windows 8 Windows 8 Consumer Preview: A Call for Common Sense

[Lels]

There will be a tutorial when installing Windows 8 for the first time, these people won't be thrown in the deep end.

I would think most normal users wouldn't care to learn something that seems so different to what they have known. When the average person sits down at their computer they want to get right to what they want to do. Not learn how to use their computer again and then get to what they are wanting to do.

[xWhiplash]

You guys need to realize that if something is not visible on the screen, the average user will not know where to look. I once had to help somebody with their computer saying their taskbar would never come back, it just magically disappeared forever. It turns out, they set it to auto hide. The never moved their mouse down there to have it display again.

If some indication is not there, the average user will not know what to do.

Maybe Microsoft should have a setting in Windows 8 that keeps track on how many times you visited the desktop mode. If it is 5 times or less (just some random number I thought up), show them an overlay that says "Move your mouse here to go back to tiles".

Here is the thing. The average user goes in to Office Depot, Best Buy, or some other place. They see a computer on display and see it in action. If they want to let go what they have learned in the past 20 years and learn something new, fine. But the average user will take a look at Windows 8 and request something else.

This is just a fact, and I cannot believe Microsoft is so blinded by Metro to not see this. With the economy the way it is, more and more people are working multiple jobs. They do not have the time to learn a brand new way of doing things.

And please, can we stop the argument saying the desktop UI NEEDS to evolve? Take a look at OS X Lion and Mountain Lion. Guess what? I can use it the exact same way I have been using OS X since 10.0 because the dock is still there by default

If the desktop HAS to evolve, then it needs to do it more SLOWLY.

[V23]

You guys need to realize that if something is not visible on the screen, the average user will not know where to look. I once had to help somebody with their computer saying their taskbar would never come back, it just magically disappeared forever. It turns out, they set it to auto hide. The never moved their mouse down there to have it display again.

If some indication is not there, the average user will not know what to do.

Maybe Microsoft should have a setting in Windows 8 that keeps track on how many times you visited the desktop mode. If it is 5 times or less (just some random number I thought up), show them an overlay that says "Move your mouse here to go back to tiles".

Here is the thing. The average user goes in to Office Depot, Best Buy, or some other place. They see a computer on display and see it in action. If they want to let go what they have learned in the past 20 years and learn something new, fine. But the average user will take a look at Windows 8 and request something else.

This is just a fact, and I cannot believe Microsoft is so blinded by Metro to not see this. With the economy the way it is, more and more people are working multiple jobs. They do not have the time to learn a brand new way of doing things.

And please, can we stop the argument saying the desktop UI NEEDS to evolve? Take a look at OS X Lion and Mountain Lion. Guess what? I can use it the exact same way I have been using OS X since 10.0 because the dock is still there by default

If the desktop HAS to evolve, then it needs to do it more SLOWLY.

OSX and iOS are converging, give it time. The iPad is selling phenomenally well and that is different to the traditional desktop experience, how did people learn to use that?

[Dot Matrix]

And please, can we stop the argument saying the desktop UI NEEDS to evolve? Take a look at OS X Lion and Mountain Lion. Guess what? I can use it the exact same way I have been using OS X since 10.0 because the dock is still there by default

And that is proving to be detrimental, at least to me. Mac's UI is quite archaic to use compared to the likes of Windows 7. It drives me nuts that I still have to command-Q to fully quit a program.

[xWhiplash]

OSX and iOS are converging, give it time. The iPad is selling phenomenally well and that is different to the traditional desktop experience, how did people learn to use that?

Um, that is exactly what I said. My point is, they are doing it SLOWLY. I still have the dock by default. I am not thrown into iOS interface and FORCED to use it on the new OS X. I can still use it the same way I have been for 10 years.

The iPads are doing well because it has a consistent UI. You are not thrown into an OS X interface sometimes on the iPad. This is why Windows 8 will fail, having two separate UIs at the same time will confuse most of the general population.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

I would think most normal users wouldn't care to learn something that seems so different to what they have known. When the average person sits down at their computer they want to get right to what they want to do. Not learn how to use their computer again and then get to what they are wanting to do.

with a thought process like that, we'd still be on Windows 3.1 or DOS

I don't understand why people find it so difficult to learn something new

like the old saying goes "you can't improve if you're not willing to change"

[V23]

Um, that is exactly what I said. My point is, they are doing it SLOWLY. I still have the dock by default. I am not thrown into iOS interface and FORCED to use it on the new OS X. I can still use it the same way I have been for 10 years.

The iPads are doing well because it has a consistent UI. You are not thrown into an OS X interface sometimes on the iPad. This is why Windows 8 will fail, having two separate UIs at the same time will confuse most of the general population.

The two UI set-up is part of the gradual change that you wanted, if they went full Metro you'd be complaining even more.

[xWhiplash]

The two UI set-up is part of the gradual change that you wanted, if they went full Metro you'd be complaining even more.

They are doing it the wrong way was my reason. Metro should be 100% optional. What we see now should be Windows 9 where Metro is standard.

Most of the complaints would be fixed if they just brought back the start menu in desktop mode. Why is it such a bad idea to have both? Everybody will be happy with it. Both sides win.

In fact, most complaints would be fixed if they brought back some indication of a "start". Not just assuming somebody will move their mouse down there and find it. Most users need it to say Start in order to even move their mouse there.

[Mazhar]

Time to grow up people, no benefit of whining about: I am used to that and I am used to this, I have been using since, blah blah blah.

New Time. New Year. New Windows.

[V23]

They are doing it the wrong way was my reason. Metro should be 100% optional. What we see now should be Windows 9 where Metro is standard.

Most of the complaints would be fixed if they just brought back the start menu in desktop mode. Why is it such a bad idea to have both? Everybody will be happy with it. Both sides win.

In fact, most complaints would be fixed if they brought back some indication of a "start". Not just assuming somebody will move their mouse down there and find it. Most users need it to say Start in order to even move their mouse there.

If Metro was optional in Windows 8 the majority of people who fear change or are unable to adapt would just disable it. Then what do Microsoft do with Windows 9? You have to give people a bit of a push in order to break old habits and, after the initial adaptation period, they will learn the benefits of such a change.

[xWhiplash]

Again, the thing is, the general population will "deal with it" by simply requesting Windows 7 again.

Is that really the Windows 8 tagline: "Deal with it"?

Computers were not as common as they are now. The majority of the general population learned how to use their computer after Windows 95. They know the basics of all Windows operating systems. Start is (default) at the bottom left, clock and notification area are on the bottom right. I can easily give somebody a Windows 7 machine, and if they ever used a computer before, they will know how to use it. Start - ...

For a tablet and other devices, this UI works perfectly. But when people get a desktop, they expect a standard taskbar like interface that have seen in every Windows version since 95.

I have seen people use Windows 8, and the very minute they are thrown to the "desktop UI" they become lost. This is why I think Microsoft needs to implement a overlay on the desktop for the first several times you visit the desktop UI. This overlay will show you what area does what.

I think if Microsoft do what I have in bold above, most of these complaints will be fixed, and Windows 8 will be MUCH easier to use for the general public.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

start is still in the bottom left, notifications are still in the bottom right

the only difference is now a button doesn't appear till your mouse goes to the corner and the start menu now takes up the entire screen

it's not all that game changing

[xWhiplash]

the only difference is now a button doesn't appear till your mouse goes to the corner and the start menu now takes up the entire screen

That is the problem, and it would fix most of the complaints I hear about Windows 8. If they have some indication that moving your mouse there is the actual start area, it would help most users.

I paused for a second wondering where it moved to. I was looking for a "Back to tiles" option towards the top. But I decided to move my mouse to the bottom left and there we go. It is not that intuitive, and I consider myself a very techy person.

[Mazhar]

That is the problem, and it would fix most of the complaints I hear about Windows 8. If they have some indication that moving your mouse there is the actual start area, it would help most users.

What Microsoft can do at most is, after a fresh install of Windows 8, it may give you an interactive tutorial about what's where and that would be enough. But Start menu is not going to come back for sure and it shouldn't.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

you have to remember though that it's still a beta

it is still very likely that the "first use indicators" that you're talking about will be in there when it RTM's

But Start menu is not going to come back for sure and it shouldn't.

you're wrong on that front. the start menu hasn't gone anywhere, it's just evolved into it's own screen

it's still got all the functionality of the old menu (in some form or another) and more

[V23]

Here's a quote from an actual Microsoft employee:

"I think a lot of pessimism around the web stems from people who think they'll just throw Windows 8 out to the masses and hope everyone figures things out on their own.

That couldn't be further from what will happen though. Even the Kindle Fire had a 10-15 step tutorial when I first turned it on.

Even the iPad integrates education right into their ads. Yeah, the iPad is a much simpler device than Windows 8, but there's still a lot of gestures to learn. 2/3/4-figure gestures, slide-down to notification center, double-tap home button right now, etc. There's a lot to learn.

There will undoubtedly be a ton of education integrated right into Windows 8 advertising, retail, web sites, and probably even some sort of tutorial when you first start using it too.

The hurdle is the education. Once you actually know how to use it, it's really easy and makes a lot of sense.

[Mazhar]

"There will undoubtedly be a ton of education integrated right into Windows 8 advertising, retail, web sites, and probably even some sort of tutorial when you first start using it too.

The hurdle is the education. Once you actually know how to use it, it's really easy and makes a lot of sense."

This.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

Couldn't have put it better myself

[Wyn6]

Responding to myxomatosis... my mom is in her sixties and she uses her computer regular to bid for and sell things on eBay. She is certainly the average user and an older one at that. But, I know for a fact she doesn't ever use the Start button except to shut down. Once she learned how to do this in 8, she would be using like she does 7 for the most part. The average Joe probably uses the Start button only to shut down their computer. and I say probably because unlike many people here my speculation isn't fact.

[Brandon H Supervisor]

Windows 8 -> Click Metro Start Menu, type Event Viewer and nothing will be found so you have to click Settings. Event Viewer cannot be pinned to Taskbar.

Windows 7 -> Start Menu, Type, Run or Right Click on it to pin to Taskbar

Here is one Windows 8 case scenario. OS is a ****ing failure UI wise.

sounds more like a random bug due to it being a BETA

try reporting it, it'll probably be fixed by RC

[techguy77]

sounds more like a random bug due to it being a BETA

try reporting it, it'll probably be fixed by RC

It is not a random bug. Anything you search for can be Apps, Setting or File. Default view is on Apps which means when Event Viewer is not found average Joe will be like oh well nothing is found. However if you click on Settings Category you will see it is there. Also i don't think MS wants us to pin Event Viewer to Taskbar anymore. As I said complete wrong UI solution.

[Mazhar]

It is not a random bug. Anything you search for can be Apps, Setting or File. Default view is on Apps which means when Event Viewer is not found average Joe will be like oh well nothing is found. However if you click on Settings Category you will see it is there. Also i don't think MS wants us to pin Event Viewer to Taskbar anymore. As I said complete wrong UI solution.

Why don't you pin it in the Start Screen?

[Wyn6]

It is not a random bug. Anything you search for can be Apps, Setting or File. Default view is on Apps which means when Event Viewer is not found average Joe will be like oh well nothing is found. However if you click on Settings Category you will see it is there. Also i don't think MS wants us to pin Event Viewer to Taskbar anymore. As I said complete wrong UI solution.

I know some of you guys are determined not to like Windows 8 and that's fine by me. But, I'm not sure if you're trying to convince others not to like it as well or what. Because, techguy, your're comment is really grasping at straws.

The Average Joe will not search for the Event Viewer because he has no idea what it is or what it's for. What? One out of one hundred people MIGHT know what it is? Hell, I know what it is and I don't use the darn thing.

Seriously guys, there's a difference between a productive dislike of something in which you give feedback on how you would like to see THAT product improved (not turned into a previous product), hence the beta. But, just outright unsubstantiated hate? That doesn't help anybody and it certainly doesn't help MS in the event they were looking to benefit from your feedback. Because, you're not expressing what you truly believe to be the issue and suggestions to rectify those issues. Yes, some of you have. I'm not talking about you.

Saying the OS is "fail" or this expletive or that, or it sucks or it's not the same as before or it should add back in everything we use to have, accomplishes nothing. But, making these statements and then supporting said statements with actual scenarios or evidence on how this negatively affects how you use a PC be it for play or work, is considerably more productive than what you've been doing. And, allow me to put forth that most of us probably haven't used it long enough to give a full view of how it affects what we do on a computer negative or positive. Probably more so business-wise than casually.

But, if there's one thing I know about geeks and geek forums, is that I'm getting carpal tunnel for nothing. C'est la vie, eh?

[zhangm Supervisor]

The Average Joe will not search for the Event Viewer because he has no idea what it is or what it's for. What? One out of one hundred people MIGHT know what it is? Hell, I know what it is and I don't use the darn thing.

I'm a bit surprised that our local Elites don't know that they can launch Event Viewer using eventvwr.msc.

[Kazriko]

I'm sure I'm not going to convince anyone here, but I would like to bring up some old usability studies that I learned about when taking a UI class in college. They gave two sets of users two different User Interfaces and tried to gauge their happiness with them. One set were novice users who had barely used a computer, and the other were experienced computer users. The UI's that they gave them were A. A tiled desktop where no window could ever overlap another and B. A desktop where windows could be moved around and layered at will. If I recall the study correctly, the tiled interface completely flummoxed the experienced users and left them much less efficient than the desktop. The novice users were initially better on the tiled interface, but with a few weeks of experience began to prefer the full windowed system and were more efficient on it.

I worry that in their pursuit of the tablet market where their idea of only 2 apps on the screen at any given time in a 80/20 tiled arrangement is going to end up being less efficient for most users. It works great on small, 7-10 inch screens, but when you're dealing with 22-55 inch monitors it's just going to be a horrible waste of real estate. I personally am currently using W8 on a system with 2 monitors that are 24-26 inches in size, and find metro apps to take up more space than they really need to accomplish their task. I'm also still waiting on the ability to do scaling of windows in such a way that they can be smoothly stretched without changing their relative internal proportions... Something that's lacking in pretty much every desktop OS I've ever used aside from some OpenGL derived ones.

I certainly wouldn't be able to work a 80/20 split on the applications I use for my job, as I typically have more than 2 that I need to be able to see at once. If Microsoft is planning on eventually phasing out the desktop entirely, I'm going to need to find another platform to do my job on. Parity between apps on tablets and PCs is certainly a worthy goal, but I hope that they aren't chasing a new market at the expense of all of the people that need to get real work done with their computers. The ability to reduce metro apps down to a re-sizable window would be one step that would preserve the usability of the desktop and still allow app compatibility with tablets.