Women gang raped by 10-12 juveniles in park

[KingCracker]

No amount of self-defense classes is going to protect them against a group of 10-12 guys.

I wasn't talking about hand to hand self defense, I was talking more along the lines of a firearm. You would be surprised at how fast they would of ran away. There was a video of a robbery last year 5 guys came in to rob a jewelry store and once the owner showed her weapon they tucked tail and ran, I suspect that these teens would of done the same thing.  

[ZakO]

I wasn't talking about hand to hand self defense, I was talking more along the lines of a firearm. You would be surprised at how fast they would of ran away. There was a video of a robbery last year 5 guys came in to rob a jewelry store and once the owner showed her weapon they tucked tail and ran, I suspect that these teens would of done the same thing.  

 

Alternatively, since the attackers had the element of surprise, they could have taken the gun and used it on the women afterwards. Hypothetical situations are fun aren't they?

[ILikeTobacco]

The EU is nothing like the US in that regard. The US has the same society across all the states, the EU does not.

No its not. California, Oklahoma, Florida, New York, Michigan.... Those have about as much in common as Germany does to Italy. Language means nothing unless you want to claim the UK is the same society as the US?

[KingCracker]

Alternatively, since the attackers had the element of surprise, they could have taken the gun and used it on the women afterwards. Hypothetical situations are fun aren't they?

Not really. they wouldn't of known she had a firearm if she was concealed carrying. 

[ILikeTobacco]

Alternatively, since the attackers had the element of surprise, they could have taken the gun and used it on the women afterwards. Hypothetical situations are fun aren't they?

If you want to take that route, I guess it is the woman's fault she got raped. She should have called the police like a civilized individual in a civilized country. Clearly the woman is at fault for her rape since she didn't do that until after she was raped.

[Som]

why does this thread keep popping up, can it be closed , its depressing seeing this on the homepage

[GotBored]

No its not. California, Oklahoma, Florida, New York, Michigan.... Those have about as much in common as Germany does to Italy. Language means nothing unless you want to claim the UK is the same society as the US?

 

You may consider them different but its not the same as the differences between complete and separate countries. You have the same President for one and basically follow the same rules/laws/culture not the same in Europe.

 

If you want to take that route, I guess it is the woman's fault she got raped. She should have called the police like a civilized individual in a civilized country. Clearly the woman is at fault for her rape since she didn't do that until after she was raped.

 

I don't see the connection between what Zak0 wrote and where you went... :/

[ZakO]

If you want to take that route, I guess it is the woman's fault she got raped. She should have called the police like a civilized individual in a civilized country. Clearly the woman is at fault for her rape since she didn't do that until after she was raped.

 

...No. I have no problem with people carrying guns in an attempt to defend themselves, what I do have a problem with is gun nuts implying this couldn't possibly have happened if she was carrying a gun, like they do with every crime. A gun might have made the situation better, it might have made it worse, nobody knows, I was simply offering a countering story of what could have happened.

[KingCracker]

...No. I have no problem with people carrying guns in an attempt to defend themselves, what I do have a problem with is gun nuts implying this couldn't possibly have happened if she was carrying a gun. A gun might have made the situation better, it might have made it worse, nobody knows.

 You haven't got a problem with someone carrying a gun for protection but you said that they would of took it away from her... I have never heard a single case where someone took the gun away from the person defending themselves with it.  The overwhelming majority of gun carry permit holders carry concealed and open carry is often frowned upon, those teens would of never knew she had a gun until she pulled it out.  

[ILikeTobacco]

You may consider them different but its not the same as the differences between complete and separate countries. You have the same President for one and basically follow the same rules/laws/culture not the same in Europe.

 

 

Again, not true. California does not have the same rules/laws/culture as Oklahoma. In that case, the difference is greater than the different between Germany and Italy. The only thing they have in common is that they are on the same land mass. In Europe, you have the EU laws and the country laws. In the US, you have the federal laws and the state laws. It is the same thing. There are many cases where you go 5 miles over a border and everything changes. They are not the same society and culture.

 

Foreigner's wouldn't know any better because few go to anywhere but the big cities where the airports are. If that has been your experience of the US, you have absolutely no clue how different parts of US society really is.

[ZakO]

 You haven't got a problem with someone carrying a gun for protection but you said that they would of took it away from her... I have never heard a single case where someone took the gun away from the person defending themselves with it.  The overwhelming majority of gun carry permit holders carry concealed and open carry is often frowned upon, those teens would of never knew she had a gun until she pulled it out.  

 

Errr, no. I didn't say they would have definitely taken it from her, I simply said it's an alternative possibility. If you're knocked to the ground by surprise and suddenly 10-12 people are grabbing at you, concealed or not, there's a possibility they'll feel the gun before you get a chance to pull it out. 

 

The point is, nobody knows if a gun would have helped, or made the situation worse, yet every time you get gun fanatics saying "if they had a gun this would have never happened!", crime happens to people carrying guns too. 

[GotBored]

Again, not true. California does not have the same rules/laws/culture as Oklahoma. In that case, the difference is greater than the different between Germany and Italy. The only thing they have in common is that they are on the same land mass. In Europe, you have the EU laws and the country laws. In the US, you have the federal laws and the state laws. It is the same thing. There are many cases where you go 5 miles over a border and everything changes. They are not the same society and culture.

 

Foreigner's wouldn't know any better because few go to anywhere but the big cities where the airports are. If that has been your experience of the US, you have absolutely no clue how different parts of US society really is.

 

I've been to country towns in the US and the cities, you may think its very different but its nowhere near the same as going from Germany to Italy. Or Russia to Spain, or UK to Bulgaria, etc etc.

 

EU Laws? Not all European Countries are members of European Union.

[KingCracker]

Errr, no. I didn't say they would have definitely taken it from her, I simply said it's an alternative possibility. If you're knocked to the ground by surprise and suddenly 10-12 people are grabbing at you, concealed or not, there's a possibility they'll feel the gun before you get a chance to pull it out. 

 

The point is, nobody knows if a gun would have helped, or made the situation worse, yet every time you get gun fanatics saying "if they had a gun this would have never happened!", crime happens to gun owners too. 

It would of gave her a chance. BTW I like how you try to throw insults in with your comments,it makes me not want to take you seriously. 

[ZakO]

It would of gave her a chance. BTW I like how you try to throw insults in with your comments,it makes me not want to take you seriously. 

 

It also would have given her a chance to get shot/killed, nobody knows, anything could have happened. Again, the point is it's up to the person if they want to carry a gun to ***attempt*** to protect themselves (or potentially make the situation worse). Like I said, I have no problem with people carrying guns, only with people who make the assumption crimes definitely wouldn't have happened if the victim was carrying a gun.

[KingCracker]

It also would have given her a chance to get shot/killed, nobody knows, anything could have happened. Again, the point is it's up to the person if they want to carry a gun to ***attempt*** to protect themselves (or potentially make the situation worse). Like I said, I have no problem with people carrying guns, only with people who claim guns are the solution to everything and if everyone was carrying one no crimes would ever happen.

 I would rather have a gun than not, id definitely take my chances rather than not have one.

[ILikeTobacco]

It also would have given her a chance to get shot/killed, nobody knows, anything could have happened. Again, the point is it's up to the person if they want to carry a gun to ***attempt*** to protect themselves (or potentially make the situation worse). Like I said, I have no problem with people carrying guns, only with people who make the assumption crimes definitely wouldn't have happened if the victim was carrying a gun.

Who are you arguing? The person you quoted said chance, not guaranteed which is what you are arguing against.

[ILikeTobacco]

I've been to country towns in the US and the cities, you may think its very different but its nowhere near the same as going from Germany to Italy. Or Russia to Spain, or UK to Bulgaria, etc etc.

 

EU Laws? Not all European Countries are members of European Union.

I have lived in both Germany and Italy and yes, the differences are bigger than that in the US going from somewhere like California to Oklahoma. Every single little detail is different.

[FloatingFatMan]

I have lived in both Germany and Italy and yes, the differences are bigger than that in the US going from somewhere like California to Oklahoma. Every single little detail is different.

 

Also add in that half the EU countries can't stand the other half. :p  Don't forget, we've got centuries worth of fighting each other tooth and nail behind us.  I'm amazed the EU functions at all, tbh. :p

 

It's not actual animosity at a country level, but it's there... You can hear it in how we relate to each other (UK/France -> we call them Frogs, they call us Ros Bouef's).

[ILikeTobacco]

UK/France -> we call them Frogs, they call us Ros Bouef's).

lol. Thats great.

[DocM]

I've called you out on those numbers before, so you know very well that they're misleading. There really isn't any doubt that the US is a lot more violent country and that the death penalty hasn't done anything to help the situation, which was the point being made. The death penalty deserves no place in any civilised society.

And you are in a state of denial that for all practical purposes, other than language - and even then multilingualism reduces that argument, Eastern and Western Europe are organised as an operational state as the European Union. Chlturs are blending, just as has occurred here though there are still huge differences between rural/city, north/south/west etc. You should see a Bostonian trying to make heads of tails of a Cajun of Uper talking! European statistics should be combined, and you should come to grips with the fact that the EU has its violent parts just as we do.

[Noir Angel]

The countries operating in the EU retain their sovereignty and can leave the EU any time they wish if they disagree with it's policies. Can US states that don't like the constitution secede and become independent countries?

[+Raze Subscriber²]

The countries operating in the EU retain their sovereignty and can leave the EU any time they wish if they disagree with it's policies. Can US states that don't like the constitution secede and become independent countries?

No they can't, some have tried, but the Supreme Court in 1869 said no.

 

from Texas vs White -

 

"Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase wrote: ?When Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation.

All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the state.

The Act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final.?

 

Are any EU members planning on leaving now or in the near future?

[theyarecomingforyou]

And you are in a state of denial that for all practical purpose, other than language - and even then multilingualism reduces that argument, Eastern and Western Europe are organised as an operational state as the European Union. As such their statistics should be combined. The EU has its violent parts just as we do.

The EU is a political union; the United States is a country. Nobody disputes that many EU countries?particularly those in Eastern Europe?have high crime and high murder rates but the reality is that countries like Lithuania or Latvia aren't considered social and economic equals to countries like the UK, the US or Australia. It would be like me including Puerto Rico in comparisons because it is legally an unincorporated territory of the United States.

 

The reality is that by western standards the US has a very high murder rate, despite having the death penalty.

[Noir Angel]

No they can't, some have tried, but the Supreme Court in 1869 said no.

 

Are any EU members planning on leaving now or in the near future?

 

Wouldn't know, I don't particularly care, and it doesn't make the comparison any less false.

[Noir Angel]

The EU is a political union; the United States is a country. Nobody disputes that many EU countries?particularly those in Eastern Europe?have high crime and high murder rates but the reality is that countries like Lithuania or Latvia aren't considered social and economic equals to countries like the UK, the US or Australia. It would be like me including Puerto Rico in comparisons because it is a legally an unincorporated territory of the United States.

 

The reality is that by western standards the US has a very high murder rate, despite having the death penalty.

 

Precisely. Point is, if the death penalty advocates were right the US would have a much lower rate of murder than the EU does, in reality arguing over *how* much higher is just semantics, the point is the evidence is the same, the death penalty does not act as a suitable deterrent to criminals.