testing, I can say that I cannot and will not adjust. For me, many things in metro interface look quite illogical. The main reason, why I'm saying this that many of you Win8 fanboys imply, that all those who "get" this Windows 8 concept are somehow superior than those who don't. Can you all stop that? All people are different, their work flows are different, for God's sake.

This elitism from both sinofsky, thurott, neowin forum members, who are elite and "get" the new concept, deal with the fact, that people will not like latest and greatest from your favorite company. It's not up to you to decide wheher members who see this metro thing illogical are in any way retards, whiners and in any other way inferior to you. We just don't like it.

As far as Windows 8 launch is concerned, I sense a flop because the outcry is just too big. I'll wait till RTM to make my final decision, but the way things are now, I will skip this Windows version.

You've very much judged me incorrectly.

I haven't ever implied, suggested, or stated that I am more "elite" or "superior" just because I "get" the new Windows 8 concept.

Microsoft are not my favourite company (presently, Facebook are), and I am not a "Win8 fanboy."

I haven't ever implied, suggested, or stated that those who do not understand the new Windows 8 concept are inferior to me, nor have I decided that they "are in any way retards."

By the way, my post was referring to the Consumer Preview only. You all have to start again with your testing regarding whether the new Metro experience works for you or not because Microsoft apparently made over 100,000 changes in the Consumer Preview, and many of those changes revolved around making Windows 8 better for those who use a mouse and keyboard.

[efjay]

I think Mr Thurrott is right in one thing, so called "techies" are focusing on minor things and trying to create hysteria around them, like the shutdown button as if its is now somehow so complicated and tedious to shutdown a Windows 8 pc. Some have said its slow to move to the corner to call up the Charms bar, others have said its too complex for their users when in reality it really isnt that hard at all. It all points to a general opposition to Windows 8 just because they are used to previous version and not because there is anything wrong with it. Move to bottom left to Start, Shutdown, vs move to top right, Settings, Power, Shutdown. Once performed for the first time, only a simpleton would find that complicated.

Maybe highlighting real problems would lead to a better dialogue rather than making things up to create FUD.

[Kelxin]

When you have to support Windows 2k, XP, Vista, windows 7, Server 2k, 2k3, 2k8, and 2k8 R2 all of which have the same basic navigation and a new OS comes in that says "screw it, you have to learn everything from scratch" ... No, I won't be deploying or supporting it except to remove it from every computer I come across forcibly.

[Woelfel]

The reason why Thurrott is "whining" as some of you put it is because people actually email him, tweet him, etc...for help and I'm sure after getting a plethora of emails I would write something for those questions to be answered so I don't have to repeat myself.

This shutdown thing is ridiculous. 1 extra step for something you do lets say 1 time a day (before you leave work or go to sleep) and it's for SHUTTING DOWN, where there won't be any productivity because the machine is going to be shut down. I may see productivity decreased in multitasking in not having a taskbar, but freaking SHUTTING DOWN!?!?! That's what so many posts (not even this thread, almost every win8 thread) are b*tching about? I could even see restarting being a decrease in productivity, BUT SHUT DOWN? CMON! Can we have something better to whine about. "I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS!"

[dead.cell]

You know what bothers me? People just outright accepting Microsoft's concept. The idea is to make our voices heard, to share our concerns and problems with the OS so that it can become something we can all use. Saying nothing gets both the users and Microsoft nowhere. I'm pretty sure they don't want a flop of an OS release, and we don't want some unusable garbage. Remember: MANY OF US IT FOLKS ARE GONNA BE RESPONSIBLE FOR FIXING THE CRAP IN WINDOWS 8. That my friends is a fact. Fixing Vista issues is bad enough as it is...

Not saying this justifies bitching over the tiniest of things, but I get the sense that some folks are just trying to shut up those who have valid opinions in how Windows 8 is working out for them.

[+Warwagon MVC]

When you have to support Windows 2k, XP, Vista, and windows 7, all of which have the same basic navigation and a new OS comes in that says "screw it, you have to learn everything from scratch" ... No, I won't be deploying or supporting it except to remove it from every computer I come across forcibly.

I bet you've been on the phone doing support and told someone to click something that was right in front of them and it took them a minute to find it after they "Swore it wasn't there". Now take Metro and people that already couldn't locate buttons in front of their face, and have them put their mouse in the top or bottom corner of the screen to reveal buttons or menu's that are HIDDEN! OH GOD!

People might respond with "after they know where it's at they will know how to get to it"

Some People to this day still don't know where the hell the start button is at, and that one is visible!!!!!!

[xWhiplash]

When you have to support Windows 2k, XP, Vista, windows 7, Server 2k, 2k3, 2k8, and 2k8 R2 all of which have the same basic navigation and a new OS comes in that says "screw it, you have to learn everything from scratch" ... No, I won't be deploying or supporting it except to remove it from every computer I come across forcibly.

I agree. There are a few things different between XP and Vista/7 where I need to ask which one they are running first so I can give them the correct steps. Now we will need a third style we need to memorize and support? Not only that, we will need to ask are you on Metro or Desktop now too.

[Elliott]

Now use it, deal with it, and figure it out.

This should be Windows 8's motto. :laugh:

[Ilgauskas]

You've very much judged me incorrectly.

I haven't ever implied, suggested, or stated that I am more "elite" or "superior" just because I "get" the new Windows 8 concept.

Microsoft are not my favourite company (presently, Facebook are), and I am not a "Win8 fanboy."

I haven't ever implied, suggested, or stated that those who do not understand the new Windows 8 concept are inferior to me, nor have I decided that they "are in any way retards."

By the way, my post was referring to the Consumer Preview only. You all have to start again with your testing regarding whether the new Metro experience works for you or not because Microsoft apparently made over 100,000 changes in the Consumer Preview, and many of those changes revolved around making Windows 8 better for those who use a mouse and keyboard.

I wasn't targeting solely you. If I made it look like it, then I apologize. :) But there are plenty of other members who spread this what I call - elitism. I just wanted to explain my opinion about "getting" and "not getting" a concept which I'd call a step backwards. That's why I quoted your post.

I saw the main picture, I'm working with this interface even right now in Customer preview. Currently I still don't like it, despite using it every day.

The main thing, I'm saying is that many people will not like it, because every person tend to use his PC differently. That's why I cannot adjust, and not because I'm (and many other people are) retarded or something like that.

You got my point.

[Melfster]

Despite the fact, that I don't post on these forums very often, I couldn't hold myself from doing so this time.

First of all, I've used Windows 8 DP for more than 2 months (mostly for development work). Then I tried the customer preview version. After all the testing, I can say that I cannot and will not adjust. For me, many things in metro interface look quite illogical. The main reason, why I'm saying this that many of you Win8 fanboys imply, that all those who "get" this Windows 8 concept are somehow superior than those who don't. Can you all stop that? All people are different, their work flows are different, for God's sake.

This elitism from both sinofsky, thurott, neowin forum members, who are elite and "get" the new concept, deal with the fact, that people will not like latest and greatest from your favorite company. It's not up to you to decide wheher members who see this metro thing illogical are in any way retards, whiners and in any other way inferior to you. We just don't like it.

As far as Windows 8 launch is concerned, I sense a flop because the outcry is just too big. I'll wait till RTM to make my final decision, but the way things are now, I will skip this Windows version.

I love you rant but I don't think it really matters what you think. Microsoft knew there would be outcry when they designed Windows 8 and they still went ahead with it. They are designing windows 8 for the future not for the past. I think of Windows 8 as version 1.0 of new OS. I don't really think Windows 8 is designed for todays hardware. I think they are being designed for tomorrows hardware....Ones where you have ASUS transformer prime type hardware. One where you might have High DPI screen.

[Active.]

take Metro and people that already couldn't locate buttons in front of their face, now have to put their mouse in the corner of the screen to reveal hidden buttons or menus.

The funny thing is that, while it looks like what you're revealing is a button (with Metro buttons being flat and all), you aren't actually supposed to click on what is revealed. In fact, the (Start-)'button' will actually vanish if you move your cursor too far away from the corner, regardless of whether the cursor is still over the button. I can see some non-technical users having fun with that... :rofl:

[Ilgauskas]

I love you rant but I don't think it really matters what you think. Microsoft knew there would be outcry when they designed Windows 8 and they still went ahead with it. They are designing windows 8 for the future not for the past. I think of Windows 8 as version 1.0 of new OS. I don't really think Windows 8 is designed for todays hardware. I think they are being designed for tomorrows hardware....Ones where you have ASUS transformer prime type hardware. One where you might have High DPI screen.

That's fine with me. They can design it for whatever they want. I'm not against something that works fantastically for tomorrow's hardware. But if they release it for older desktops, I'd certainly like to see the interface that works best for the so called past and not just put this interface for everything and see what happens.That's what a no-compromise release is.

[PGHammer]

Common sense would tell me to leave the desktop alone while doing innovation on the tablet front. There is no logical or rational reason why touch-first UI needs to be forced on the desktop or why there needs to be just one interface and users can't choose. Paul Thurrott aka "Parrot" is known for sucking up to whatever MS does. Hardly a balanced opinion. Windows 8 is against the very principles of *user in control* and choice/customizability that Microsoft used to offer on Windows and which Apple usually limits on OS X. "We know what's best for you" attitude at Microsoft is at the peak in the Sinofsky era. Less and less customizability of the products.

Common sense would not have resulted in the personal computer.

By your logic, we'd all still be using terminals connected in various ways to mainframes. DEC and Amdahl would still be relevant, and Unisys would not be a services company.

IBM had a shot of taking Windows down early with OS/2, and listened to the same logic you're spouting (among others warning IBM NOT to do what it did was John C. Dvorak). OS/2 was basically left to die, and IBM nearly died with it.

Despite protestation to the contrary, Apple is indeed merging iOS and the OS X userbase (Snow Leopard started the trend, and Lion, and now Mountain Lion, are actually accelerating it). What's more obvious is that Tim Cook (Apple's CEO) doesn't care. He'll be quite happy growing the iDevice market - even at the expense of the OS X market (and the howls of protest he's getting an earful from over exactly that viz. both Lion and Mountain Lion).

Desktop computing - like it or not - is becoming a niche. (All desktop computing - it's not unique to Windows; however, due to Windows being on the majority of desktops and workstations, we, as users of Windows, get the biggest slashing first.)

Microsoft is still primarily a desktop software company; you can best believe that it sees the paradigm shift away from the desktop with serious dread. However, they are not Apple (with their safety-net of iDevices) - they also are not Google (which has no desktop OS itself - it is entirely a software+services company). It *cannot* continue to fight what amounts to a rearguard action against the advance of non-desktop formfactors - it could find itself going the way of DEC (if not bankrupt altogether).

If it cannot retreat, Microsoft MUST advance, as that is the only option left to it.

[+Warwagon MVC]

The funny thing is that, while it looks like what you're revealing is a button (with Metro buttons being flat and all), you aren't actually supposed to click on what is revealed. In fact, the 'button' will actually vanish if you move your cursor too far away from the corner, regardless of whether the cursor is still over the button. I can see some non-technical users having fun with that... :rofl:

Windows 8 support will go something like this

Me - Ok sir, take your mouse and put it in the very bottom left of the screen.

Him - Nothing happened.

Me - The Very bottom

Him - nothing happened.

Me - The Very very bottom left corner

him - Nothing happened.......oh wait... I see something

Me - Now click it

Him - What do i click it with the left or the right buttom?

Me - The Left button

..........

Him - OK

Me - What do you see?

Him - I see MSN

Me - MSN!?!?!

Him - yes..... it says "Internet Explorer"

Me - ....Ok close that, and try it again. Remember you can't move your mouse. Keep it in the bottom left

Him - Same thing.

Me - Ok look on the bottom left of your keyboard for the "Windows key"

Him - I don't see it

Me - It's there, Bottom left, right next to the "Control key"

Him - I don't see it.

Me - It's there.

Him - I don't see anything like that on my screen

Me- NO, not the screen on your physical keyboard

Him - Where on the keyboard again?

Me - Bottom left, it looks like a little round flag

Him - I don't see it

Me - It's there

Him - all I see is control or alt.

Me - it's a round flag

Him - Well I have a control and alt a fn.... I don't have a .......oh wait........... there it is!

[Kelxin]

If it cannot retreat, Microsoft MUST advance, as that is the only option left to it.

\

Only an idiot blindly charges forward when he cannot retreat.

[Salutary7]

The funny thing is that, while it looks like what you're revealing is a button (with Metro buttons being flat and all), you aren't actually supposed to click on what is revealed. In fact, the (Start-)'button' will actually vanish if you move your cursor too far away from the corner, regardless of whether the cursor is still over the button. I can see some non-technical users having fun with that... :rofl:

"No don't click the image that you revealed with your mouse, it's not really a button. Click the invisible button that occupies the 8x8 pixel corner of the screen" :laugh: