Windows 8 - Unintuitivity at its best

[Kinda Farty]

All of the complaints in this post seem to be in regard to Metro apps. Don't like Metro aps? Simply don't use them. What the problem? I don't get it.

[.Neo]

All of the complaints in this post seem to be in regard to Metro apps. Don't like Metro aps? Simply don't use them. What the problem? I don't get it.

As we all know Windows 8 remains such an exiting release if you think away all the Metro stuff.

[Wyn6]

Nah they made it a little better than a phone. You can have two apps split screen (one 30% one 70%).

So I would assume that the Charms->Devices->Canon MP 460 would print the one that's the biggest (70%), but what if you're actively interacting with the small one (the 30% window) and you want to print it? You would have to unintuitively expand the window first and click print.

Or it works by which one you interacted with last... so then what if you're looking at the 70% window and want to print what's in there, even though you last interacted with the 30% window? Then it would print the 30% one which isn't what you want.

Either way, it's a crappy experience. I would test it and discover which method it uses, but my laptop apparently doesn't have a good enough resolution to support split screen.

Here's the thing. Andrew finds Windows 8 unintuitive. Now, those of us who find it as intuitive as anything else (Windows 7, Android, ios, Windows Phone) can ask why. We can try and offer alternatives, assistance and what not to aid him in better navigating the OS. But, the bottom line is HE finds it unintuitive. This is HIS perception and we can't really rebut that per se.

There's no point continuing to argue about how he perceives something because we don't see through his eyes. To that end, we can only try and understand. Now, I'd argue he hasn't been as clear about it being HIS perception and presumes to speak for the average user. However, reading between the lines we can clearly see that this is how HE feels.

Let it be done, folks. Most of us have said our peace. This thread wasn't started by him as an "I hate Windows 8" thread. He was simply musing on what he felt to be an unintuitive operating system in his eyes. So, how it turned into another battle between the For and Against camps, I have no idea.

This is what he believes as do many others. And, just as many believe the opposite. I'm not sure if he is trying to convince everyone it's unintuitive with his argument or if he's just restating it. Likewise, if you're trying to convince him and others it is intuitive, that's futile. We all see the new OS differently some positively and some negatively. Will that change over time, in either direction? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[contextfree]

From my tests I conclude: it always applies to the "bigger" app. No matter which one you're currently interacting...

That's correct. There is always only one main app on screen at a given time, which is always the one that takes up most of the screen - there is not really a "last interacted with" concept in the system. This BTW is also one of the reasons there's not yet a 50/50 split option - it wouldn't work well with the charms system as it currently stands, as it wouldn't be clear which app is the "main" one at any given time (which also means it wouldn't be clear where a new app should go when you start one from the Start screen or from the back stack / switcher).

[contextfree]

This is what HCI people call 'knowledge in the world'. Metro instead relies on you to already have the knowledge in your head.

In a Desktop app, the user will either figure out on her own that printing could be under 'File' (since the File is what the user intends to print), or she can just go from item to item and look for 'Print'. In Metro she has to know (and remember) that you can bring up an app bar, know (and remember) that there is a charms bar, and know (and remember) that the printing options could be located in the charms bar to even think of activating it.

I've read The Design of Everyday Things too and am familiar with that concept, but OTOH there is still going to be a certain amount you have to learn and know to use any system. On desktop for example you have to know to double-click on icons, know to right-click on things (something that was at one point believed to be too advanced to expect average users to know, but now almost everyone knows it), know about drag and drop. Yes you can scan menu bares to find things, but you still have to know about the concept of menu bars to begin with (not immediately obvious that those words are where to find things), you have to know that you can drag the title bar around to move windows for example (not obvious that's how to do it or even that the title bar is clickable at all), etc. On iOS, even leaving out the advanced shortcut gestures, you have to know to press-and-hold on the start screen to rearrange (no indication, though iirc it pops up a balloon telling you can do it on first use - but you have to remember it subsequently), know that you can swipe over to more pages of apps (no indication), know that you can swipe to the left to search (no indication), know about pinch-to-zoom and double-tap on web pages, etc. The point is that while expecting the user to learn and remember everything to do with your system doesn't scale, having a visual reminder of each individual thing to do on screen at all times doesn't scale either as an interface that reminds the user of everything is an interface that reminds the user of nothing. The question is, is the amount of stuff that needs to be learned manageably small and finite, is it memorable (e.g. having a distinctive physical motion associated it tends to build muscle memory), consistent, does the system encourage you to learn it.

[andrewbares]

Let it be done, folks. Most of us have said our peace. This thread wasn't started by him as an "I hate Windows 8" thread. He was simply musing on what he felt to be an unintuitive operating system in his eyes. So, how it turned into another battle between the For and Against camps, I have no idea.

This is what he believes as do many others. And, just as many believe the opposite. I'm not sure if he is trying to convince everyone it's unintuitive with his argument or if he's just restating it. Likewise, if you're trying to convince him and others it is intuitive, that's futile. We all see the new OS differently some positively and some negatively. Will that change over time, in either direction? I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Good words. I made this hoping that someone at Microsoft would see it and realize that "Hey, maybe we made a mistake..."

I've needed consumer complaints to realize I made something worse in my own apps I developed, and I'm sure Microsoft needs that too. I once took Microsoft's approach for my homework planner app, thinking "Hey, people don't add classes very often... I could just hide that in the menu instead of using an always-visible contextual "+" button on the panorama. The "+" button will instead always add a homework, since 99% of the time that's what users are doing!"

But nope, that was a terrible idea. Got tons of complaints. Switched to the contextual "+" button and haven't heard a single complaint. Looking back, I agree that my idea was a dumb idea. I have a feeling that some of these changes in Windows 8 are identical to what I went through there.

And the number of people that have complaints about Windows 8 seems to be pretty large. What really gets me is that my parents don't even like it, and they're the ones it's really made for! Microsoft tried to make an iOS-like operating system, where you "can't break" anything and it's simple... well even my parents find it complicated.

Now, I think Windows Phone 7 is the most intuitive mobile operating system, so I know Microsoft can make things intuitive, I just feel like this is NOT intuitive. I believe WP7 is even more intuitive than iOS in a few areas! Android comes in last, but 4.0 is honestly quite good and they've really stepped it up.

[contextfree]

Now, I think Windows Phone 7 is the most intuitive mobile operating system, so I know Microsoft can make things intuitive, I just feel like this is NOT intuitive. I believe WP7 is even more intuitive than iOS in a few areas! Android comes in last, but 4.0 is honestly quite good and they've really stepped it up.

I think the issue is that "intuitive" when applied to user interfaces essentially means "what I'm used to". (http://asktog.com/papers/raskinintuit.html) WP7 for example, while it introduced a new visual style, actually is more or less the same as iOS in terms of how you interact with it. It doesn't really introduce any new gestures, etc. Windows 8 on the other hand is trying to introduce a new interaction model, and once you've made that decision you're kind of accepting that you'll be "less intuitive" in some respects. This doesn't mean there can't be real problems or better or worse ways to design things, but just that if your goal is to create something new it's hard to do that and make "intuitiveness" your primary guiding principle.

[PGHammer]

I think the issue is that "intuitive" when applied to user interfaces essentially means "what I'm used to". (http://asktog.com/pa...skinintuit.html) WP7 for example, while it introduced a new visual style, actually is more or less the same as iOS in terms of how you interact with it. It doesn't really introduce any new gestures, etc. Windows 8 on the other hand is trying to introduce a new interaction model, and once you've made that decision you're kind of accepting that you'll be "less intuitive" in some respects. This doesn't mean there can't be real problems or better or worse ways to design things, but just that if your goal is to create something new it's hard to do that and make "intuitiveness" your primary guiding principle.

Exactly.

Intuition (in anything) invariably comes down to a set of *learned responses*. Sociopathy in humans is due to their not learning those responses (for whatever reason). Change - by nature - is anything BUT intuitive, as it attacks those learned responses; contrariwise, intuition (also by design) seeks to allow as little change (preferably no change at all) so the learned responses can be kept.

However, I have noticed a trend in human societies - whenever there is a major upheaval (and the current economic situation globally is exactly that), there is a tendency to seek to hold on to those very same *learned responses* - the familiar, in other words. My opinion is that a large part of the criticism and angst over Windows 8 is indeed part of that.

Basically, the familiar (and comfortable) Windows 7 UI is the IT equivalent of a security blanket.

[contextfree]

Intuition (in anything) invariably comes down to a set of *learned responses*. Sociopathy in humans is due to their not learning those responses (for whatever reason). Change - by nature - is anything BUT intuitive, as it attacks those learned responses; contrariwise, intuition (also by design) seeks to allow as little change (preferably no change at all) so the learned responses can be kept.

Well I think it's not irrational to be skeptical of change, as even change for the better can require a period of adjustment before you become as proficient with the new system, plus a system is often at its worst when it's new and hasn't been refined yet, plus there's no guarantee any given change is going to "stick" long enough to be worth adjusting to. For instance, I think it's for the better they overhauled the UI with Office 2007, but if they'd done another complete overhaul in 2010, then another one in 2013 (rather than the smaller changes they actually made), that would've been stupid as people would have spent more time adjusting to the changes than actually benefiting from the changes.

[Dot Matrix]

Windows 7 UI is the IT equivalent of a security blanket.

^ This. There will come a time where that security blanket has to be thrown away.

[guru]

I think the issue is that "intuitive" when applied to user interfaces essentially means "what I'm used to". (http://asktog.com/pa...skinintuit.html) WP7 for example, while it introduced a new visual style, actually is more or less the same as iOS in terms of how you interact with it. It doesn't really introduce any new gestures, etc. Windows 8 on the other hand is trying to introduce a new interaction model, and once you've made that decision you're kind of accepting that you'll be "less intuitive" in some respects. This doesn't mean there can't be real problems or better or worse ways to design things, but just that if your goal is to create something new it's hard to do that and make "intuitiveness" your primary guiding principle.

no. Intuitive in UX is about how natural and simple is to learn and perform the necessary action. example, pinch to zoom,slider buttons... etc are intuitive gestures.the learning curve for near non existent for intuitive interfaces.

the problem with windows 8 is there are way too many new gestures that are not intuitive on touchscreens.

on a non touch desktop/ laptop. its a disaster.

[Arceles]

^ This. There will come a time where that security blanket has to be thrown away.

Alright guy, tell me your curriculum please, just for further reference.

[Active.]

I've read The Design of Everyday Things too and am familiar with that concept, but OTOH there is still going to be a certain amount you have to learn and know to use any system. On desktop for example you have to know to double-click on icons, know to right-click on things (something that was at one point believed to be too advanced to expect average users to know, but now almost everyone knows it), know about drag and drop. Yes you can scan menu bares to find things, but you still have to know about the concept of menu bars to begin with (not immediately obvious that those words are where to find things), you have to know that you can drag the title bar around to move windows for example (not obvious that's how to do it or even that the title bar is clickable at all), etc. On iOS, even leaving out the advanced shortcut gestures, you have to know to press-and-hold on the start screen to rearrange (no indication, though iirc it pops up a balloon telling you can do it on first use - but you have to remember it subsequently), know that you can swipe over to more pages of apps (no indication), know that you can swipe to the left to search (no indication), know about pinch-to-zoom and double-tap on web pages, etc. The point is that while expecting the user to learn and remember everything to do with your system doesn't scale, having a visual reminder of each individual thing to do on screen at all times doesn't scale either as an interface that reminds the user of everything is an interface that reminds the user of nothing. The question is, is the amount of stuff that needs to be learned manageably small and finite, is it memorable (e.g. having a distinctive physical motion associated it tends to build muscle memory), consistent, does the system encourage you to learn it.

It's definitely true that you can't rely on the interface to provide all the visual cues needed to use it (at least if it will likely be used more than once in a while) . An interface containg every visual clue needed for its successful operation would be great for a beginner user but inefficient for someone who's used the system repeatedly and knows his way around it. And, as you say, certain complex interfaces wouldn't even be possible to design in such a way. Which is an argument by the way for either some kind of "learner mode" in an app or to be able to either switch the interface from one suited for beginners to one more suited for experienced users. Take the 'Simple Finder' in OS X as an example, which can be activated for beginner users as an alternative to the regular Finder and neither allows for right-clicking nor supports double-clicking, since indeed both of these are (or have been, in the past) non-obvious to a certain class of users. You can also often find a way to suit both kinds of users at the same time by supporting different interaction methods, e.g. by providing visual cues for mousing usage and allowing basic commands to be discovered that way, by offering context menus, yet not relying on them, by offering consistent and complete optional keyboard shortcut support for advanced users with perhaps an option to deactivate some of the visual cues etc.

Same situation really for devices like the iPad where the (highly visible) 'home' button is needed and can be used by beginner users, while advanced users can switch to the (learned) behavior of double-pressing the button to switch between apps or even achieve the same by using (learned) advanced gestures which are also available for returning to the home screen. As far as I can tell, the same applies to WinRT devices as far as switching apps is concerned.

Of course, there's a difference between limiting the amount of visual cues compared to flat out removing any and all visual cues for operation. Curiously, Microsoft is operating at two extremes here, on the one hand with the ribbon, which puts pretty much every available command in front of users, and on the other hand with the Metro UI, which often doesn't show a single one. The right compromise between the two, which you mentioned, is exactly what Microsoft in my opinion has failed to achieve.

Note that while you stated that the iPad offered no visual cues for either moving between app pages or moving to the search page, that is not true. There do exist visual indications providing certain subtle clues, such as the dots on the bottom of the page, which, by the way, can be tapped instead of performing a gesture (admittedly difficult touch targets though).

The basic concept of being able to slide interface elements is also introduced in clear words on the lock screen (note the difference when you compare this to the Windows 8 lock screen).

It is also likely that a beginner user might even perform the sliding gesture by accident on the home screen, thereby becoming aware of the possibility for that action, although that probably can't be relied upon and might even scare the user into thinking she's done something wrong. Additionally (if I remember correctly), once you install an app that first introduces a second page (only one page exists in the beginning), the screen visually slides to the left, hinting at the fact that you might be able to slide horizontally on the screen to move between pages. This is also exactly the gesture you would perform to move a physical object such as a piece of paper on your desk (if you don't want to pick it up). Not exactly unnatural therefore. Which is really the best you can hope for, when the device reacts to your actions almost in the way things from the natural world do. This might be something that WinRT does better though, since the tiles that are cut off provide an indication that there is further content you can move to, and there is no arbitrary concept of 'pages' either but you can move the plane freely around.

Simple gestures such as zooming or tapping or moving objects around on the screen seem natural enough that the user would likely find out about them by themselves, as evidenced by young children, toddlers or even cats using iPads and such. More advanced gestures should arguably not be relied on for basic operations and, as far as I can see, are optional on such devices as the iPad.

I'd agree that you might not figure out how to rearrange home screen icons on an iPad without being told about the press-and-hold action beforehand. And indeed, I bet, there exist iPad users that haven't ever rearranged their icons, only found out about it by accident, or by being told about it or by watching someone else. Really though, rearranging the home screen icons becomes important mainly when the users is already at sort of an advanced stage where the number of icons starts to make rearrangement and organization necessary. So it is not strictly something that the beginner user has to have figured out before being able to use the device. Indeed the device would be just as usable to beginner users if it allowed for no rearranging of the icons So it is probably justifiable to have a slight learning curve to that action. Still, this might be another thing WinRT does better.

I'll admit that there's an argument to be made that at some point certain touch gestures might have become so commonplace that knowledge about them could be relied on in the same way that most interfaces nowadays rely on the user knowing about double-clicking (or indeed concepts such as titlebars) That may become appropriate at some point for gestures where you slide the finger in from the edges and, who knows, maybe Microsoft is leading the way on that, we'll see. Certainly the mouse gestures Microsoft is requiring users to adapt to though can't be expected by users to already be familiar with and will require quite some effort for users to adapt to.

[Dot Matrix]

Alright guy, tell me your curriculum please, just for further reference.

It doesn't take a scientist to figure out that computing will be moving forward in technological advancements. Sorry, but the mouse is not an end all.

[+LogicalApex MVC]

The old Start Menu was removed for other reasons. Everything was going against it, no matter how much people loved it.

You obviously missed the point...

[Rickkins]

Basically, the familiar (and comfortable) Windows 7 UI is the IT equivalent of a security blanket.

^ This. There will come a time where that security blanket has to be thrown away.

You two crack me up. Maybe you should form a comedy team and take your act on the road.

The desktop is not going anywhere, not for decades.(the kiddie apps on metro notwithstanding)

You obviously missed the point...

That would be Dot's specialty.... :rolleyes:

[PGHammer]

You two crack me up. Maybe you should form a comedy team and take your act on the road.

The desktop is not going anywhere, not for decades.(the kiddie apps on metro notwithstanding)

That would be Dot's specialty.... :rolleyes:

Please! I never said that the desktop was going anywhere - in fact. my comment wasn't referring to the desktop at all.

I was referring *specifically* to the Start menu - not the desktop.

I have, in fact, been pointing out - time and again - that the desktop, and desktop applications, are still alive and well in Windows 8.

However, you got awfully darned defensive - do you really think that the desktop DEPENDS on the Start menu?

This isn't Coca-Cola Classic vs. New Coke; this is more Coca-Cola Classic vs. Coke Zero.

That seems to be where the *disconnect* has come about.

While a lot of USERS - for whatever reason - are VERY dependent on said Start menu, desktop applications, or even the desktop itself, do not.

In fact, here's what I have been pointing out; desktop applications function *completely unchanged* despite the Start menu being gone.

The desktop itself is otherwise unchanged - not a thing about it (other than the Start menu being gone) is even remotely different.

That is why I called it a user dependency - NOT a true dependency in any other way.

I brought over my entire set of desktop applications from Windows 7; how I use them hasn't changed any.

If the desktop's functionality had changed that radically by the Start menu being gone, I couldn't do that.

I can still, in fact, use Control+P to print from desktop applications (such as desktop IE10, or even Waterfox 15 - my two desktop web browsers of choice).

I have been referring (since the Consumer Preview of Windows 8) to the Start menu *itself* being a crutch in XP/Vista/7 - not the desktop.

I have fired one - ONE - Win32 applet - AWS WeatherBug. (And that was due to issues with the application itself - it had nothing to do with Windows 8, or compatibility thereof.)

So, tell me - why is the Start menu so critical for you when desktop applications (in fact, rest of the desktop) could care less?.

[bj55555]

Nah they made it a little better than a phone. You can have two apps split screen (one 30% one 70%).

So I would assume that the Charms->Devices->Canon MP 460 would print the one that's the biggest (70%)...

And that is the case. Your intuition told you so, and you were correct. So what are you bitching about now? Intuition should tell you that you don't print something that you intentionally size to show as little information as possible, so whether or not you last interacted with the "30%" section of the screen is really irrelevant when it comes to printing.

BTW, you're not very good with percentages. It's actually closer to 20%, and it's probably even less than that. Why in the hell would you print something that small? It's like trying to print from a minimized window.

[Calum Veteran]

I told you the very first time Windows Phone 7.5's behavior is to display the clock at all times. Something you kept disputing. It was pretty much your attitude that annoyed me, hence the reason I flat out told you you're wrong.

As far as I can tell, I only disputed it once. Further, I wasn't in any way rude. So I don't understand what you mean by my attitude. I always admit when I'm wrong, if someone proves me wrong, and I invite people to politely prove me wrong if I ever am. Your post didn't seem very polite, to me, but then it is hard to understand tone through written communication.

[Calum Veteran]

The whole point is that apps that typically print things should have a print button easily accessible. When viewing PDF's, a decently common task is printing.

Apps that don't print wouldn't have a printer button in the bottom application bar, and it wouldn't be "clogging" up your UI. Best of both worlds. That's how programs have always worked.

And yes, File-Print was CONSISTENT. I don't see how that was not consistent... then for apps that typically print, they had a quick-access button for getting to Print. That's extremely consistent.

File > Print wasn't consistent because it wasn't like that in every app. Microsoft Office, for example, from 2007 onward, didn't include that. Further, a "quick-access" button was probably somewhat consistent, but it wasn't in the same place on the same kind of toolbar in every app. It was often on a toolbar at the top, but it was between different buttons and in a slightly different place, in different apps. You may think that doesn't matter, and it probably doesn't, but my point is, it is now under the Devices Charm, in the exact same place, no matter which app one is in.

I do understand your preference regarding wanting that button available in such apps, with one-click accessibility. But I just don't agree with it. I feel that the Print option being under the Devices Charm is much better, and I reckon I'd feel that way even if I printed often. So this does seem to be a case where we'll have to agree to disagree, but I do appreciate you explaining and informing why you feel this way.

Yeah that's a case of where apps developed in one way can give someone the impression that the whole operating system is like that. Just like buggy and slow apps (Facebook) can give people the impression that Windows Phone doesn't properly support push notifications and is slow. It's not your fault you thought that WP7 hid the clock by default, that's simply all you've seen :)

Thank you for the explanation and thank you for understanding :) I try not to be wrong, but I do invite anyone to politely point out that I'm wrong, whenever I am.

[Rickkins]

So, tell me - why is the Start menu so critical for you when desktop applications (in fact, rest of the desktop) could care less?.

Habit...??

Lack of something better...??

Something...??

Or it may come down to my utter disdain for "change for change sake".

On the other hand, I got mine working exactly the way I like, and that's all that really matters to me. Most of my posting in these threads, at this point, is merely to provide counterbalance to the "pro metro at any cost" cabal..... and most should be taken with a grain of salt.

[Calum Veteran]

http://www.neowin.ne...#entry595136679

I was specifically talking about the absence of personal attacks in this thread, but thank you for informing me of that post; I have now dealt with it. The best way for that type of post to be spotted quickly is to report it using the Report button. Thank you :)

[.Neo]

As far as I can tell, I only disputed it once. Further, I wasn't in any way rude. So I don't understand what you mean by my attitude. I always admit when I'm wrong, if someone proves me wrong, and I invite people to politely prove me wrong if I ever am. Your post didn't seem very polite, to me, but then it is hard to understand tone through written communication.

There was no specific tone. I merely pointed out you were wrong. Something that had to be done a total of three times, by two different people. From my perspective it seemed like you were being very sensitive about that fact, had a hard time accepting it or for whatever reason simply refused to accept it until there was no way around it anymore. Anyway, let's just leave it at miscommunication like you said.

[Calum Veteran]

There was no specific tone. I merely pointed out you were wrong. Something that had to be done a total of three times, by two different people. From my perspective it seemed like you were being very sensitive about that fact, had a hard time accepting it or for whatever reason simply refused to accept it until there was no way around it anymore. Anyway, let's just leave it at miscommunication like you said.

You're the only person who told me I was wrong before I accepted that I was wrong. I wasn't having a hard time accepting it at all. I didn't accept it until someone explained what was happening, merely because I was seeing different behaviour and I didn't know the reason for that. I think it would have been silly for me to accept someone stating that the clock is always on show, when it was hidden in every app I checked and I didn't know that developers must specifically hide the clock for that behaviour to be seen. But I should have looked into why I was seeing different behaviour to someone else, instead of erroneously stating that they were wrong.

I am sorry if my posts gave you the wrong impression, and I am sorry for the miscommunication.

[.Neo]

I am sorry if my posts gave you the wrong impression, and I am sorry for the miscommunication.

This time around I forgive you, but be sure not to let it happen again. Next time I won't be so lenient.

*dramatic music, thunder flashes, rain, barking dogs*