Windows 8 - Unintuitivity at its best

By andrewbares
in Microsoft (Windows)

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Grand Master

Arceles

Posted
Posted

I'm gonna replace the phrase "You're not making any sense at all..." for "You're actually making windows 8 to look good" it has exactly the same meaning nowadays and may actually make feel better all the "pro metro only" fans, hence, less discussions.

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code65536

Posted
Posted

However, you seem to be thinking that touch is going to go away - or SHOULD go away.

What part of my post's concession that touch has its niche and application did you not understand?

Yes, touch is not going away. But it does have its place and is not a universal input method whose accommodation should come at the cost of other input methods.

  • Roxkis and Tarvis123
  • Like 2
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code65536

Posted
Posted

Only if you keep the default file viewers. You can change them to Win32-based viewing applications if the Modern UI equivalents don't suit you.

And what makes you think we don't already do that?

Issue #1 is, yes, we power users can and will change the file association the first time the Metro picture user annoys us by showing its head. But what about everyone else?

Issue #2 is, there is something wrong about an OS where, in order for things to work right, we need to spend time changing various settings to "fix" the OS by bypassing Sinofsky's new pet UI.

Unintuitive: Launch Metro photo viewer by default.

Intuitive: Launch windowed photo viewer if you open a photo from FIle Explorer or open a photo attachment from a desktop mail client, but launch the Metro photo viewer if you open a photo from a Metro mail client or other Metro app.

Unintuitive: Put Metro front-and-center when you are using a keyboard-and-mouse desktop or laptop (Metro networking UI, default Metro file associations, etc.)

Intuitive: Put Metro front-and-center by default if Windows detects that the system is a primarily touch-based system, and get Metro out of our faces by default if it detects that the system is not touchy-feely.

&c.

  • andrewbares
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Grand Master

Active.

Posted
Posted

However, you practically HAVE to be a power user to navigate around pre-8 Windows with a keyboard - the mouse bias, due pretty much entirely to the Start menu, is that bad.

You really expect anyone but power users to even want to navigate around the system with the keyboard (instead of a mouse or touch)? Support for keyboard navigation and consistent shortcuts are a thing of beauty, but truly a 'power user' feature. Which is why it is backwards to suggest to beginner users struggling to use the Metro UI with a mouse to resort to keyboard shortcuts instead.

  • andrewbares and code65536
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Ottawa Gamerz

Posted
Posted

well if everyone whos complaining about 8 would wait i bet a hacker will fix everything u hate about windows than noobs have the desktop power users have it 2 and us the comon user on this board will never have to hear anything again i would love to come here and not have to read about people bitching on a copy of windows leaked on the net it would be nice

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

You guys are putting words in my mouth for reals. Touch is just one of many input methods PCs use today, and is becoming rather prevalent. Not to mention, the role of the PC has expanded since the Windows 95 UI was designed,and no longer makes sense for a wide range of devices, so why would Microsoft continue to such a limiting UI? They'd be shooting themselves in the foot, if they didn't change the UI to meet the demands of these new technologies.

Grand Master

Detection

Posted
Posted

well if everyone whos complaining about 8 would wait i bet a hacker will fix everything u hate about windows than noobs have the desktop power users have it 2 and us the comon user on this board will never have to hear anything again i would love to come here and not have to read about people bitching on a copy of windows leaked on the net it would be nice

You know Windows 8 RTM has been officially released for evaluation right

Grand Master

Arceles

Posted
Posted

well if everyone whos complaining about 8 would wait i bet a hacker will fix everything u hate about windows than noobs have the desktop power users have it 2 and us the comon user on this board will never have to hear anything again i would love to come here and not have to read about people bitching on a copy of windows leaked on the net it would be nice

First of all, you can actually use Win8 without activation no problem (customization options are lost, but they are minimal) you have of course the watermark of "Activate windows now" and even so, there are ways to remove it from it.

Second of all, there is an Enterprise evaluation version, the one that I use right now, that allows you to test as long as 3 months plus 1 rearm, good enough time for me.

You should either stop reading this forums or whatever, but most importantly should stop attacking others, your behavior is quite childish.

Enthusiast

code65536

Posted
Posted

First of all, you can actually use Win8 without activation no problem (customization options are lost, but they are minimal) you have of course the watermark of "Activate windows now" and even so, there are ways to remove it from it.

Second of all, there is an Enterprise evaluation version, the one that I use right now, that allows you to test as long as 3 months plus 1 rearm, good enough time for me.

Also, some of us are developers who have MSDN accounts. ;)
Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

You really expect anyone but power users to even want to navigate around the system with the keyboard (instead of a mouse or touch)? Support for keyboard navigation and consistent shortcuts are a thing of beauty, but truly a 'power user' feature. Which is why it is backwards to suggest to beginner users struggling to use the Metro UI with a mouse to resort to keyboard shortcuts instead.

And I pointed out a position where a non-power-user would very much have to (hardware issues) - why make it impossible?

Grand Master

Active.

Posted
Posted

And I pointed out a position where a non-power-user would very much have to (hardware issues) - why make it impossible?

You're right. Nothing wrong with implementing good keyboard navigation support. What was so hard about using the Start menu with a keyboard though? And please, if you don't mind, be specific - don't just tell me that it was "mouse-biased".

Enthusiast

code65536

Posted
Posted

And I pointed out a position where a non-power-user would very much have to (hardware issues) - why make it impossible?

Impossible? If it was, they couldn't sell it. Americans with Disabilities Act and all that jazz. Want to make keyboard navigation easy? Simple, check the option to show access keys and that dotted selection border. You know, the way things used to be in the 90's. I always have that option enabled, and find getting around using the keyboard on W7 is just fine. And depending on what I'm doing, it's even more efficient than mouse.

In any case, how exactly is the Start Screen more keyboard accessible than the Start Menu? Arrow keys work as expected in both. Tab to jump between sections work as expected in both. The context menu key to bring up context menu options work as expected in both...

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

Your problem is that you seem to envision a world with just touch.

Not just touch only. We live in a world where the mouse isn't the only game in town anymore. There are plenty of other input devices that scream for attention, but get none from the desktop paradigm. Why continue to ignore them, especially when they are becoming more prevalent?

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

u want a touch 8 tab go buy 1 no ones going to buy a touch add on for pc i own a pad iphone until microsoft get there head out there asses ill stick with pc version

Not sure what you're saying here, but if you're asking if I plan to buy a touch monitor, then the answer is yes, I do.

Grand Master

PGHammer

Posted
Posted

You're right. Nothing wrong with implementing good keyboard navigation support. What was so hard about using the Start menu with a keyboard though? And please, if you don't mind, be specific - don't just tell me that it was "mouse-biased".

Starting with Windows XP, Windows would complain (rather forcefully) if mouse/pointing-device support was missing. By inference, it means that such support is, in fact, a requirement. (And according to you, that would indeed be an assumption a non-power-user would make.)

That inference isn't there with Windows 8.

As I said, my issue isn't with touch support (despite my personally not having any); my issue is that the Start menu invited over-reliance on pointing devices in general, and mice in particular.

And such support (despite ADA) is an option - not the default. Even if pointing-device support isn't detected, the ADA support does not auto-activate. Further, how well does it work? (Such support has been in Windows since 3.x; yes, it's THAT old.)

Enthusiast

Ottawa Gamerz

Posted
Posted

Starting with Windows XP, Windows would complain (rather forcefully) if mouse/pointing-device support was missing. By inference, it means that such support is, in fact, a requirement. (And according to you, that would indeed be an assumption a non-power-user would make.)

That inference isn't there with Windows 8.

As I said, my issue isn't with touch support (despite my personally not having any); my issue is that the Start menu invited over-reliance on pointing devices in general, and mice in particular.

And such support (despite ADA) is an option - not the default. Even if pointing-device support isn't detected, the ADA support does not auto-activate. Further, how well does it work? (Such support has been in Windows since 3.x; yes, it's THAT old.)

man if your pc isnt a paper weight usb dectects all if ur running old purple green go buy a pair 10 bucks there cheap

and the start menu issuse u got u cant press the windows key down run from there u want the easyest option for u ya dont learn a new command thats faster and easier .. but if u reall need one its called https://www.neowin.net/news/new-start8-beta-for-windows-8-released

thanks now love 8 or downgrade !! ur fixed

Enthusiast

code65536

Posted
Posted
There are plenty of other input devices that scream for attention
And they get their attention. Tablets. Phones. Et al. Hell, I have a touchscreen smartphone.
but get none from the desktop paradigm.

For good reason. E.g., they are unsuitable for a desktop paradigm?

Why continue to ignore them
Nobody advocates outright ignoring them, per se. What we take issue to is that a touch-biased interface that is utterly inferior and unsuitable for desktop usage is being forcibly shoved in people's faces.

As I've argued in other threads, Metro abandons the most important hallmark of the desktop GUI paradigm: multitasking. Full-screen (side-by-side is a pathetic and useless hack), inefficient use of space if you have large high-res monitors, very poor task switching, very poor or nonexistent sharing/transfer of data between programs, etc. Add to that other touch-centric features like oversized UI elements for the imprecision of touch and things like the Charms Bar that is less intuitive with a mouse.

Metro may be fine if you have a phone, but it's entirely inappropriate for the desktop. So why is it being shoved into our faces? Why can't we boot straight to the desktop? Why can't we get a Start Menu? Why is it that, by default, if I open a video on the desktop, I get dumped in that pathetic feature-stripped excuse of a media player?

You know what would make me happy? If, by default, users of desktops and laptops boot straight to the desktop and if we had a Start Menu, and if files opened from desktop programs will open in other desktop applications. And if, by default, tablet users boot into Metro, and got the Start Screen, and files launched by Metro applications opened in a Metro app by default. Then I'd call Windows 8 the greatest Windows ever. And, you know, that's what I had expected Microsoft to do at the beginning. I was SO excited for BUILD last year, only to be disappointed to see that Metro was being shoved down our throats in situations where it's unsuitable. That disappointment turned to dismay when Microsoft further entrenched on this untenable and indefensible position for the CP, RP, and now RTM.

I don't hate Metro and touch. I just hate this hamfisted attempt to shoehorn Metro and touch into places where it doesn't belong. One size does not f***ing fit all.

Experienced

andrewbares

Posted
  • Author
Posted
index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=317979

^ That's one of the things I HATE about Mac OS X. Commands that are specific to an app should be (in my opinion) *inside* the app, not randomly mixed with the operating system's UI.

If I wanted app-specific commands mixed with the OS's UI, then I would buy a Mac. But I don't, and I want my PC.

Enthusiast

Ottawa Gamerz

Posted
Posted

can someone answer me this?? why the hell does everyone need the start menu!! no one likes to press windows key and double click any more? u so use to having it a BIG change! well if u asked me and u didnt microsoft should have an options if they did no one would complain at all .. i came from 95 straight to 7 now 8 runs fast looks nice cheep to buy .. and i dont need the start menu but thats me and one more big thing login is nice if u dont know ur pass u dont get in so when u leave the house u know ur pc is safe from mom pop kids gf wife.. now my spelling sucks my grammer blows but i type in english so if u can read this not my fn prob

Grand Master

Dot Matrix

Posted
Posted

And they get their attention. Tablets. Phones. Et al. Hell, I have a touchscreen smartphone.

But what happens when touch, Kinect, remotes, etc need to interact with a desktop PC? The Desktop GUI isn't going to cut it. I've laid out various examples of PCs where the desktop doesn't make sense anymore, and where the user can get away without going to it. The world has changed since this desktop GUI was developed, and has for the most part, out grown it. Sticking to it makes no sense at all if you expect future growth. In case you haven't noticed, the desktop hasn't seen substantial growth in the last few years, and killer apps are starting to fade away to other devices. Win32 is in its death knell.

As I've argued in other threads, Metro abandons the most important hallmark of the desktop GUI paradigm: multitasking. Full-screen (side-by-side is a pathetic and useless hack), inefficient use of space if you have large high-res monitors, very poor task switching, very poor or nonexistent sharing/transfer of data between programs, etc. Add to that other touch-centric features like oversized UI elements for the imprecision of touch and things like the Charms Bar that is less intuitive with a mouse.

Metro may be fine if you have a phone, but it's entirely inappropriate for the desktop. So why is it being shoved into our faces? Why can't we boot straight to the desktop? Why can't we get a Start Menu? Why is it that, by default, if I open a video on the desktop, I get dumped in that pathetic feature-stripped excuse of a media player?

You know what would make me happy? If, by default, users of desktops and laptops boot straight to the desktop and if we had a Start Menu, and if files opened from desktop programs will open in other desktop applications. And if, by default, tablet users boot into Metro, and got the Start Screen, and files launched by Metro applications opened in a Metro app by default. Then I'd call Windows 8 the greatest Windows ever. And, you know, that's what I had expected Microsoft to do at the beginning. I was SO excited for BUILD last year, only to be disappointed to see that Metro was being shoved down our throats in situations where it's unsuitable. That disappointment turned to dismay when Microsoft further entrenched on this untenable and indefensible position for the CP, RP, and now RTM.

I don't hate Metro and touch. I just hate this hamfisted attempt to shoehorn Metro and touch into places where it doesn't belong. One size does not f***ing fit all.

All of this has been answered over and over again, and I'm not going into it anymore. You're comparing a UX that's less than a year old, to one that's been established for the last 20+ years. Think about that. Win32 is pretty ancient in computing terms. Newer technology is knocking at the door, and stealing market share daily.

Oh, and Windows 8 does have a Start Menu - The Start Screen, which works wonderfully with mice. ;) Just put it this way, would you rather have the new multi-mon features, or the Start Menu back? Because according to +BrandonLive, you can't have both.

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