60Hz vs 120Hz, does it really matter? (Buying a new TV)

[deck]

Here's a follow up question for which I have been unable to find a clear answer.

 

When I watch regular TV or Netflix (using my Xbox One), my TV says it's displaying at 60Hz.  

When I watch a blu-ray (also on the Xbox), the TV says it's displaying at 24Hz.

 

I haven't seen it display at 120Hz (not that I need it to, per se, I just want to understand why and what these things mean).

 

Insights?

[D. S. Veteran]

Here's a follow up question for which I have been unable to find a clear answer.

 

When I watch regular TV or Netflix (using my Xbox One), my TV says it's displaying at 60Hz.  

When I watch a blu-ray (also on the Xbox), the TV says it's displaying at 24Hz.

 

I haven't seen it display at 120Hz (not that I need it to, per se, I just want to understand why and what these things mean).

 

Insights?

 

If it's an LG, it's showing what the source is indicating. Blu-rays are 1080p24, cable boxes output at 1080i or 1080p at 60Hz, consoles should be 1080p60Hz at least on the menus. It should be using 120Hz natively but I have no idea on how to verify that claim.

[Lord Method Man]

Its always going to display at 120Hz, you can't adjust that. However it will most likely only accept input frequencies of 24, 30, and 60Hz. Some HDTVs can be hacked to allow PCs to connect to them with a120Hz refresh rate.

[HawkMan]

TV's aren't locked to a single native refresh though, TV's can have multiple native refresh rates in the electronics.

 

In Europe for example they need to natively support both 50 and 60. hence why most 120hz tv's over here are advertised as 100hz. since that's what they'll be in most cases unless you connect a console or computer. 

[123456789A]

sigh. the TV's are electronic. 60hz TV can also support 24hz. but it will display it natively at 24hz. 

 

hz are mostly meaningless numbers on modern tv's anyway. and pretty much all TV's for sale today support proper 24hz from bluray. 

 

It hz me to see people are still arguing about this.

[Shadrack]

It hz me to see people are still arguing about this.

 

Oh Enron, when did you get so punny?

 

Being a life-long-computer-nerd who wears high-prescription glasses, I honestly can't tell any difference at all between 60hz or 120hz playback.

[n_K]

Yeah you might be able to change to a 120Hz refresh rate, check your graphic card's settings, though it'll probably only do it at lower resolutions.

[giantpotato]

TV's aren't locked to a single native refresh though, TV's can have multiple native refresh rates in the electronics.

 

In Europe for example they need to natively support both 50 and 60. hence why most 120hz tv's over here are advertised as 100hz. since that's what they'll be in most cases unless you connect a console or computer. 

 

TV's ARE locked to displaying at a single refresh rate. The refresh rate of the display is the only one that can be output. When a TV says it "supports" 24hz it just means it can input that type of signal. It's like TV's with 1366x768 panels claiming they are "HD READY" and support "1080p". The only way you can display 24fps properly is if the panels refresh rate is a multiple of 24. Everyone seems to be telling you this but you don't want to listen.

[HawkMan]

TV's ARE locked to displaying at a single refresh rate. The refresh rate of the display is the only one that can be output. When a TV says it "supports" 24hz it just means it can input that type of signal. It's like TV's with 1366x768 panels claiming they are "HD READY" and support "1080p". The only way you can display 24fps properly is if the panels refresh rate is a multiple of 24. Everyone seems to be telling you this but you don't want to listen.

And again, not true, tv in Europe need to natively support both 50 and 60.

[Andre S. Veteran]

I know for one thing that if I set the refresh rate of my living room PC to 24hz, the TV is still at 120hz, because I can seamlessly enable or disable frame interpolation, which happens at 120fps; there's not the slightest hint of a refresh rate change.

[Andre S. Veteran]

Being a life-long-computer-nerd who wears high-prescription glasses, I honestly can't tell any difference at all between 60hz or 120hz playback.

Just move your mouse cursor back and forth fast enough and you'll easily see individual frames at 60hz. Now on a 120hz monitor, you have to move it twice as fast to get the same effect.

[deck]

I'm going to go a little off topic, because there is a lot of knowledge here (even if it is conflicting at times).

 

The Xbox can display Color Depth at 24, 30 and 36 bit.  My TV seems to work fine at all settings.  Again, internet reading it not clearest on this. Is there a benefit to 36bit vs 24bit?  On PC monitors I know this to be a clear benefit; I'm not sure about purpose built TVs.

[Shadrack]

Just move your mouse cursor back and forth fast enough and you'll easily see individual frames at 60hz. Now on a 120hz monitor, you have to move it twice as fast to get the same effect.

 

Thank you.... a new thing for my OCD.  Awesome.

[D. S. Veteran]

I'm going to go a little off topic, because there is a lot of knowledge here (even if it is conflicting at times).

 

The Xbox can display Color Depth at 24, 30 and 36 bit.  My TV seems to work fine at all settings.  Again, internet reading it not clearest on this. Is there a benefit to 36bit vs 24bit?  On PC monitors I know this to be a clear benefit; I'm not sure about purpose built TVs.

 

Just chose what looks better in your eyes.

[giantpotato]

 

 

And again, not true, tv in Europe need to natively support both 50 and 60.

 

 

HDTV's in America need to support 1080. This does not mean they can natively display 1080p. "supporting 50hz and 60hz" just refers to the input signal.

 

Again, you're confusing input signals with a panels native refresh rate. There are literally thousands of sites that cover this topic.

 

http://hometheater.about.com/od/televisionbasics/qt/framevsrefresh.htm

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/refresh-rate2.htm

http://www.rtings.com/info/what-is-the-refresh-rate#24p

http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html

[Andre S. Veteran]

The Xbox can display Color Depth at 24, 30 and 36 bit.  My TV seems to work fine at all settings.  Again, internet reading it not clearest on this. Is there a benefit to 36bit vs 24bit?  On PC monitors I know this to be a clear benefit; I'm not sure about purpose built TVs.

24-bit RGB has noticeable color banding especially in dark hues. A 36-bit TV may accept a 36-bit source; although AFAIK Blu-ray does not support this currently and even if Xbox One supports it, I don't know if any game actually uses that. Some blu-ray players do color upscaling however, and the TV itself might have that feature (known as Deep Color on some models).

 

I doubt the effect is very noticeable except perhaps on very specific, low quality sources.

[vcfan]

My TV says it's 600hz, is it lying to me? (Panasonic P50GT50). Can I do 24fps nicely? I haven't tried

 

600hz is the rate the pixels are refreshed, not the rate an image is sampled. the real refresh rate of that tv is 60hz. pixels in plasma need a constant pulse of charge to stay lit up, so there are 10 of these charges in one full frame. When 60 frames are displayed in a second, the amount of electrical pulses needed would be 600, hence the 600hz figure. And since your TVs real 'refresh rate' is 60hz, no you cant do native 24hz. 

[(Account no longer active)]

Here in Australia, I believe 100Hz TVs are a gimmick. I have a 50Hz LCD TV, and all motion (including from sport) seems very smooth. Surprisingly, 100Hz TVs in the store seem smoother than 50Hz TVs, however I wouldn't be surprised if it's been setup this way on purpose to make people purchase the more expensive models. I don't think humans can notice a difference above 50Hz/50 FPS.

[deck]

Set to 36bit. No noticeable improvement, but no issues either.  I'll keep it. heh

 

In case anyone is interested, the picture quality is excellent (IMO, based on limited experience).  Everything is calibrated and pretty.  The Grammy's looked great (good test for the picture; but I like the show).  

 

So far I haven't noticed a lot of banding.  The worst offender is the BBC splash screen that appears before Doctor Who on Netflix (and only at the end of the splash). Might be due to the lower quality feed (I don't think Doctor Who did HD until Matt Smith or the second year of Tennant?).

 

All in all, very satisfied.  Great price for the picture.  Highly recommend the LG47LN5400 for anyone who doesn't want 3D, Smart features or many inputs.

[HawkMan]

 

 

 

 

HDTV's in America need to support 1080. This does not mean they can natively display 1080p. "supporting 50hz and 60hz" just refers to the input signal.

 

Again, you're confusing input signals with a panels native refresh rate. There are literally thousands of sites that cover this topic.

 

http://hometheater.about.com/od/televisionbasics/qt/framevsrefresh.htm

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/refresh-rate2.htm

http://www.rtings.com/info/what-is-the-refresh-rate#24p

http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html

 

 

Actually it does mean they do. since neither is dividable with each other until you get to at least 150hz. They're electronic, they can actually support multiple native refresh rates. 

 

Do you have any idea who horrible TV in Europe would look if all TV's where native 60hz and the signal was 50(which it is)

[n_K]

Actually it does mean they do. since neither is dividable with each other until you get to at least 150hz. They're electronic, they can actually support multiple native refresh rates. 

 

Do you have any idea who horrible TV in Europe would look if all TV's where native 60hz and the signal was 50(which it is)

No they don't. CRT TVs used to be either 50Hz or 60Hz and thus taking one from the US wouldn't work in europe, and vice versa.

LCD on the other hand doesn't work by firing electrons, if the screen updates once, then just pauses for 10 seconds, for those 10 seconds the image will still be there whilst on a CRT, nothing would be displayed.

If you really want to know, open up your TV, take the front plastic off and get the make and model of the LCD panel itself (NOT the PCBs etc.) and look for a datasheet, you'll find it's probably a 60Hz refresh rate because it'd be much more costly, stupid and really incompatible to produce 50Hz and 60Hz LCD panels when there really isn't a need because they operate nothing like CRT screens do.

[giantpotato]

Actually it does mean they do. since neither is dividable with each other until you get to at least 150hz. They're electronic, they can actually support multiple native refresh rates. 

 

Do you have any idea who horrible TV in Europe would look if all TV's where native 60hz and the signal was 50(which it is)

 

I didn't realize 150 was divisible by 60, thanks for pointing that out :/

 

The vast majority of TVs that support both 50hz and 60hz have a panel that runs at 60hz and uses 1:1:1:1:2 pulldown internally to display 50hz content. The quality is no worse than playing a game at 50fps or watching a 50fps video on a 60hz pc monitor. It's watchable but there is still judder, just like there's judder when watching movies at 60hz. There are some high-end TVs that can switch between 50hz and 60hz refresh rates electronically but to say 60hz monitors can display 24fps natively is just plain wrong.

[Ash]

Is the hz the reason some this:

 

Some TVs when you watch a movie, it looks like a movie.

But on some TVs like my friends, it looks so fluid, its looks more like watching real life than a movie. For example, he showed me a bit of Lord of the Rings Fellowship, in the shire when the hobbits were having a party, it actually looked more like a bunch of people in costumes on a set than an actual movie. Same for the scene I watched in Return of the Jedi, the Mon Calamari on Akbar's ship looked more like people in costumes on a stage.

 

Did it look like this because of the hz?

[HawkMan]

I didn't realize 150 was divisible by 60, thanks for pointing that out :/

 

The vast majority of TVs that support both 50hz and 60hz have a panel that runs at 60hz and uses 1:1:1:1:2 pulldown internally to display 50hz content. The quality is no worse than playing a game at 50fps or watching a 50fps video on a 60hz pc monitor. It's watchable but there is still judder, just like there's judder when watching movies at 60hz. There are some high-end TVs that can switch between 50hz and 60hz refresh rates electronically but to say 60hz monitors can display 24fps natively is just plain wrong.

 

I guess all TV's sold in europe are high end then. since they all are 60 minimum, and they play 50hz tv content judder free, because they switch internally to 50hz refresh rate driver. it's not a big change for a tv electronics to add a 50hz driver. 

[HawkMan]

Is the hz the reason some this:

 

Some TVs when you watch a movie, it looks like a movie.

But on some TVs like my friends, it looks so fluid, its looks more like watching real life than a movie. For example, he showed me a bit of Lord of the Rings Fellowship, in the shire when the hobbits were having a party, it actually looked more like a bunch of people in costumes on a set than an actual movie. Same for the scene I watched in Return of the Jedi, the Mon Calamari on Akbar's ship looked more like people in costumes on a stage.

 

Did it look like this because of the hz?

 

Generally high refresh rate tv's with interpolation that makes movement smooth, also tends to make the scenes appear more artificial and CGI like. but in principle yeah. My main problem with interpolation is how it created "wakes" around anything that moves. Happens on everything that moves from characters on a still set to spaceships. But it's particularly noticeable on "inside car" scenes, if you watch one of these on a TV with this effect on, you'll notice that around all the structure of the car and the character that appear in front of the moving background, there appears to big a water like forcefield. it's annoying and ugly and ruins the whole experience. So while it looks smoother I turn it off cause I can't stand the wakes/force fields. .