Xbox One "Who's telling the Truth about the Cloud"

[GotBored]

 

hip-hop gamer explains a few of the facts.

[JonnyLH]

hip-hop gamer explains a few of the facts.

Facts? He's collating articles found on the internet to create an opinion based on the information what's released. Even though he missed the Watch Dogs article, Phil Spencer interview, Turn 10 and Respawn.

 

Thread worthy? This has been debated to no-end and we're only going to be able to judge it by seeing some games.

[Skiver Veteran]

I have to agree with Jonny, this seems a lot of opinion based on stuff we all know. In fact his portion on Forza I think is pretty outdated, I thought they had already confirmed that the game would function exactly the same without an online connection, you just wouldnt get the benefit of the Drivertars. Also I think he somewhat undersold what the cloud was doing for Forza, If I remember correctly then its not just about giving you a 'ghost' car, it was more around the AI learning from how you drive and that computing being done in the cloud rather than locally.

To be honest I can't take the guy seriously when he is trying to be a 'gangster' with the whole shots fired rubbish!

[Vandalsquad]

 

hip-hop gamer explains a few of the facts.

 

Hip-Hop gamer knows more then Microsofts developers, While discussing 'Facts' already disproved by Turn 10 and other companies  :laugh:

[GotBored]

To be honest I can't take the guy seriously when he is trying to be a 'gangster' with the whole shots fired rubbish!

 

Yes I could have chosen several other videos which say similar things but this guys was in general / laymans terms

 

Facts? He's collating articles found on the internet to create an opinion based on the information what's released. Even though he missed the Watch Dogs article, Phil Spencer interview, Turn 10 and Respawn.

 

Thread worthy? This has been debated to no-end and we're only going to be able to judge it by seeing some games.

 

He researched and even interviewed real developers. He gave facts based on his interviews. (example 'The Crew' made by Ubisoft on the Xbox One has mapped the entire US of A and it doesn't use the cloud' *Fact*)

 

Shadow/Ghost of gameplay isn't anything new *Fact*

 

Mark Cerny dismissed the cloud for graphics processing, he has been in the industry for a very long time. *Fact*

 

Sony has 'cloud' graphics processing in a compressed video format (aka Gaikai) and also Nvidia have a similar method. *Fact*

 

Just cause you fail to see them doesn't mean its not there.

 

Respawn said the 'cloud' was a glorified dedicated server basically. Turn10 said the 'cloud' would be used like ghost/shadow and also to offer suggestions on purchases in the game based on what you've already bought. Phil Spencer talked about the asteroid tracking which is irrelevant to graphics, what does it matter that a linked network can be multiple trackings? Phil Spencer also first said the Xbox One was 3x as powerful as the Xbox 360, later changing that to 8x and then again to 10x. Watch Dogs states that the cloud allows them to have bigger game worlds and more items in them because they are hosted on a dedicated server like every MMO our there. There are benefits to the 'cloud' but its not graphics, none of your sources support your ideology.

[MikeChipshop Member]

Lol at 'Facts'.

[Skiver Veteran]

Yes I could have chosen several other videos which say similar things but this guys was in general / laymans terms

 

 

He researched and even interviewed real developers. He gave facts based on his interviews. (example 'The Crew' made by Ubisoft on the Xbox One has mapped the entire US of A and it doesn't use the cloud' *Fact*)

 

Shadow/Ghost of gameplay isn't anything new *Fact*

 

Mark Cerny dismissed the cloud for graphics processing, he has been in the industry for a very long time. *Fact*

 

Sony has 'cloud' graphics processing in a compressed video format (aka Gaikai) and also Nvidia have a similar method. *Fact*

 

Just cause you fail to see them doesn't mean its not there.

Taking each one in turn

He asked ONE publisher about how ONE game uses the cloud - nothing else is stated in the video therefore FACT - not every game will use the cloud in all possible ways so this is a fact, but it means jack.

Drivertars, has highlighted by me, is more than just ghost cars - http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/121606-forza-5-for-xbox-one-drivatar-cloud-sourced-ai-learns-how-to-drive-like-real-people - FACT

 

Mark Cerny who is in noway associated with MS and quite possibly doesn't know exactly what is possible - NOT a fact but the fact i can write that statement means that what you/hip hop dude are stating is NOTFACT

 

Yes, this is a fact but you're now making the assumption that the cloud is for graphic quality alone - NOT a FACT, see Forza. It's about more than that, quality of gaming over quality of looks anytime.

I don't think anyone would deny that the cloud is going to make games look even more pretty, I doubt that it will make any difference. I don't deny that with Gaikai Sony can get round backwards compatibility issues and do other amazing things. This however doesn't mean that MS's vision on the cloud is any less worthy.

To be honest from the hip hop dudes other videos and you're replies completely dismissing what we are saying, I'm going to put this down to yet another PS vs MS thread on how their beloved console is better than the other! Bored of that crap, take your favorite console and love it, but don't try to tell me I'm wrong for my choices, I'm not doing it about your's!

 

[BajiRav]

Mark Cerny dismissed the cloud for graphics processing, he has been in the industry for a very long time. *Fact*

How do I join the cult of Mark Cerny?

[Showan]

By the Power of the Cloud, I know pronounce... Just kidding

I've keep hearing what the cloud can or can't do, and it always seem to be coming from the mouths of people who have NO background with Cloud Computing. I sorta get how Cloud Computations work from an IT/Application standpoint at my job (we have a couple of engineers/programmers who use it. And it does work.

From a gaming standpoint, I don't think graphics will be the main draw. This clown in the video, hinted at one thing I was thinking as well. And that was, living worlds that go on even when not gaming. I think that's why Microsoft wanted the Xbox One in a low power state as well. Because that all you need for a game to update in real time. And I'm thinking there are goin to be a LOT of companion apps for Xbox One games. Can you imagine playing, say Grand Theft Auto, you got yourself a nice house/fort... But when you are not playing the game, the fort can be burglarized and such,now imagine having to pull out your phone or tablet go to the app and defend your place... Having the options of lasers, or dogs, or turrets, etc... If you choose to defend your house or not will be reflected when you turn on the game next time. House still in great shape, or ransackd... Well that's my take on it at least. I can be dead wrong on the matter.

Or maybe I just got my head in the clouds.

[MorganX]

There are benefits to the 'cloud' but its not graphics

Not real-time local graphics anyway ...

[GotBored]

To be honest from the hip hop dudes other videos and you're replies completely dismissing what we are saying, I'm going to put this down to yet another PS vs MS thread on how their beloved console is better than the other! Bored of that crap, take your favorite console and love it, but don't try to tell me I'm wrong for my choices, I'm not doing it about your's!

 

You dont seem to understand it not about PS4 vs XB One, its about what actually possible so people don't just get their hopes up and fall for the hype.

 

Because if they do they will eventually be disappointed and it will bring more bad opinions of Microsoft.

[JonnyLH]

You dont seem to understand it not about PS4 vs XB One, its about what actually possible so people don't just get their hopes up and fall for the hype.

 

Because if they do they will eventually be disappointed and it will bring more bad opinions of Microsoft.

Personally, I feel the promise of dedicated servers on each game is something which makes the cloud worth its weight alone. 

[Thief000]

http://graphics.cs.williams.edu/papers/CloudLight13/CloudLightTechReport13.mp4

 

This says enough. Cloud computation for real time lighting models is coming and with latencies up to 1000ms has been demonstrated.

 

Now figure out the difference in magnitude of Azure over Gaikai and you'll see it's no joke.

 

Sorry to break the PS fanboy's heart again. It must suck...

[GotBored]

http://graphics.cs.williams.edu/papers/CloudLight13/CloudLightTechReport13.mp4

 

This says enough. Cloud computation for real time lighting models is coming and with latencies up to 1000ms has been demonstrated.

 

Now figure out the difference in magnitude of Azure over Gaikai and you'll see it's no joke.

 

Sorry to break the PS fanboy's heart again. It must suck...

 

I don't understand how you think a simple lighting model done externally can improve graphics, lighting can be seen the same as an item in an MMO world. The light doesn't get better graphics, its merely an item processed outside of the test server. Its like if you join an MMO world and there is a lamp there.. that's done in the MMO server.. except your example uses a light source.

[Thief000]

Really? So better lighting models don't improve on graphics? Are you really going there? Are you quite sure about what you've just said? You'll want to see the difference in lighting in for example a game like the original Quake/Unreal and newer Unreal Engine 3 games and then the new UE4 demos, makes a hell of a lot of difference in how graphics are perceived. A lighting model is a VERY large part of the graphical interpretation of a rendered 3D world.

It's local variation computation on that steamed lighting model that makes all the difference. You see it clearly demonstrated in that video and isn't possible done in real time locally as it requires too much computing power to track individual photonic traces. That isn't simple, not by a long shot.

 

I don't understand how you think a simple lighting model done externally can improve graphics, lighting can be seen the same as an item in an MMO world. The light doesn't get better graphics, its merely an item processed outside of the test server. Its like if you join an MMO world and there is a lamp there.. that's done in the MMO server.. except your example uses a light source.

[GotBored]

Really? So better lighting models don't improve on graphics? Are you really going there? Are you quite sure about what you've just said? You'll want to see the difference in lighting in for example a game like Quake and newer Unreal Engine 3 games, makes a hell of a lot of difference in how graphics are perceived. A lighting model is a VERY large part of the graphical interpretation of a rendered 3D world.

It's local variation computation on that steamed lighting model that makes all the difference. You see it clearly demonstrated in that video and isn't possible done in real time locally as it requires too much computing power to track individual photonic traces.

 

The main difference between Quake and Unreal Engine 3 isn't in the lighting.

 

 

[Thief000]

Really? No HDRR and per pixel lighting, dynamic shadows...there is a huge difference in the lighting between those engine revisions. Done talking about this, this thread is yet another fanboy flame starter and reported.

 

The main difference between Quake and Unreal Engine 3 isn't in the lighting.

 

 

 

[Skiver Veteran]

You dont seem to understand it not about PS4 vs XB One, its about what actually possible so people don't just get their hopes up and fall for the hype.

 

Because if they do they will eventually be disappointed and it will bring more bad opinions of Microsoft.

If its not about the two consoles, then why was Gaikai even mentioned? Why was the LEAD architect for the PS4 interviewed?

 

I'm sorry but as I said, from the guys video post history you can quite see he leans more to the Sony Consoles. In all honesty I think Sony are getting a bit of bad press at the moment so the why MS is going to fail news articles are coming out in strength.

As we are talking facts and you seem to believe that there are people falling for Marketing Hype then I will refer back to Drivertars which has been details in what it can do and I love the sound of. Whether that is reliant on the cloud or whether MS/Turn 10 are simply choosing to exploit the cloud for this its a bonus to me so there is no hype failing there. Also as it's been discussion match making should be a lot better, again another bonus. Lastly, as Theif has pointed out there are at least some visuals that can be offloaded to the cloud. Will that element make the quality better? Probably not, but what it does allow is for that small processing offload to then be re-direct at the stuff that is more intensive, it may only be small but the more processing power that can be freed up by the cloud the more power you have locally.

[MorganX]

I don't understand how you think a simple lighting model done externally can improve graphics, lighting can be seen the same as an item in an MMO world. The light doesn't get better graphics, its merely an item processed outside of the test server. Its like if you join an MMO world and there is a lamp there.. that's done in the MMO server.. except your example uses a light source.

It's a start. When that becomes real-time reflections ... Anyway, this is not a platform fight, Sony, Nintendo and any other platform can utilize cloud computing when it becomes beneficial. Microsoft is simply saying they're leveraging what they can do "now" to enhance their platform and games in various ways. I have never heard Microsoft say it will improve graphics rendering locally.

[GotBored]

If its not about the two consoles, then why was Gaikai even mentioned? Why was the LEAD architect for the PS4 interviewed?

 

I'm sorry but as I said, from the guys video post history you can quite see he leans more to the Sony Consoles. In all honesty I think Sony are getting a bit of bad press at the moment so the why MS is going to fail news articles are coming out in strength.

As we are talking facts and you seem to believe that there are people falling for Marketing Hype then I will refer back to Drivertars which has been details in what it can do and I love the sound of. Whether that is reliant on the cloud or whether MS/Turn 10 are simply choosing to exploit the cloud for this its a bonus to me so there is no hype failing there. Also as it's been discussion match making should be a lot better, again another bonus. Lastly, as Theif has pointed out there are at least some visuals that can be offloaded to the cloud. Will that element make the quality better? Probably not, but what it does allow is for that small processing offload to then be re-direct at the stuff that is more intensive, it may only be small but the more processing power that can be freed up by the cloud the more power you have locally.

 

Gaikai and Mark Cerny were mentioned because someone tried to point out that facts weren't used in the video and only opinions, but he based those opinions off facts and I directed him to what the facts were.

 

The hype is about miracle graphics in the 'cloud' which is false, I'm not dismissing that the cloud has big improvements over the X360 just the graphics hype.

 

 

It's a start. When that becomes real-time reflections ... Anyway, this is not a platform fight, Sony, Nintendo and any other platform can utilize cloud computing when it becomes beneficial. Microsoft is simply saying they're leveraging what they can do "now" to enhance their platform and games in various ways. I have never heard Microsoft say it will improve graphics rendering locally.

 

Yes I agree it is a start, but I don't expect it to mature or become beneficial on a large scale like a major console anytime soon.(Not for the PS4 or Xbox One generation at least). But as you said any platform can utilize it and you should be able to get a network card with a small chipset which can transfer that data into tv format and a chipset for controllers and away you go, we wont need an actual gaming console to play then.

[BajiRav]

Just going to quote my post from the Mark Cerny says thread here,

 

XB1 has X amount of processing capacity.
A game requires Y+Z for processing.
If Z can be offloaded without affecting game experience, a developer can choose to do it.

A traditional game will adjust Y+Z to fit within X.
An XB1 game will offload Z and will have the entire X for processing Y.

That's the whole ****ing point of "cloud" in XB1. Is it very hard to understand?

[GotBored]

XB1 has X amount of processing capacity.

A game requires Y+Z for processing.

If Z can be offloaded without affecting game experience, a developer can choose to do it.

A traditional game will adjust Y+Z to fit within X.

An XB1 game will offload Z and will have the entire X for processing Y.

That's the whole ****ing point of "cloud" in XB1. Is it very hard to understand?

 

I could use the same example on anything,

 

Onya has X amount of processing capacity.

A game requires Y+Z for processing.

If Z can be offloaded without affecting game experience, a developer can choose to do it.

A traditional game will adjust Y+Z to fit within X.

An Onya game will offload Z and will have the entire X for processing Y.

That's the whole ****ing point of "cloud" in Onya. Is it very hard to understand?

 

Doesn't mean its going to improve or can improve its graphics.

[Showan]

If the graphics improve.. That means the "Cloud" has done it's part as far as the improvement goes.  It does not matter how as long as its done.

 

It does NOT matter if that graphical improvement happens locally or in the Cloud.

[JonnyLH]

I could use the same example on anything,

 

Onya has X amount of processing capacity.

A game requires Y+Z for processing.

If Z can be offloaded without affecting game experience, a developer can choose to do it.

A traditional game will adjust Y+Z to fit within X.

An Onya game will offload Z and will have the entire X for processing Y.

That's the whole ****ing point of "cloud" in Onya. Is it very hard to understand?

 

Doesn't mean its going to improve or can improve its graphics.

How can you not see that logic?

 

If there's more resources available on the box, developers can focus on more graphical elements or further optimization. What is there not to understand here? 

[M_Lyons10]

I don't mean this to come off as rude by any means, so I apologize in advance...  LOL

 

But I do not understand HOW people can be THIS confused about what the cloud is capable of for the XBox One in 2013!  This isn't some voodoo technology that is brand new or anything.  LOL

How can you not see that logic?
 

If there's more resources available on the box, developers can focus on more graphical elements or further optimization. What is there not to understand here? 

 

EXACTLY!

 

When the cloud is doing the math and the console is just creating the sprites, etc., it could have a significant impact.  The example was shown of a ton of asteroids in space (Completely calculated and rendered on the console), then they hooked in to the cloud and had 10 times that number of asteroids able to be displayed (I forget the exact difference).  That is something that, at that graphics quality would not have been possible without the cloud.  BUT if the graphics were less detailed, they would have been able to render more of the asteroids locally...  It works both ways.