Dell cancels Indian tech support

[BroChaos Veteran]

i haven't read all the previous posts, but being someone who has to deal with dell customer support from time to time, i think this is a good move. it was hard to communicate with them, and it's also good to keep jobs in the US.

[darkmark327]

I've been told blatantly false information when I called (not that this is country specific). For example, I wanted to know if I could swap out my motherboard when the time comes, first they asked why, and I explained that Intel moved to a new socket and such and she just kinda said, yeah ok (not knowing what I meant) and then said she would ask someone. She came back and told me I could...well I'm glad I read later that in spite of the common ATX connector, you will fry your stuff if you use a Dell PSU with standard ATX (not to mention, the motherboard in that case is not supported by standoffs but some proprietary crap.) So I built my own the next time, since tech support was definitely not on the pro/con list for that decision.

[DELTA75329]

I work for a large company which sends stock from warehouses to stores and customers. Like other similar companies, customers order product and you have to rely on "shelf-pickers" to get the right item.

"Naturally", the company (which does hundreds of millions in sales) hires the least qualified people to do the job in order to cut costs - as if "self-picking" jobs demanded high wages but in this case for most English isn't their first language and I'd wager some can't even read. So even if someone orders the right stuff - chances are sometimes the wrong items are picked.

I don't know what to make of this. On one hand, I can't help but see ignorance in making such a blanket statement. As if not having English as your first language somehow disqualifies someone to do a job even if he learned it fluently. On the other hand, I think I can see exactly what you mean. A lot of companies out there decide to compromise and so they select people who really don't have even the most basic of skills to effectively perform on the job. Some of these companies know this and take advantage of it as a way to justify paying these less than qualified people less. Whether or not that?s wrong or immoral is an entirely different discussion, but it serves to assert the idea of ?you get what you pay for?. All things being equal, I think the problem has more to do with training and less to do with the "cost cutting" people your company hired. To error on occasion is human, and you make it sound like you couldn?t possibly make a mistake on the job. Are you suggesting that your company?s track record with regards to order accuracy was absolutely spotless prior to the implementation of these cost cutting measures?

I think cost cutting almost always = quality cutting.

I disagree.

Not every cost cutting measure leads to a decrease in quality. Sometimes, it's actually stupid not to do it. Leaving the obvious economic advantages on the sidelines this time, such cuts have been to shown to demonstrate a greater efficiency and advance existing technology to push the envelope even further than before. No, I?m not talking about replacing people with robots. Take American Honda Motors for example. When Honda went to hydro-forming their sub frames, suspension components, and parts of their award-winning V6 engine on the Accord, the result was a stronger frame with less spots and welds. A more responsive and nimble suspension. A cleaner burning engine that weighs less so it doesn?t have to work as hard as hard to move itself and the overall lighter car. Engine power could be increased as well: due to the higher quality of metals used in construction, the combustion chamber was better able to withstand more powerful combustions of gasoline. I know this sounds like I should be writing the company?s brochures, but I have a point to make here. This process of hydro-forming did more than increase the quality and value of the Accord, it was faster and less expensive than the previous assembly method, and it reduced production time contributed to further cost cuts in doing so. I don't think anyone would argue that the Accord isn't a high quality car. The Accord's reputation is pretty much the gold standard by which a sizable chunk of car shoppers in the market judge quality and reliability. Why were these cuts even needed in the first place? Well, the ever-increasing demands of autoworker unions in America is a start, but that?s another discussion. The U.S. government is increasingly mandating tougher restrictions on fuel efficiency and engine emissions, while simultaneously calling for safer cars on the road. Accomplishing these demands isn?t cheap, nor is it easy to find qualified engineers up to the challenges of designing these newly compliant automobiles for the next generation. The technology required for cleaner engines is exceedingly complex and sensitive. More sophisticated, more compressive active and passive safety systems such as continuously adaptable traction systems and airbags that surround the cabin are very, very expensive. Honda won?t be successful if they can?t sell cars. And they can?t sell cars in the United States if those cars do not comply with the law. And Honda is not going to sell cars to people who want to drive them in the numbers they need if the products are too expensive. Suddenly cost cutting doesn?t sound so evil anymore.

/EDIT: DrunkenMaster said "almost always"...so, clearly he never intended to say ALL cost cuts are bad. Opps. I apologize for the error on my part. Had I read that correctly the first time, I wouldn't written this portion of the post in the first place. In any case... it's here, so oh well.

Edited November 25, 2003 by DELTA75329

[spacezombie]

Very intresting topic. LOL.

Why doesn't the US cut off all ties with India then? :alien:

[bonobozoot]

Very intresting topic. LOL.

Why doesn't the US cut off all ties with India then? :alien:

what a first post!! if the US were to send jobs to different countries and then cut off ties with each one of them, there would no end in sight for all the friends it lost.

[winterminute]

bonobozoot >> Your comments are typical of the indian workforce regardless of where you live -- You don't understand that "You get what you pay for". You are blindsided at the possibility of stealing someone's job to make some money. I bet you save up all your money and send it back to India instead of putting into the the American economy that funds your paycheck.

Business are too focused on short-term costing cutting, we can all agree about that, but we also need to look at the fact that India is encouraging slave labor. What? It isn't slave labor? You need to wake up. If someone can get a $100,000 salary in the US and they only need to pay someone $15,000 in India then they are robbing that work-force of its fair share -- that is assuming that they have the same quality with is another issue that many have already touched on this topic.

The point is that India is the latest trend trying to destory what America works so hard for -- i.e. a quality life, a roof over our heads, providing for our families. You guys aren't the first and you aren't the last, you're just the low-integrity group of the day. Everyone in India is seen the same in terms of a" "Good-Enough at a cheap price = Good Employees". In 10 years, this will all settle out and there will the same percentage of idiots in India as there are in the US and your cost of wages will sky-rocket and your housing costs will go through the roof!

Don't think this won't happen? Look at Japan in the late 80s, they Japanese economy did so well in that period, because they had a relative-high quality to labor costs and it was a boom, but over time, it settled out and now Japan sees the labor factors the rest of the world does.

[rohithpatel]

Well 1st I have say that the tech support in India for dell really sucked. But I think its plain old ignorance showing up when people blame Indians and their accents for this. Infact if anyone is to be blamed it should be Dell.

There are accent reduction classes all over India that are meant to reduce accents and these classes are usually for call center employees. It takes like 2 months of these classes for most people to lose most of their accents. But Dell goes in gets a bunch of people who do good in thier English and tell people to answer the phone and read from a list of possible problems book.

And people saying its good that Dell is getting the jobs back to US. Well, IF the jobs do come back, do you thing it will be the same amount as the ones in India? And really was the service in US that great? I mean i knew a bunch of high-school drop outs who were working in Dell call centers in Washington state. Well ya, you can understand them but they are no where qualified to help people who don't even know "why the computer dont start".

[DELTA75329]

bonobozoot >> Your comments are typical of the indian workforce regardless of where you live -- You don't understand that "You get what you pay for". You are blindsided at the possibility of stealing someone's job to make some money. I bet you save up all your money and send it back to India instead of putting into the the American economy that funds your paycheck.

I have a question. Is there any way that you could possibly write anything more blatantly and unquestionably asinine? Who was the monster that force-fed you acid and crack cocaine on a regular basis? I?ve never read a more ignorant and thoughtlessly post from a self-proclaimed expert who thinks he actually knows something about anything. Even dan?s data isn?t anywhere remotely this dreadful. Really, like you have a clue about what the ?typical? Indian response is. And just how deep in your ass did you have to go to pull this crap about Indians ?stealing? jobs? Dude, plug that hole in your head, you?re losing hot air vital to this line of wanna-be reasoning! I?d wager you?re one of these retarded idiots from the gimme generation who can?t be bothered to actually work a full eight hours in order to do your part to help boost the American economy. You?ve just represented yourself as the most ignorant prick I?ve seen on these boards in quite a while. Nice work.

Business are too focused on short-term costing cutting, we can all agree about that, but we also need to look at the fact that India is encouraging slave labor. What? It isn't slave labor? You need to wake up. If someone can get a $100,000 salary in the US and they only need to pay someone $15,000 in India then they are robbing that work-force of its fair share -- that is assuming that they have the same quality with is another issue that many have already touched on this topic.

Wrong. You need to wake up. Right now. What defective liberal bed-wetter taught you this non-sense? Businesses are in the business of making money. I think we can all agree on that. But I don?t think anyone here can agree that you have the slightest bit of vision and insight into what their collective focus is. Your charming statement about ?slave labor? reeks of intellectual failure and overall laziness. Hey! Did you know the economics in India are not the same are they are here in the United States? Yea! No s**t jerkoff. Perhaps maybe it?s because money in India might go a little further down there. One gets more bang for his buck. At least, if the Wall Street Journal has actually done their homework.

The point is that India is the latest trend trying to destory what America works so hard for -- i.e. a quality life, a roof over our heads, providing for our families. You guys aren't the first and you aren't the last, you're just the low-integrity group of the day. Everyone in India is seen the same in terms of a" "Good-Enough at a cheap price = Good Employees". In 10 years, this will all settle out and there will the same percentage of idiots in India as there are in the US and your cost of wages will sky-rocket and your housing costs will go through the roof!

Wrong again. Please? PLEASE? find the nearest defibrillator and zap yourself a dozen and a half times. Do it. Do it now. Seriously. It?s not likely, but maybe you might be able to jump-start that oozing stack of waste in your head that?s supposed to function as a brain, which clearly is as worthless as you are. You make it sound like India has an established foreign policy in place with the intention of destroying the United States. You need to grow up. Now. You and people like you are exactly the kind of anti-capitalistic, anti-competitive, lazy union goonion ###### that stifle the growth the American economy with your stupid and brainless cries of ?no fair!? You disgusting, sleazy people have this overt sense of entitlement like the world owes you something. I?d like to know where you were educated so a complaint can be filed immediately. It must be some black-hole where stupid goes to become even more asinine. You write of working hard, but it?s clear you have no idea what that is, or even how to go about accomplishing something that would give you the right to say you EARNED anything. I see no evidence of you favoring hard work in your bulls**t cheap shots. Instead, all you?re doing is bitching about jobs you think should be yours by some divine right or something. What?s the matter? Can?t handle a little competition?

If lazy good-for-nothing clowns like yourself were not so infuriatingly common, outsourcing to other countries would not even be something that most corporations would consider. Maybe it?s an option because some Indian over in India can do your job much better than you can without asking for half the money made by an overpaid leech such as yourself. And he?d do it all without bitching and moaning as much as you do over how much work sucks. Sure, he might p**s and gripe about work, but he?s also likely to recognize the job as a stepping-stone to a better life. ANYONE who works hard and EARNS a living has this kind of outlook. Someone like you wouldn?t dare indulge the concept of competition, because that would give a company the freedom of choice to fire your ass and replace you with someone they know is more qualified. I think it?s fair to assume you?re the kind of person who wants the most bang for his buck that he can possibly get. Just how long did you keep essentials like blood and oxygen away from your brain so as to make sure you not understand that corporations want precisely the same thing? This failure on your part to understand this most basic concept is certainly part of the reason you are so completely full of s**t. If there are no other choices for said company, then your safe, and your company is screwed. They can?t replace you if there are no other candidates to be found. You coward. You make an excellent case for outsourcing with this garbage you spewed out.

Your tripe propaganda betrays your insecurity as you complain about quality of life. Everyone has the right to EARN a high standard of living, not have it handed to them. There?s a difference here genius. One must earn their way. This means you too. You want a better life? Then go out there and go get it. If Dell, or any other corporation, wishes to bestow an opportunity for someone to pursue a high quality of life, then that is a right being exercised on the part of the company and the employee. How dare you accuse someone of stealing jobs when it?s the company who RIGHTFULLY chooses to exercise their FREEDOM of choice. And don?t gimme any crap about how Dell and other corporations are removing that opportunity for you when you and people just like you are the very reason corporations even bothered to consider outsouring in the first place. Further, Dell and any company which elects to outsource OWES YOU NOTHING. Get used to it. If Dell can?t provide you an opportunity, look for a company that will. And if you find that no company will hire your sorry ass, then maybe it?s because said ass is sorely lacking in skills and as such is unemployable and worthless. That would be your fault and your problem. You blame whomever or whatever you want, but it wouldn?t change the fact that you?re a loser.

Don't think this won't happen? Look at Japan in the late 80s, they Japanese economy did so well in that period, because they had a relative-high quality to labor costs and it was a boom, but over time, it settled out and now Japan sees the labor factors the rest of the world does.

This is horrendously absurd. You don?t bother to account for any factor, such as population figures or trade policies that would have an effect on Japan?s economy. I?m not going to bother to hold your hand for you and explain it. I?d much rather prefer you check yourself into a hospital and have a lobotomy performed as soon as possible. I don?t see how your brain could incur any more damage, but at least you could do the world a favor and just SHUT THE HELL UP.

This isn?t Burger King, and things are not your way. Thank God, because otherwise the company you work for could only choose between you and nothing. Which isn?t much of a choice to start with. I don?t have any confidence you in your ability to explain how that is even vaguely an American ideal. Indeed, you?re a veritable pi?ata of stupidity. Someone hit you on the head so hard, no one can stop the flow of idiocy from spilling flooding all things logical. It?s basic: don?t be a crybaby just because someone else can out bid you for your job, especially when they?ve been asked. India didn?t break down Dell?s door and demand jobs. Seriously, if you truly deserve your job, then get off your ass, shut the f**k up, and prove it. Make sure you?re an asset to your company, not an ass who should be executed for breeding.

[NetRyder]

Holy crap! That is absolutely THE best response I have ever seen regarding this matter.

Way to go, Delta. That was one major ass-kicker :D

[spacezombie]

Absurd!!!!

Lets all go and play Call of duty!!! :p

[bonobozoot]

Wow DELTA75329, that was an amazing response.

I bet you save up all your money and send it back to India instead of putting into the the American economy that funds your paycheck.

I have never seen a dumbass remark than this. Yeah, I do send money back home but I also pay taxes just like any other citizen here in the US. I feel that it is more appropriate that I give money to both although there isnt any legal law that prevents me from sending money back home to my place.

The point is that India is the latest trend trying to destory what America works so hard for -- i.e. a quality life, a roof over our heads, providing for our families. You guys aren't the first and you aren't the last, you're just the low-integrity group of the day.

What the **** makes you think that America is the only country that does this for a living? Just because the level of development is not the same as the US doesnt mean that other countries dont try to achieve this. You are an absolute ****-head and in fact people like you making a-hole comments like these need to be clubbed into the low-intergrity group.

REad my previous post. I said this "It is fueled by the companies decision to reach for other markets simply because they face stiffer competition here in the US than abroad. The decision to explore newer markets is fueled more by greed rather than the ulterior motive to make the company famous."

You significantly destroyed the market in Mexico because you were afraid that they would trump you significantly in the world market. THen you were afraid that it will affect America as such and then you had to give loans and expect Mexico to pay back. Just the same with Iraq now where you dont know whether you want give the loans as grants or just donate it for their economy. Infact why dont you ask your President to use only 35 of 87 billion and repel the tax cuts to get more money for you so that you can sit on your fat ass and make stupid comments like these.:angry:

If you have a ****ing problem, go talk to each company that outsources and fast before their company so that they can atleast think whether they should move to India and whether they would give up their fat paychecks and bonuses that they get. No, wait.. they mismanage their accounts and lie and then ask their accounting companies to destroy evidence. That was Enron who wanted to setup a plant in India by trying to bribe Indian officials into setting up a plant there. Why couldnt they have used the money to upgrade electric plants so that you didnt have a blackout?

Amen to that. Read my previous post again and think using that pea-brain of yours. I guess even Homer Simpson must have a bigger brain than yours and will understand the reasoning i put forth. :angry:

[DrunkenMaster]

bonobozoot > Before I forget, I was joking about the outsourcing to the outsourcing thing eariler. It did actually happen to a company called Convergys and their Indian tech support actually outsourced the support back to the US to save costs????? (I dunno) . I meant to provide the link which was on the Inquirer and I can't find it.

I worked many years ago for a subsidiary of Convergys ... as stupid as it might sound (and coming from the Inquirer, some might not believe it) but trust me, it couldn't happen to a *better* cough,cough company.

America is the land of all future high tech inventions and it is only natural that it should move jobs elsewhere if it cant afford it

Can I borrow your year 2100 history book with all the technological developments the US has made (I'd like it to make some stock purchases)? They might be an economic super-power right now which leads to more investment in research but what about Japan, Korea, Canada, France, UK, Germany ........ ?

Who are you to decide who's qualified and who isnt? Doesn't the market and existing conditions in a region determine that? Do you think you are qualified because you have a Ph.D from an acclaimed university and the person who was hired doesnt. It all boils down to the ability of a person to complete the work he is given. Face it, Americans are unable to stand the competition from others who produce better or comparable items.

I don't decide. Fact is unfortunately though is that that is *exactly* what a majority of HR people decide when they pick people to do the work. Its an HR process that's dated to the Ford-era of the industrial economy. Its a harsh reality. Thankfully, a lot more companies are progressive. And even if they do hire "the least qualified" (trust me, I hate saying this), companies spend a lot of time, money educating them to keep up with the markets. So even if they leave, they'll have as good of a job or better than when they left. See, it doesn't always have to be bad. :)

IMO, I'd still look for some obvious criteria but I'm more into finding people who's personality and education suits the job. A manager where I worked has a huge power trip for all the "neat stuff" she can do. She'd try and go over and above everybody, write up her own employees ..... hopefully a senior manager learned about it and canned her. Then everyone would enjoy him talking about the power trip after :yes:

American companies can still compete quite well and reduce costs considerably when they use the right management and production styles. It means change and some companies don't like it. It took the Koreans and Japanese years to develop their economy but its strong. Hyundai is an incredible company and all the employees seem to like working for it. There's a special on it on TLC, everyone should watch it. Awesome! They never outsource ANYTHING

I'm only saying I'm sure some of them don't know how to read because I've seen the errors being made and they're quite obvious - almost too funny.

/EDIT: DrunkenMaster said "almost always"...so, clearly he never intended to say ALL cost cuts are bad.

I was just about to correct you and then noticed your "EDIT". After a few years at university, I've learnt to sneak in clauses into my sentence incase something might backfire on me! And....well.....it works! :D

[Ekimus]

Preface: winterminute has got to be the most ignorant buffoon I have seen on Neowin in.... forever. I'm hardly much of an active participant at Neowin but something has to be said to this person.

Your comments are typical of the indian workforce regardless of where you live -- You don't understand that "You get what you pay for".

The Indian workforce understands the concept of "You get what you pay for" perfectly well. If they can deliver a call center with a level of quality that matches Dell's needs at a lower cost, then why shouldn't Dell outsource the jobs to India? In the case of the corporate call center, the perceived decrease in the level of quality for Dell's valuable corporate customers outweighed the short- and long-term cost savings. Get this in your thick head - the Indian call center provided a call center in line with what Dell paid for and expected. Dell made the mistake in judging what level of call center quality their corporate customers needed.

You are blindsided at the possibility of stealing someone's job to make some money.

I think you're the blindsided one here. Why do you have this impression that someone somewhere *owes* you a job just because you live in this country? If anyone works harder, faster, better, and cheaper than me, why shouldn't they deserve my job and take my salary? It's your own responsibility to make sure you are an invaluable asset to your company and the American economy and rewarded justly. If you can't live up to that responsibility, you don't deserve a job.

I bet you save up all your money and send it back to India instead of putting into the the American economy that funds your paycheck.

And what's wrong with that? He earned it so he can do whatever he wants with it. My required contribution to the American economy was already taken out of my paycheck - about a whole 1/3rd of it. The rest is mine to use as I wish. If I take my paycheck and I bury it in my backyard, am I robbing the American economy?

Business are too focused on short-term costing cutting, we can all agree about that,...

Yes, I can agree to that. Businesses are focused on short-term cost cutting and long-term cost cutting. It's called staying competitive - get with the times.

...but we also need to look at the fact that India is encouraging slave labor.  What?  It isn't slave labor?  You need to wake up.  If someone can get a $100,000 salary in the US and they only need to pay someone $15,000 in India then they are robbing that work-force of its fair share

Go home and ask your grandparents or parents what they paid for a loaf of bread "back in the day." "Oh my god! They used to pay less for bread! What the hell is going on - we're getting ripped off here! How did we become slaves to the modern economy?!" It's called cost of living. It was lower back then and it's lower in India. Assuming your figures are anywhere near correct, that cushy $100k salary in the US translates to a cushy $15k salary in India and a cushy $15k salary in your grandparents' time because in that time and place, everything on the market costs 6.7x "less".

The point is that India is the latest trend trying to destory what America works so hard for -- i.e. a quality life, a roof over our heads, providing for our families. You guys aren't the first and you aren't the last, you're just the low-integrity group of the day. Everyone in India is seen the same in terms of a" "Good-Enough at a cheap price = Good Employees".

What an utterly rascist, despiccable, ignorant, and sorry excuse for a human being you are. How dare you judge the integrity of an entire nation and race. You really think that everyone in India is working their butts off just so they can personally screw you over? You think anyone in India gives two sh*ts about you? They're working for the exact same reason you are - a decent quality of life, a roof over their heads, and to provide for their families. What makes you think that just because you live in a certain country you deserve all the benefits of a decent life and they don't?! They deserve everything they honestly work for just the same as anyone else in any country.

In 10 years, this will all settle out and there will the same percentage of idiots in India as there are in the US and your cost of wages will sky-rocket and your housing costs will go through the roof!

Indians are experiencing tremendous economic growth and as the value of their goods and services increases, so should their wages, land values, and consumables. And I'm not too worried about any potential idiot situation in India unless winterminute gets shipped to that country.

Don't think this won't happen?  Look at Japan in the late 80s, they Japanese economy did so well in that period, because they had a relative-high quality to labor costs and it was a boom, but over time, it settled out and now Japan sees the labor factors the rest of the world does.

AFAIK the Japanese economy experienced what we observed in a in Silicon Valley over a few decades - a bubble of uninterrupted economic growth spurred by technological and manufacturing innovation that collapsed under the burden of astronomical land values and wild investments and loans. I'm sure the quality to labor cost ratio is still the same now as it was in the 80s. Japan still continues to produce high quality products and if anything, I'll bet the labor cost has decreased in recent years due to the flailing economy.

[Ekimus]

American companies can still compete quite well and reduce costs considerably when they use the right management and production styles. It means change and some companies don't like it. It took the Koreans and Japanese years to develop their economy but its strong. Hyundai is an incredible company and all the employees seem to like working for it. There's a special on it on TLC, everyone should watch it. Awesome! They never outsource ANYTHING

Every industrialized Asian country outsources, especially Japan and Korea. Your best and most innovative Japanese electronics are made in Japan because the specialized labor or exotic components needed for its production are only available locally. Once demand increases, manufacturing is standardized and outsourced to China, Thailand, Malaysia or another Asian country to increase production levels and bring down costs to remain competitive. Meanwhile your Japanese company has moved on to the next innovative feature requiring that latest product iteration to be manufactured locally. It's a process called kaizen or continuous improvement (correct me if I'm wrong about the term or its usage). The best American companies (GE, Intel) practice it under different terminology and those that don't can't compete and disappear.

I think you may have confused the idea of never outsourcing with lifetime employment in Japan. Japanese companies have managed to outsource labor for decades without laying off employees (until recently). Lower-level jobs were sent overseas and the company trained and shuffled the old employees into new products and positions. It's a cultural phenom that dates back to feudal times when a servant or samurai was given lifetime employment and protection by a lord in exchange for unwavering loyalty and commitment.

[figgy]

In India english is second language for about 90% of Indians.

Hard to believe for a country with low literacy.

You must be talking about city folk.

[bonobozoot]

Can I borrow your year 2100 history book with all the technological developments the US has made (I'd like it to make some stock purchases)? They might be an economic super-power right now which leads to more investment in research but what about Japan, Korea, Canada, France, UK, Germany ........ ?

I meant most of the technological innovations happen in the US. That doesnt mean I am discounting valuable research done elsewhere in the world. I can tell you (and you will accept this fact) that the US is the number 1 preferred destination for tech related jobs. ISnt Intel and AMD coming out with newer processors? Do they have factories outside US that contribute to this development? Maybe... but US is the main hub.

Hyundai is an incredible company and all the employees seem to like working for it. There's a special on it on TLC, everyone should watch it. Awesome! They never outsource ANYTHING

Wrong. When I was studying my 2nd year of college in India, Hyundai setup their manufacturing plant just opposite us.Infact, I can tell you confidently that apart from their senior administrative officials, everyone else was Indian. Infact, that plant was so succesful that Hyundai became the fastest selling car in the Indian market.

Edited November 26, 2003 by bonobozoot

[Bizkit]

They just have a bad ascent and its hard to understand them sometimes.

[bonobozoot]

And I'm not too worried about any potential idiot situation in India unless winterminute gets shipped to that country.

Oh man,I am fighting opinions against him and you want him to be sent to my country. He will change everybody there to make them hate him so much. :laugh: :D

[DrunkenMaster]

I meant most of the technological innovations happen in the US. That doesnt mean I am discounting valuable research done elsewhere in the world. I can tell you (and you will accept this fact) that the US is the number 1 preferred destination for tech related jobs. ISnt Intel and AMD coming out with newer processors? Do they have factories outside US that contribute to this development? Maybe... but US is the main hub.

True enough. But the human resource pool - their employees - is international. I would be interested to know how many masters and PHd grads employed at Intel and AMD in the US got their degrees domestically or abroad. Its not just the fact that they have the degrees but also the perspective they have to help make different and better widgets. You need the international talent. But you're right the hub (right now) is probably the US.

I'm just trying to show that -even though- we all don't want to see jobs "taken/stolen" ... from our own countries, we usually also have a lot of trade off in other industries. Ironically enough, a classmate of mine from HS (who now has a Master in Int'l Business) actually just went to India for a year to work for the UN. He's consulting local businesses on how to standardize everything according to ISO Certifications. You see, India is doing things to BUILD their economy as well.

Ekimus> I might have confused the two and its true there is a great deal of loyalty to companies in Japan (and prob in Asia in general). But, if you look at Hyundai as an example, virtually nothing is "outsourced" from what I recall.

They make cars. They also make the parts for their cars. They make boats to transport the cars. They make their own ship-building equipment. They make cranes to move the containers onto the boats ... its basically endless.

[darkmark327]

They make cars. They also make the parts for their cars. They make boats to transport the cars. They make their own ship-building equipment. They make cranes to move the containers onto the boats ... its basically endless.

Isn't that vertical integration?

[electic102]

You shouldn't be using Dell computers anyway becasue they are not good computers.

[timmmay]

angriest thread of the day here :D

this is deffinately a good thing for no other reason than they are too hard to have a conversation with and don't respond to your questions correctly

this has been the case for me lately with hp tech support as well....took me about 20 mins to tell the guy that i need to get a new heatspreader/fan for a compaq lappy

oh well

[winterminute]

In retrospect, with a little help from those who replied, my post was uncalled for and completely out of line. There were many stereotypes and too many generalities.

This is obviously a complex issue with many of us involved from a different perspective (i.e. User looking for tech support vs an IT worker).

I must offer my apologies and withdraw that post. I still feel strongly about jobs going overseas while turning a blind-eye to quality, and yes, I think that there are profound economic impacts when people don't spend their paychecks in the United States. As someone pointed out, Yes, it is their paycheck and they already paid taxes on it so they can do what they want. However, wages going back into the economy in the form of consumer spending is key in keeping a strong US economy and trying to pull it out of the slump we are in.

I am one person who:

1) Doesn't like the added frustration of a language or technical barrier or process barrier when I am trying to solve a problem

2) Has a great job in the technology sector for a great company, but like everyone, I worry that if this trend continues, it won't matter what you do or who do it for or how well you can do it, as someone 5 layers of management above has made a blanket decision to support outsourcing to India and you get caught up in the layoffs.

3) Has had experiencing working with India outsourcers through my job and can say that quality is a real issue. There are some extremely intelligent people in India, far smarter than I am (isn't the youngest MCSE in India @ age 8), but I have found a large percentage of workers are lower quality than US counter-parts.

Finally, I stand by my original statement, (which isn't exactly orignal), you get exactly what you pay for. Nothing is free, and, a 50%-80% reduction in labor costs doesn't come without a price....somewhere.

Again, my apologies for anyone I offended.

[bonobozoot]

No harm meant. I understand the feelings going on at this time with this issue. Am pretty sure that you didnt mean to hurt anyone with your statements. Remember, Neowin is a forum to express your opinions. ;)

[DELTA75329]

In retrospect, with a little help from those who replied, my post was uncalled for and completely out of line. There were many stereotypes and too many generalities.

I couldn?t agree more. ?nough said.

This is obviously a complex issue with many of us involved from a different perspective (i.e. User looking for tech support vs an IT worker).

Yes indeed.. I?m rather surprised this wasn?t obvious prior to your original post.

I must offer my apologies and withdraw that post. I still feel strongly about jobs going overseas while turning a blind-eye to quality, and yes, I think that there are profound economic impacts when people don't spend their paychecks in the United States. As someone pointed out, Yes, it is their paycheck and they already paid taxes on it so they can do what they want. However, wages going back into the economy in the form of consumer spending is key in keeping a strong US economy and trying to pull it out of the slump we are in.

Perhaps there is a measurable effect when the majority of people do not spend their paycheck right here in this country. Consider though, how this is exceedingly unlikely. Even Indians (and other immigrants) who work here and send money back home are absolutely forced to spend their money here. I?m not just talking about taxes, which is an entirely different discussion altogether, I?m talking about basics like rent, clothing, food, and electricity. Certainly you can easily recognize the benefit to the economy just by making ends meet. In short, let not your heart be troubled: money, countless amounts of it, is being spent everyday.

As far as how drastic not spending much money on the economy is, I would much rather leave that to intellectually honest and experienced economists who are much more qualified to pass judgment on the matter. But, as long as it?s on the table, I?d be much more worried about people who actually have money and lots of it. Successful business owners with companies of the large and small variety. Contractors, Investors? anyone with a net-worth. In short, ?rich? people. These are the people who have the real power to affect our economy. Their decisions affect us in a way that too many people are not aware of, or worse: take for granted. If you need evidence of this concept, look no further than your own employer. After all, when was the last time you got a job from a ?poor? or even a ?middle-class? person?? The American people seriously need to end their love affair with blind jealousy and stop attacking every corporation as selfish and greedy. No doubt some companies exude this behavior as a matter of course, but too many innocent of such charges are vilified anyway just because they are trying to stay where are or even advance. Sometimes being competitive requires innovation and evolution. Change and sacrifice. None of this is easy; I doubt any legitimate corporation with a reputation and history to uphold would ever take a cavalier attitude of it?s responsibilities to shareholders, employees and the public it serves. Taking responsibilities lightly is simply not logical, and it?s not even good business practice.

Speaking of business practice, I was an employee of WorldCom prior to them filing for crash and burn. I wasn?t angry that I was laid off in order for the company to save money and survive. I was angry that the layoffs were needed in the first place. All to clean up the spilled milk of children. I was furious that higher management made bad decisions when they knew in advance that said decisions were clear errors in judgment. These choices were made despite warnings of virtually certain failure just to satisfy pet projects at the expense of the very people who helped build WorldCom into the world-class corporation of it?s former glory. Am I bitter? Oh yes, absolutely. But my anger is not with WorldCom, it?s with the people who crashed one of the best companies to work with into the ground after nearly two decades of flying high. None of this would have happened had WorldCom not been helmed by some of the most dishonest people ever to wear a suit. So tarnished is the name now that it no longer exists as valid. Now, we have MCI. The corporation formally known as WorldCom. People need to understand that the rise and fall of WorldCom does not mean Corporate America should be made to suffer due to responsible decisions that people don?t like.

I am one person who:

1) Doesn't like the added frustration of a language or technical barrier or process barrier when I am trying to solve a problem

2) Has a great job in the technology sector for a great company, but like everyone, I worry that if this trend continues, it won't matter what you do or who do it for or how well you can do it, as someone 5 layers of management above has made a blanket decision to support outsourcing to India and you get caught up in the layoffs.

3) Has had experiencing working with India outsourcers through my job and can say that quality is a real issue. There are some extremely intelligent people in India, far smarter than I am (isn't the youngest MCSE in India @ age 8), but I have found a large percentage of workers are lower quality than US counter-parts.

1 ? That?s fair. I?m not a patient person. If ever I should have to call tech support, I want to resolve the issue quickly. If I?m calling in the first place, there is an error somewhere. I don?t need to add to it because someone can?t understand basic English.

2 ? A company must stay competitive to survive. And so must you. If you?re worried about being laid off, perhaps you should consider making yourself more valuable to the company. There are no guarantees in this life, save death and taxes, but you can at least try to do something to improve yourself instead of waiting for the other shoe to drop. You think the people who run the company thought that things would just work out? I doubt it. They took the initiative many times in their lives. They stayed late to finish projects. Spent their money to give that presentation the extra spice of life. They went after promotions when possible. They studied hard in college and made sure they had sound footing. Beyond that, you don?t think it was tough in the beginning to get started? You don?t think it?s difficult to maintain? These people understood early on that knowledge is power. This isn?t some catch phrase; it?s reality.

3 ? Hmm.. I guess perception is reality.

Finally, I stand by my original statement, (which isn't exactly orignal), you get exactly what you pay for. Nothing is free, and, a 50%-80% reduction in labor costs doesn't come without a price....somewhere.

This isn?t always the case. See my previous post about streaming-lining costs. Sometimes a cut in cost can lead to greater efficiency and result in a better product. Whether or not this was the case with Dell and India is debatable at best. Your argument makes a blanket statement and suggests that having tech support outsourced in India results in quality that is inherently inferior. Please elaborate: why? If you can?t think of a better reason than Indians are of lower quality than Americans, then you have no case on this point. After all, taking such a position requires that you deny the concept of human potential: essentially the point would be that some people are just inferior and do not have the ability and potential to improve. Put quite simply, there is no logical way to establish such a point as an irrevocable fact. Further, you again make an argument that fails to recognize the differences in economy operation. A 50%-80% cost reduction on Dell?s end actually leads to a pay increase to those outsourced by Dell. How could this be possible if not for the differences in the way diverse economies function?

Again, my apologies for anyone I offended.

Being Hispanic, I can?t say that I was actually offended. I just couldn?t let such an intellectually dishonest post stand unchallenged. As far as I?m concerned, an apology on your part is a fair call. Truth be told, this turn around of yours gave me pause. I was fully expecting a rebuttal of the same nature on your part.

You?ve demonstrated that you?re willing to back off and keep your mind open. The evidence is clear in that your tone this time is radically different and far more palatable. But don?t stop there? keep learning.

It?s no secret that successful people work hard to improve themselves and keep their minds open to learning as much as they can. People keep talking about ?you get what you pay for?? Sounds to me like some of these higher ups I mentioned earlier paid some hefty prices in their lives. Perhaps maybe that has something to do with their well-deserved success.

Allow me to shed a little l:shifty:The Great American Mystery: The secret to getting ahead is getting started.

:shifty: