Reality check - Windows 8 was not made for you

[Subhadip]

As far as the basic UI functionality is concerned, the two aren't really that different though are they?

For example, there's currently no indication as to how Metro will handle editing or displaying two documents next to each other in an app. Can we really expect that functionality to just show up one day out of the blue?

It will be a gradual process, I am sure. Paul Thurrott has talked about this matter on his blog / podcasts.

Check out the Future Vision videos, particularly Productivity Future Vision, to find out where Metro will take us.

[ZombieFly]

ZombieFly, you are making the assumption that WinRT will stay as it is forever. This is most definitely WinRT 1.0. Look back to OS X 10.1 (or even Android 1.0), it was damn near useless, but a few years later, particularly with 10.5 Leopard, it matured into a pretty good OS. Desktop is not going away any time soon. It will eventually, but when it does go, it will be for a good reason.

look back at windows 95 and windows 7. there was a roadmap for change that made the start menu more compact and accessible. the justification was there for change and they made it. WIndows 7 was well received as the best iteration so far. It's great, that OS. So where is the justification for the changes made to 8? did 7 turn windows into a big mess that needed fixing? no. remember, it was the best version so far in many people's eyes. so how do you make the assumption that the desktop will still be there? More likely, once there are a good few apps in that store, to deliver things for the "user" in a controlled and dictated approach, the desktop will go. I will spend time when not at work finding the information i read about the desktop being removed in future versions.

Nobody has answered my questions yet. Where is the justification for the metro interface in a corporate desktop/infrastructure environment?

[~Johnny]

who says? i've read from numerous sources that the desktop is not planned for future iterations.

Microsoft themselves. You'll not find a single official Microsoft posting downplaying the importance of the desktop going forward - and not even rumours from Foley or Thurrott (who are usually some of the few people who have somewhat accurate insights) have suggested the desktop is going anywhere.

Anyone who says otherwise is just wishful thinking at this stage.

[ZombieFly]

It will be a gradual process, I am sure. Paul Thurrott has talked about this matter on his blog / podcasts.

so the responses in this thread on the defence of windows 8 being an ill fit in enviroments it wasn't required in is....

It will be a gradual process, I am sure

..and you wonder why i'm coming across as hard line?! :)

Paul Thurrott? who? :p

[Subhadip]

so the responses in this thread on the defence of windows 8 being an ill fit in enviroments it wasn't required in is....

..and you wonder why i'm coming across as hard line?! :)

I posted about this a few pages back, allow me to quote myself:

This is pretty much how I feel. Metro has its place, Desktop has its place. No one denies - including Microsoft - that the Desktop can handle complex scenarios Metro simply cannot. Which is why Desktop is not just retained but significantly improved over Windows 7. Multi-monitor has advanced far enough to bypass the requirement for a third-party app, and so many more features. Of course, the Windows 8 Desktop significantly gains performance over Windows 7 as well. Overall, Microsoft could just have shipped Windows 8 Desktop without Metro whatsoever, and it would be a greater advancement over Windows 7 than Windows 7 was over Vista SP1.

I love Metro and Desktop does feel a bit clunky for the simple stuff. This is on mouse/keyboard and I am sure the experience is further enhanced with touch. But I simply cannot work without Desktop, that's where my livelihood is. I look forward to a day - and make no mistake, it will come - when WinRT is advanced enough to take over complex apps and relegate Desktop to a legacy interface, much like the command line. But today, Metro is clearly version 1.0 and simply cannot handle all situations.

The good news is that the situations it can, covers a vast majority of computing usage in 2012. Of course this is not relevant to us power users with traditional workstations, a niche base, but Microsoft's motivations are not uncalled for.

[ZombieFly]

Microsoft could just have shipped Windows 8 Desktop without Metro whatsoever, and it would be a greater advancement over Windows 7 than Windows 7 was over Vista SP1.

aha! yes. this is my bone of contention. This is the logic that should have been followed. had it have been, i'd have been here saying how great things were that windows now had "a tablet option". The decision not to do this is what i have a problem with, and i'd have expected others to have the same opinion if they did what I did for a daily job. This is what's riling me up, accepting things "because they've changed" with no benefit and sometimes a detrimental effect to working practice makes no sense to me, especially without giving a reason why these changes are better for a desktop/corporate user.

[Dot Matrix]

Shipping a desktop only Windows 8 would have increased costs, Quality assurance testing, yadi yada... And would have provided no real benefit to users other than to add confusion. And if Microsoft is looking to purge legacy code, would have done nothing but held them back from moving forward.

Essentially, it would have been a lead weight, Microsoft would have been eating the costs for.

[Subhadip]

aha! yes. this is my bone of contention. This is the logic that should have been followed. had it have been, i'd have been here saying how great things were that windows now had "a tablet option". The decision not to do this is what i have a problem with, and i'd have expected others to have the same opinion if they did what I did for a daily job. This is what's riling me up, accepting things "because they've changed" with no benefit and sometimes a detrimental effect to working practice makes no sense to me, especially without giving a reason why these changes are better for a desktop/corporate user.

The thing is though that the computing world is changing very fast. Even the most traditional of corporate desktop users want to try out touch devices and the like. Just a single model of iPad is outselling the largest PC maker in the world. But people aren't happy with iPad, it is just a casual add-on device. A vast majority of users are taking up the Ultrabook + Tablet model, which Windows 8 has the power to converge. There's a huge market here. Your logic is valid... for 2011, maybe 2012 and even 2013, but not for the future. Things have to change, and Windows 8 is the starting point.

David Pierce explains why Windows 8 has the power to change how people use computers.

PS / Edit - Yes, I know there are many power users, including myself, who require the Desktop, but personally, I feel the Start Screen is better than Start Menu in any case.

[ZombieFly]

Shipping a desktop only Windows 8 would have increased costs, Quality assurance testing, yadi yada... And would have provided no real benefit to users other than to add confusion. And if Microsoft is looking to purge legacy code, would have done nothing but held them back from moving forward.

agreed. so why not just release win8 as a tablet os? it could have been Windows Tablet OS, big launch promo and lots of nice devices in line with the mobile platform. great, just what was required. Why the insistence that every flavour of windows should adopt a new way of working which is so badly implemented by Microsoft themselves with their own default applications? surely you'd want to prove something first before sending ALL of your products down a route that's so insecure and unproven? think of the cost of coming back from that?

[Noir Angel]

Power users have this weird sense of entitlement, and I wish I knew where it came from. I see it everyday on here and at work. I also have q few friends who are so animate about desktop computing, that they'll yell at the kids they see with smartphones and iPads.

I also had a college professor who taught a Windows class who used to rant and rant all the time about the GUI, and how modern computing is plain ****.

I simply don't get it.

You mean people want things that they pay for to suit their needs? Yeah, how dare they.

[ZombieFly]

The thing is though that the computing world is changing very fast. Even the most traditional of corporate desktop users want to try out touch devices and the like. Just a single model of iPad is outselling the largest PC maker in the world. But people aren't happy with iPad, it is just a casual add-on device. A vast majority of users are taking up the Ultrabook + Tablet model, which Windows 8 has the power to converge. There's a huge market here. Your logic is valid... for 2011, maybe 2012 and even 2013, but not for the future. Things have to change, and Windows 8 is the starting point.

David Pierce explains why Windows 8 has the power to change how people use computers.

PS / Edit - Yes, I know there are many power users, including myself, who require the Desktop, but personally, I feel the Start Screen is better than Start Menu in any case.

I don't disagree. however, as for reasons previously explained, the move to push all products down this unproven and infantile route is plainly insane. Had they have done this as a tablet OS, it would have grown and at some point, if successful, would have made sense to merge back into the main version of windows, which is still based around a keyboard and mouse and NON touch screen.

[BajiRav]

aha! yes. this is my bone of contention. This is the logic that should have been followed. had it have been, i'd have been here saying how great things were that windows now had "a tablet option". The decision not to do this is what i have a problem with, and i'd have expected others to have the same opinion if they did what I did for a daily job. This is what's riling me up, accepting things "because they've changed" with no benefit and sometimes a detrimental effect to working practice makes no sense to me, especially without giving a reason why these changes are better for a desktop/corporate user.

If they had shipped Windows 8 with all improvements except Metro and related parts, most people here would have chastised them for charging $40 for a "service pack". Metro has its place in all situations including corporate scenarios. I don't get it why people think they are the sole authority in enterprise environments but one of the biggest enterprise vendors on the planet has no clue or insight onto how things work?

Yes, part reason of "forcing metro" is because Microsoft wants a chunk of the tablet market. Then the other part is also rising usage of iPads in enterprise setups. I work in a relatively small company (today's market cap is ~$1.5B, 4000+ employees worldwide, actually I am not sure about employee count) dealing solely in enterprise software and I see iPads day in and day out. All top level executives, customers who visit us - everyone carries one.

Thankfully for Microsoft, Android tablets have failed to gain any traction in my experience (work, customers etc.) and this is the right opportunity for Microsoft. If they didn't push the tablet UI through Windows, the ecosystem will be DOA or very difficult to prop up thanks to iPad's headstart.

[Red Panda]

So much debate for a toy, tablet OS merged with a perfectly fine desktop OS named Windows 7.

The problem with Windows 8 is that it brings nothing but some colorful bloat to the regular desktop "more-than-joe" user who is used to have 3-4 open windows, a torrent client in system tray and so on. For the "power-user", Metro is just unnecessary bloat which unfortunately, can't be disabled via a registry hack.

Sure, "Metro" may bring some value to some moms from US who spend the day reading NBC news and like playing some flashy arcade games, but that's it...

This is my honest opinion, feel free to thrash it, Win8 fanboys.

[BajiRav]

So much debate for a toy, tablet OS merged with a perfectly fine desktop OS named Windows 7.

The problem with Windows 8 is that it brings nothing but some colorful bloat to the regular desktop "more-than-joe" user who is used to have 3-4 open windows, a torrent client in system tray and so on. For the "power-user", Metro is just unnecessary bloat which unfortunately, can't be disabled via a registry hack.

Sure, "Metro" may bring some value to some moms from US who spend the day reading NBC news and like playing some flashy arcade games, but that's it...

This is my honest opinion, feel free to thrash it, Win8 fanboys.

Everyone who doesn't agree with your "modest" opinion is a fanboy, right?

[Guest LiquidCrystalMeth]

Anyone else become a little alarmed at the rise of the Windows fanboy....seems to have erupted around Windows 8, i certainly dont remember seeing as many Apple sheep like people before now.

But then im not surprised when those same people treating Windows 8 like the second coming would probably find another way to feel a false sense of superiority on here.

Probably the best and clearest sign of what im talking about is when someone starts a new thread when there are plenty of active ones on the same topic......

[Dot Matrix]

agreed. so why not just release win8 as a tablet os? it could have been Windows Tablet OS, big launch promo and lots of nice devices in line with the mobile platform. great, just what was required. Why the insistence that every flavour of windows should adopt a new way of working which is so badly implemented by Microsoft themselves with their own default applications? surely you'd want to prove something first before sending ALL of your products down a route that's so insecure and unproven? think of the cost of coming back from that?

They're unifying their platforms. It's not badly implemented when you look at the bigger picture. Windows 8 brings everything together in ways Windows 7 can't and never will. Also there is no coming back. Windows will never again have the Start Menu people are trying to cling to. If things don't work out, Microsoft will switch into a new direction.

[Shane Nokes]

I'm fine with not using the modern apps, but a ruddy great "start menu" is ridiculous. it is far less readable/usable, and harder to keep in order.

I've got about 80 applications on my PC right now, not including any games or anything in the accessories folder, and this is a relatively new install, so there could well be a few more added to that list in a month or two. These are put into folders like, Graphics, Audio, Video, Office, Security, Network, Utilities, Hardware, Comms, Modding. Some of those have sub folders.

It takes up a tiny amount of space in comparison, is far more readable because my eyes don't have to travel nearly as far, or get lost in a blur of scrolling. It's like a table of contents, a readable list. Can you imagine trying to read that list in a book, but some **** has made it take 6 pages?

There is just no ****ing way on earth I can get that to be anywhere near as clean and tidy looking with Start Screen, let alone as usable.

No, it's not ready for a proper desktop, not sure if it ever will be.

Start>Right Click>All Apps>Ctrl+Mouse Scroll Down

That will give you a smaller tidier view of everything. The All Apps view is already pretty good with that, but this puts it back into the normal folder structure you're pretty much used to seeing with a different look. Modern Apps are grouped similar to Windows Phone by letter, and Desktop Mode apps are in folders. It's pretty quick and easy to get to. :)

This OS has a learning curve, but is really slick once you get to know how everything works. ;)

Anyone else become a little alarmed at the rise of the Windows fanboy....seems to have erupted around Windows 8, i certainly dont remember seeing as many Apple sheep like people before now.

But then im not surprised when those same people treating Windows 8 like the second coming would probably find another way to feel a false sense of superiority on here.

Probably the best and clearest sign of what im talking about is when someone starts a new thread when there are plenty of active ones on the same topic......

Anyone else become a little alarmed at the rise of the Windows fanboy....seems to have erupted around Windows 8, i certainly dont remember seeing as many Apple sheep like people before now.

But then im not surprised when those same people treating Windows 8 like the second coming would probably find another way to feel a false sense of superiority on here.

Probably the best and clearest sign of what im talking about is when someone starts a new thread when there are plenty of active ones on the same topic......

You mean like the people who don't like Win8 and start topic after topic about how they don't like it? Both sides are doing it...don't just point the finger one way ;)

[Guest LiquidCrystalMeth]

You mean like the people who don't like Win8 and start topic after topic about how they don't like it? Both sides are doing it...don't just point the finger one way ;)

Not sure people who dont like it can be called fanboys.......

Fanboys are ultra positive with no good reason types who operate on blind faith, usually in direct opposition to the overwhelming general view.

Anyone who opposes their Apple fanboy like behaviour is generally more open minded, even if they are opposing said fanboy

Tthe fanboy is completely ignorant in his sheep like belief system. Plenty of threads here to demonstrate that.

Most opposing threads are just normal folk trying to have a voice over the bleating of the small flock

Fanboys should be neutered.

[ZombieFly]

They're unifying their platforms. It's not badly implemented when you look at the bigger picture. Windows 8 brings everything together in ways Windows 7 can't and never will. Also there is no coming back. Windows will never again have the Start Menu people are trying to cling to. If things don't work out, Microsoft will switch into a new direction.

how is releasing a badly implemented 2 faced UI after the gains of windows 7 not badly implemented? :s where is the other direction? it's taken them this long to make this switch, you really think they have a backup plan (for a desktop) other than to regress to what they had working before? Sure, windows 8 may fail, but i can guarantee that if it does, the only direction they'll go in will be to fall back on what they had before (as far as non-touch screens are concerned)

we should lock this thread now, unlock it in a year and then notify everyone in it to come back and see how the land lies ;)

[winlonghorn]

This whole rant is so misinformed. Ironically, power users will have the easiest time using Windows 8, with its arcane gestures and keyboard shortcuts that are required to get anything done. Normal users will just be confused and angry with Metro on desktop, the new Start Screen, the confusing jumble of settings split in 2 places etc.

You think normal people don't like to multitask? Every single one of them wants to browse, check email, watch photos/videos, listen to music? Maybe the Metro model of fullscreen apps will make it simpler, maybe people will like the side mode and the duality with normal desktop apps, and maybe they won't.

Last time I checked, Windows was a general purpose OS used by millions for critical jobs, by enterprises, developers etc, not just for these non power users you speak of. Microsoft is simply counting on the fact that making Windows 'cool and shiny' and dumbing it down will make it more attractive (the Apple strategy), and they won't lose sales because frankly there really is no choice.

It's an OS designed to look good in demos done on stage on a tablet, not to be productive or efficient for anyone.

Really? I think your theory may be dead in the water from the start. My parents use Windows 8 and love it. They are easily navigating it and getting things done. They were instructed approximately 2 times on how to use it and off they went. They are by no means "Power Users" either. ;)

[Shane Nokes]

Not sure people who dont like it can be called fanboys.......

Fanboys are ultra positive with no good reason types who operate on blind faith, usually in direct opposition to the overwhelming general view.

Anyone who opposes their Apple fanboy like behaviour is generally more open minded, even of they are opposing said fanboy, the fanboy is completely ignorant in his sheep like belief system

Fanboys should be neutered.

So you're saying that those behaviors can only be exhibited by fans of a product and not the detractors of said product? Man that's the least logical position I've seen in a while...

I've seen the same exact behavior by the negative nellies, except in the reverse. Blind bashing in direct opposition to those who hold the positive view...

To say that this isn't the case is well...I'm just flabbergasted.

[BajiRav]

So you're saying that those behaviors can only be exhibited by fans of a product and not the detractors of said product? Man that's the least logical position I've seen in a while...

I've seen the same exact behavior by the negative nellies, except in the reverse. Blind bashing in direct opposition to those who hold the positive view...

To say that this isn't the case is well...I'm just flabbergasted.

Let's just call them start-menu fanboys or boot2desktop fanboys etc. for simplicity's sake. :laugh:

[winlonghorn]

I had a whole response I was typing for this and for some reason it didn't post properly.

I'll shorten it down.

I use Win8 RP and find it just as efficient as Win7. I do Desktop tasks & Modern tasks. If I need to multitask within the Modern UI I just go to the top left and swap tasks. If I need to search something in Modern IE I just move to the right and use the search charm, or right click and use the address bar.

I can have notifications pop up that tell me when I have new mail, new messages, or upcoming calendar events. I can do all this while still making more efficient use of my screen. I can have 2 apps running on a single screen and even have desktop apps open on a second screen if need be. I can interact easily with multiple apps and get everything that I need done, and who wouldn't qualify me as a power user?

Exactly! Also, I know people like to have 16 different programs running at the same time, but what benefit is that really? Do they think that they have 30 hands and 90 eyeballs and can work in every program at one time? lol. I just thought I would bring that interesting thought to light! lol :D

[Guest LiquidCrystalMeth]

Really? I think your theory may be dead in the water from the start. My parents use Windows 8 and love it. They are easily navigating it and getting things done. They were instructed approximately 2 times on how to use it and off they went. They are by no means "Power Users" either. ;)

Anyone else noticed the amount of peoples parents and grandparents using and loving Windows 8 lately?

Im going to have to email Steve Ballmer know of this extraordinary demographic spike.

I know my parents and grandparents hang out on the web looking for developer previews and release candidates from Microsoft, whenever i go over theyre madly downloading and burning ISO's instead of having tea and biscuits...

Another tale from the "Windows 8 fanboy: it never really happened files"

[jagowar]

Didn't see this posted here but there was a good article writted over at the verge by david pierce that summarizes my opinion about the rtm version better than I could say it.... its all about melding the old with the new.

http://www.theverge....-next-windows-8

Anyone else noticed the amount of peoples parents and grandparents using and loving Windows 8 lately?

My parents are using it.... my dad asked me to put it on his computer because he messed it up and couldn't find his product key and knew win8 was "free" right now. That said I did have to help them get their ms accounts setup/configured and give them a 10 min tutorial about the new interface but they both now prefer metro to their old win7 desktop. Then I explained that this account will work on any win8 pc they get in the future and they loved that aspect of it (they are actually really interested in getting a surface now like me just from using it for the past few weeks and knowing their settings will transfer over).