briangw Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 CW, Win8 only loads Metro at boot. The uproar is because the desktop has been moved to 'legacy' app status in this release which is generally a signal for its expiration. Just because the button is there today doesn't mean that the fundamental shift isn't happening right now. Thats what I find frustrating, not a single proponent thinks WinRT is a replacement for the Desktop, but they are all (contradictingly) sure of 1) the Desktops guaranteed existence and 2) that the Desktop is dead. So that remains the question, why do you think the goal is to ever integrate the 'desktop mode' into RT? A single, ubiquitous release that runs on many devices (except for, you know, the devices that make up the new markets - phones/slates), is touch optimized, and has no concept of a file system has little need for the desktop metaphor. Exactly. This really is no different in how we moved from the look and functionality of Windows 3.x into 95 and above by taking MS-DOS away. Change happens and these devs will get on board like they did years ago. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595089391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I reckon the new experience could well have potential to fully replace the "old" experience. I probably won't be entirely sure until I see a WinRT version of Photostop, Visual Studio, and some other more complex programs, but it might be possible (I haven't yet thought it through fully) :) And that is precisely what is terrifying the critics - that such a creature could be possible. Nobody (at all) has said that such a creature is possible - in fact, Steven Sinofsky has flatly denied that such a creature is possible. However, the very can-do-ness in IT that was, in a way, part of the key to Rover Curiousity, is flat-out scaring the evangelists; they are terrified that Steven Sinofsky is wrong. WindowsRT (as an OS) is no less than the replacement for the old Starter Edition - the lockdown is now defined by hardware - not whether or not the market is *emerging* or *developed*. Windows 8, on the other hand, is a deliberately-defined superset of WindowsRT *and* an upgrade from Windows 7 - Core replaces Home Basic and Home Premium SKUs of 7, while Pro replaces the Professional/Business/Ultimate SKUs (also from 7). However, it will upgrade clear down to XP Service Pack 3 (x32) or Vista sans Service Packs (x64). Unlike WindowsRT (or even 7 Starter), there's no either/or - not even in Core (except for WMC, which Core lacks a direct upgrade path to); however, like 7 Starter, there is an upgrade path (Anytime Upgrades remain an option in Windows 8 - a carryover from not merely 7, but Vista, where the feature originated). Basically there is plenty that is improved from Windows 7 - there's also a crapton of carryover (not just from 7, but even from Vista and XP); however, you have to get past the fear to notice it. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595089431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 I feel the charms bar is great. It ensures all devices running Windows 8 have the same functionality. In theory this helps from a tech support stand point. Obviously it will suck at first, but when people start getting the hang of things it will become second nature. Exactly - what gave me my own epiphany was discovering ways the Charm Bar was superior to the features it replaced and enhanced compared to a LOT of the badly-broken Start menu - and this is on a *desktop PC* (keyboard and mouse) - and that was back with the Developer Preview. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595089467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dashel Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 And that is precisely what is terrifying the critics - that such a creature could be possible. Nobody (at all) has said that such a creature is possible - in fact, Steven Sinofsky has flatly denied that such a creature is possible. However, the very can-do-ness in IT that was, in a way, part of the key to Rover Curiousity, is flat-out scaring the evangelists; they are terrified that Steven Sinofsky is wrong. Not terrified it might be possible, but how neutered and closed the end result may be. Maybe unlike you guys, critics actually do have the can-do-ness to want WinRT to superceed and replace Win32 entirely - except its embryonic development (and intentional limitations) is so far away from that goal that MS doesn't want to scare YOU fools with the possibility by admitting that is the long goal. There is nothing to indicate Metro can be fixed because ole Steven says he can't architect a non-Siamese solution anyway. What sense does that make from poser futurists tired of 'dull and boring'? Active. 1 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595089549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoffel Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Why do people expect MS to talk so much about the desktop? It's still there, it works as before, they showed us some nice new features, like storage spaces, new copy dialog, ribbon in explorer,.... All the new stuff is about Metro, so that's what they will focus on. Don't know for sure, but does Apple talk about all the old features in iOS or OSX when they release a new version? Don't think so It's not because they don't spend a lot of time talking about it that they are treating it like a second class citizen. The desktop is so mature they can't update it that much anymore. You all say that Win7 was pretty much perfect anyway. I think the desktop will be here for a while. They are not going to shoot themselves in the foot by removing it to soon CG-88 1 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595089561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganX Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Exactly - what gave me my own epiphany was discovering ways the Charm Bar was superior to the features it replaced and enhanced compared to a LOT of the badly-broken Start menu - and this is on a *desktop PC* (keyboard and mouse) - and that was back with the Developer Preview. I've warmed to Windows 8 but it's this type of comment that keep some from really giving it a chance. 1) The Charm bar really doesn't replace or enhance any Start Menu features, it doesn't do much at all. It's 4 links and a start page button. You could do a WHOLE lot more with the Start Button. I'm not saying I miss any of those things at this point, just sayin ... 2) The Start Menu wasn't broken man, come on. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595089575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicane-UK Veteran Posted August 14, 2012 Veteran Share Posted August 14, 2012 OK... I decided to spend a few days with the Release Preview at home, prior to RTM being available. My initial impressions were favourable.. it feels fast, and in principle, I liked the idea of the new start screen rather than the start menu. I have to say though after a bit of time just spent doing some normal things with it, it's become increasingly infuriating. And not just because I'm incapable of using a computer or adapting to a different way of doing things - but because I can't make the OS behave in a logical way. I dread to think how this is going to go down with older / more casual computer users. Google Chrome. It now has a Metro application. If you select it as your default browser, it will insist on loading a Metro version of the app on the new start screen. Like IE, it runs full screen and runs in some kind of reduced mode so seems to be (for example) missing all my bookmarks that are present on the desktop version. This would be fine, and I'd just like the option to disable it and always make it use the desktop version of the application.. but no. There is no way. OK I thought - so I'll go find the Chrome application and pin that to the start menu. That worked.. once.. and then when I go back to the start screen, Windows has removed it. No matter how many times I re-add it this way, it just immediately prunes it again. It *wants* me to use the Metro version whether I want to or not. Now - I appreciate this is one application, and this is the behavior of that application more than the behavior of Windows specifically.. but if this is the way things going, I think my enthusiasm for Windows 8 is going to be very short lived :| Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595089577 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthonyd Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Now - I appreciate this is one application, and this is the behavior of that application more than the behavior of Windows specifically.. but if this is the way things going, I think my enthusiasm for Windows 8 is going to be very short lived :| It's just Google Chrome that is bad, don't give up on Windows 8 because of a single app. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595089705 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerFan Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 No, its markedly different. I'm asking, specifically, why this singular version is putting off many that had NO prior debate of actually running the latest and greatest. I have 'qualms' about every MS OS, not ONCE has that ever made me think yea, I'll wait for the next version. That is the question that deserves an answer and it is a new and unique phenomenon. I can't tell you how many 20 year+ industry people I've heard that exact statement from. 'This is the FIRST new edition of Windows, ever, that I won't be upgrading to at RTM' This is exactly what I've been telling people at work since the consumer preview. I had a lot of things that bugged me about Vista, and a couple with 7. But nothing even close to the same level as 8 - like you said it's the first OS from MS that I already know I will never use as a main OS. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595089723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dot Matrix Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 CW, Win8 only loads Metro at boot. The uproar is because the desktop has been moved to 'legacy' app status in this release which is generally a signal for its expiration. Just because the button is there today doesn't mean that the fundamental shift isn't happening right now. Thats what I find frustrating, not a single proponent thinks WinRT is a replacement for the Desktop, but they are all (contradictingly) sure of 1) the Desktops guaranteed existence and 2) that the Desktop is dead. So that remains the question, why do you think the goal is to ever integrate the 'desktop mode' into RT? A single, ubiquitous release that runs on many devices (except for, you know, the devices that make up the new markets - phones/slates), is touch optimized, and has no concept of a file system has little need for the desktop metaphor. The desktop isn't going away. Backwards compatibility guarantees that. What I think will happen though, is that you'll see old, legacy apps get their own virtualized environment to run in, while newer stuff is ported to use the Modern APIs, while of course the Modern APIs/UI continues to advance. Look for more legacy code to be purged from Windows over the next few years. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595089749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MistaT40 Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Loving Win 8 so far - it was a small learning curve, but once you pick things up and all - pretty neat. Can't wait to get the actual release. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595090455 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganX Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 The Charms bar does far more than that. It also has specific functionality in context to whatever app is in use. Try opening the Music app for instance and clicking on the Search Charm...it will be contextual search just for that Music app. OK, I'll give you that, but search is still search. Contextual search is nice. Would be nice if it was contextual when in my Music Library in explorer since the Music App sucks IMO. I'm not sure I've ever played music on my PC as a main app, I'm always multitasking. Xbox, yes, PC, not so much. Devices is pretty much worthless for 99% of users and will remain that way. Not sure why that's not buried deeper and may power or something going on Charms bar. Share is mostly a waste IMO. Would rather have the option to put something like SkyDrive there. Even in corporate environment, few users are allowed to share. None if these nit picks are major, just doesn't add much IMO. I like it, it's no Start Menu, but Start Menu isn't really needed except for long menu type stuff. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595092345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDboyz Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Good news guys !!! Microsoft has answered to the criers about the missing start menu. They will release special version of Windows 8 Desktop. They will change the logo and change the Win7 ISO to Win8 Desktop version. Hope everyone is happy now. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595092491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeerFan Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 Good news guys !!! Microsoft has answered to the criers about the missing start menu. They will release special version of Windows 8 Desktop. They will change the logo and change the Win7 ISO to Win8 Desktop version. Hope everyone is happy now. And your source for that info is...? Methinks i smell bull****. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595092555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Active. Posted August 15, 2012 Share Posted August 15, 2012 I don't know I am waiting for MSDN version. No change. In fact, I can't find much of anything that has substantially changed. :/ Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595093339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BajiRav Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 No change. In fact, I can't find much of anything that has substantially changed. :/ I still haven't finished installing :( I blew up my primary partition and then realized it's an MBR disk and to wipe out my other partition, I need to backup some stuff. Burning a Live CD now :s Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595093519 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Not terrified it might be possible, but how neutered and closed the end result may be. Maybe unlike you guys, critics actually do have the can-do-ness to want WinRT to superceed and replace Win32 entirely - except its embryonic development (and intentional limitations) is so far away from that goal that MS doesn't want to scare YOU fools with the possibility by admitting that is the long goal. There is nothing to indicate Metro can be fixed because ole Steven says he can't architect a non-Siamese solution anyway. What sense does that make from poser futurists tired of 'dull and boring'? Actually, I agree with Steven Sinofsky - with the *current* state of development art, a full-fledged (and fully Modern UI/WinRT) version of a major application such as Photoshop isn't possible. Also, have you ever considered that WinRT is deliberately NOT designed to be able to produce such applications? Look at the WinRT API and especially WindowsRT in particular - neither is designed to support *heavy* (as in traditional) applications, games, or anything else - if anything, WinRT (the API) and WindowsRT (the OS) are designed to take care of the light work that is currently bogging down Win32. It's entirely possible we could see WinRT versions of several still-Win32 applets that have been included with Windows since 3.x - Notepad and Calculator in particular are prime candidates for such a swap. However, Win32 (as an API) is still quite safe. (I brought up Notepad and Calculator due to both still being in Windows 8 today, and both being still Win32.) Another example is OneNote MX (which actually is a Modern UI app) - while quite capable, it doesn't fully replace OneNote. (It *could* replace Notepad at some point, however.) The Win32 API isn't going anywhere. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595093565 Share on other sites More sharing options...
scaramonga Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 http://www.infoworld.com/d/microsoft-windows/windows-8-review-yes-its-bad-200113?page=0,0 Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595093637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 say what, Windows 7 doesn't need a reboot for audio drivers, neither for video drivers. it does NOT need reboots for general drivers at all anymore (shouldn't need it for any driver installs). its the OEM and manufactures with crappy written drivers that don't use the Windows driver API properly. Nvidia still forces reboots for its video drivers, while theres no need. The reason why Windows 7 required a reboot for audio drivers is due to the Windows Audio Service not supporting dynamic reload - WDDM 1.1 (the Windows 7 display driver standard) does. (The issue with the Windows Audio Service was, in fact, fixed in Windows 8 - however, as was the case with Windows 7, some OEMs/IHVs are late getting the news. And your statement regarding NV is indeed true; which is why I pointed out that Creative added that no-longer-needed reboot cycle in their Windows 8 drivers, which are carryover.) Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1096309-windows-8-is-the-first-os-that-made-me-downgrade/page/32/#findComment-595113311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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