+Fahim S. MVC Posted August 8, 2012 MVC Share Posted August 8, 2012 Better yet, one UI that would satisfy both. One UI is incapable of satisfying both - if it was you wouldn't have as many people here whining like little babies. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073041 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CentralDogma Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 One UI is incapable of satisfying both - if it was you wouldn't have as many people here whining like little babies. If we?re accepting that it?s impossible to create a UI that satisfies both keyboard and mouse users as well as touch screen users, doesn?t that really call into question main design decisions of Windows 8? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BajiRav Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 MS price things to what the local market can bear. Previous version have cost up to hundreds of USD, but only a fraction of that in poorer nations like India. W8 is going to cost 40 bucks for an upgrade version. That's probably cheaper than W7 cost in India, so do you really think they won't proportionally drop the price for you guys? Besides... I don't consider a hundred or so over expensive when it's software I use every single day, for everything. Windows pricing in India was on par with the US prices. It was almost always direct currency conversion (IIRC). Summing up the fact you have two 40-inch screens adds little to your story really. On my 27-inch screen with a 2650 x 1440 resolution most Metro apps do waste away screen estate. Frequently there simply isn't enough content to fill the screen with. Not to mention many apps have a lot of empty space that isn't used for anything to begin with. Having everything full-screen or a limitation of two windows split 80/20 is pointless on larger screens. Am I able to do something as basic as this in Metro? (see screen shot) I think you misunderstood his post. He was pointing out that Windows 8 desktop can work equally well as Windows 7 and metro apps are optional (which he is using on one screen). Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 But you dont like Metro or the Metro apps, so why use them at all when you can use the desktop and achieve what you want? The desktop allows you to have as many windows open as you want, and with all your programs on the taskbar or the desktop is there really a problem? The point is some here try to claim Metro doesn't have any serious usability issues while in fact it does. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tha Bloo Monkee Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 lol would you mind telling us some other reasons why Windows 8 is so bad OP, besides "omg start menu suxxx"? :/ Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 lol would you mind telling us some other reasons why Windows 8 is so bad OP, besides "omg start menu suxxx"? :/ Windows 8 doesn't have a Start menu. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Fahim S. MVC Posted August 8, 2012 MVC Share Posted August 8, 2012 If we?re accepting that it?s impossible to create a UI that satisfies both keyboard and mouse users as well as touch screen users, doesn?t that really call into question main design decisions of Windows 8? For any fully functional app, yes - but then you don't have to use any Metro apps. The Start Screen is something which can be built to work fine on Touch, Mouse & Keyboard - surprisingly that's the only bit of the Metro UI that Mouse & Keyboard users have to use, yet the whining continues... Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BajiRav Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Because it showcases a failure of design. Rather than making a UI that worked well on both touch and M+K, they created one for both and just jammed them both into Windows 8. Now, I haven?t had any great deal of time with Windows 8 and I don?t plan to until they release the trial version of Windows Server 2012, but from what reviews I?ve read, this is a persistent problem in Windows 8. Things like the Metro IE not getting bookmarks from desktop IE. From what I?ve heard, there was no real effort put into harmonize Metro and the desktop and they both just sit in their own worlds. People are still bitching about start button! now imagine if Microsoft replaced/removed the "old" control panel entirely. IMAGINE THE HORROR!. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I think you misunderstood his post. He was pointing out that Windows 8 desktop can work equally well as Windows 7 and metro apps are optional (which he is using on one screen). Yeah, I don't know why people complain about that. The desktop in Windows 8 really isn't fundamentally different from the one you find in Windows 8. Ignoring the Start menu of course. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tha Bloo Monkee Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Well the Start Menu dates back to the early 90's... time to move on. Should we be using floppies too? Dot Matrix 1 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BajiRav Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 The point is some here try to claim Metro doesn't have any serious usability issues while in fact it does. I think if apps are designed to adapt to increased resolution, then it will solve the problem on larger screens. The API supports it, sadly none of the apps so far (save for onenoteMX?) have shown anything promising. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Now that the power menu is popping up again in the tread, don't you wish they updated the look of that a bit more? It looks like it comes right out of Win2000. Love the options, but hate how it looks There's a reason for how it looks - it's actually in the same style of a right-click menu in anything else (desktop, Taskbar, etc.). In fact, I have a fairly good idea where that old look likely came from - that *compatibility code* still rattling around in EXPLORER.EXE. EXPLORER.EXE is used for a LOT of stuff - fortunately, getting an idea just how MUCH stuff it gets used for is rather simple; just launch Task Manager. When you do, look at how many times EXPLORER.EXE shows up *and* not only the number of instances it shows up, but the thread count - both of each instance, and the sum of the instances. EXPLORER.EXE is *the* graphical shell for most of Windows (basically, if an application doesn't have its own shell, it leverages EXPLORER.EXE) and it's been that way back to Windows/286 at the very least. Do you remember the "Engineer's Proverb"? It's rather simple - "if I had a proper lever, I could move the world." In the world of Windows, EXPLORER.EXE is that lever. Reliance on EXPLORER.EXE is both a blessing and a curse, however - you can't really make too major a change to EXPLORER.EXE without causing Windows' vaunted backward compatibility to go "splat". WinRT is a new API that doesn't rely on EXPLORER.EXE - again, both blessing and curse (blessing in that it doesn't have the problems of MDI, but curse that it also lacks MDI's benefits). Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 If we?re accepting that it?s impossible to create a UI that satisfies both keyboard and mouse users as well as touch screen users, doesn?t that really call into question main design decisions of Windows 8? Exactly. Metro should have been part of Windows Phone and a Windows "Tablet" OS only. Obviously Microsoft could have brought some Metro influences over to Windows desktop, just like Apple did with OS X. The whole notion of having two completely different interfaces with each their own set of apps, meant for two vastly different input methods within one OS is just insane. srbeen, +virtorio, grayscale and 1 other 4 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dot Matrix Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Exactly. Metro should have been part of Windows Phone and a Windows "Tablet" OS only. Obviously Microsoft could have brought some Metro influences over to Windows desktop, just like Apple did with OS X. The whole notion of having two completely different interfaces with each their own set of apps, meant for two vastly different input methods within one OS is just insane. But what happens when I dock my tablet and need the full power of Windows? I'm now stuck with the need for two devices. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woelfel Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 As for wasted space, of course if you have Internet Explorer open taking up the screen then you're not going to waste space are you, but when you're on the Start screen there is a bit of wasted space, nevermind the huge buttons that on a desktop are just silly. For tablets, they're great! How long am I looking at the start screen though? Summing up the fact you have two 40-inch screens adds little to your story really. On my 27-inch screen with a 2650 x 1440 resolution most Metro apps do waste away screen estate. Frequently there simply isn't enough content to fill the screen with. Not to mention many apps have a lot of empty space that isn't used for anything to begin with. Having everything full-screen or a limitation of two windows split 80/20 is pointless on larger screens. Am I able to do something as basic as this in Metro? (see screen shot) There aren't many (if any) information dense apps...YET. Do they have two windowed apps like yours, in Metro, nope. But the desktop is still there. So what's the issue with Windows 8? The fact of the matter is that I can still use information dense applications and simple applications at the same time. One taking one screen and one taking the other. I used a website and messenger on metro, and I used another website and an application in the desktop. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
srbeen Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 But what happens when I dock my tablet and need the full power of Windows? I'm now stuck with the need for two devices. how exactly are you 'stuck' with the need for two devices? I don't get this. Metro is not a needed part of a desktop OS but makes the phones/tablets UI. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073127 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrolson85 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Windows 8 made me switch to OSX..... Hope your happy Microsoft... LOL just joking. Im sticking to Windows 7 for life! Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073129 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I think it?s a fundamental issue, if Microsoft is touting this as a marrying of desktop and mobile and their solution is simply to duplicate functionality and tailor it to each. It?s not really solving the problem. And correct me if I?m wrong, but there is functionality in the Metro control panel that?s not in the desktop control panel and vice versa. And I agree, but why not share bookmarks? Why not share open tabs? Why did Microsoft make a second IE for Metro, rather than have different UIs for the same underlying program? Better yet, one UI that would satisfy both. Because a single UI *doesn't* satisfy both - not even in Android (which was why it forked in the first place - iOS doesn't even attempt to satisfy both). The UIs (plural) in Android 4.x are heavily influenced by 3.x; however, there are differences between 4.x and 3.x - the differences are even more marked between 4.x and 2.3 (let alone 2.2) as smartphone users are discovering the hard (and in some cases quite painful) way. Smartphones are, however, a lot easier to replace than computers, even with early contract-termination fees; if you find out that your older Android smartphone doesn't handle the upgrade that well, you buy a newer model. While computers have gotten cheaper for their power, they aren't free. Worse, there is the very real issue of it possibly being a *user failing*. There's a lot of *pride* in being the *resident geek* in the family - how many of us would admit to being stumped by any sort of technological gee-wizardry? At all? For that reason, it's also far easier to blame the technology that has us stumped than to face that it may well be our own failing, not that of the technology. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dot Matrix Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 how exactly are you 'stuck' with the need for two devices? I don't get this. Metro is not a needed part of a desktop OS but makes the phones/tablets UI. Read what I said. I have a tablet. I dock it and need the full power of windows. What now? Ergo: two devices. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073145 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 But what happens when I dock my tablet and need the full power of Windows? I'm now stuck with the need for two devices. If you truly need the "full power of Windows" you'll have a proper desktop machine or a high-end notebook. Not simply a Surface. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woelfel Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Little by little computers get easier for average people to use so that more people can use them. Windows 8 is like having a car that has both manual and automatic transmission. Power users can still use manual, casual users can use automatic. But also, when power users are lazy, they can also use automatic. It is that simple. Deal with it. +Fahim S. 1 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073163 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEVER85 Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Windows 8 made me switch to OSX..... Hope your happy Microsoft... LOL just joking. Im sticking to Windows 7 for life! So you plan to die in 2020? Because that's when Windows 7 will stop being supported. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subhadip Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Little by little computers get easier for average people to use so that more people can use them. Windows 8 is like having a car that has both manual and automatic transmission. Power users can still use manual, casual users can use automatic. But also, when power users are lazy, they can also use automatic. It is that simple. Deal with it. Power users are heavily offended by the existence of automatic, however, even though you could simply choose to use manual. Woelfel, Stoffel and Ice_Blue 3 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolguy Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 After reading this topic, I guess I need to stick with win 7. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073187 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woelfel Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Power users are heavily offended by the existence of automatic, however, even though you could simply choose to use manual. This. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/18/#findComment-595073191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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