PS4 and Xbox One resolution / frame rate discussion

[Emn1ty]

I expect the Xbox One DX12 update will improve performance a bit but if the game is hitting 30fps it will be less than a 5fps boost so it's not going to be a night and day difference.  If the game can get to 50fps then maybe the update will allow it to hit 60fps or maybe it will even out some of the peaks on valleys in the performance but it's not going to bring a game that's 30fps to 60fps (unless it was hitting 50+ but the developer capped it at a solid 30 since they couldn't get all the way to 60).  Also it's not going to increase the resolution at all.  900p games aren't going to suddenly go 1080p as that's a much larger jump.

 

This math is horribly flawed. Even if it is a 15% boost in performance, you can't equate that to a number of frames. The 15% boost is relative to what the card can do, not any specific end result. 15% more power doesn't give you 15% more frames, or 15% more resolution. It doesn't work that way since those things are not 1:1 cost on the performance side. It could be less, or more depending on what upping those things cost. I get the feeling 15% more power in the GPU will be rather significant on the fps side, while not so much on the resolution side. I expect to see more games at 900p/60fps with the update and that's really all I want. I could care less about the '1080p' bs going around.

[+Asmodai MVC]

This math is horribly flawed. Even if it is a 15% boost in performance, you can't equate that to a number of frames. The 15% boost is relative to what the card can do, not any specific end result. 15% more power doesn't give you 15% more frames, or 15% more resolution. It doesn't work that way since those things are not 1:1 cost on the performance side. It could be less, or more depending on what upping those things cost. I get the feeling 15% more power in the GPU will be rather significant on the fps side, while not so much on the resolution side. I expect to see more games at 900p/60fps with the update and that's really all I want. I could care less about the '1080p' bs going around.

 

What math is horribly flawed?  You're putting words in my mouth.  The 15% performance boost from ESRAM and the estimated FPS jumps were two different things.  AT NO TIME did I say there would be a corresponding 15% FPS jump.  In fact my examples were both > 15% so I don't even know how you could think I was associated them.  30fps + 5fps = 16.7 % jump and 50fps to 60fps is a 20% jump.  Do you just argue for the sake of arguing?

[George P Global Moderator]

Even if the DX11 version used by the Xbox One is lower level compared to the general DX11 used on PC, it's still got many of the same overhead issues to deal with, specially on the CPU.   DX11 on the PC isn't constrained to one CPU core either, but that first core has to deal with more overhead than the rest of the cores.  While on the Xbox One developers have more control over things I doubt it's to the extent it is with DX12.  The gains might not be as big as on the PC but that doesn't change the fact that a level of performance increases are expected.   The only question is how much you get, we'll know soon enough.

[+Asmodai MVC]

Even if the DX11 version used by the Xbox One is lower level compared to the general DX11 used on PC, it's still got many of the same overhead issues to deal with, specially on the CPU.

No, it doesn't.

Despite this efficiency of code, the consoles simply don

[Emn1ty]

What math is horribly flawed?  You're putting words in my mouth.  The 15% performance boost from ESRAM and the estimated FPS jumps were two different things.  AT NO TIME did I say there would be a corresponding 15% FPS jump.  In fact my examples were both > 15% so I don't even know how you could think I was associated them.  30fps + 5fps = 16.7 % jump and 50fps to 60fps is a 20% jump.  Do you just argue for the sake of arguing?

 

Regardless, a 15% boost to overall power of the GPU would translate to far more than just a <= 15% boost in one area. I imagine using all of that for just FPS would amount to much more than that.

 

It just makes no sense to make claims like what you have claimed before we see it in action. As much as you like to say that 'benchmarks are meaningless' you seem to be ready to throw out arbitrary numbers and guesses about what we will and won't see from DX12. How about instead of putting down invented numbers, we actually wait for the result?

[+Asmodai MVC]

Regardless, a 15% boost to overall power of the GPU would translate to far more than just a <= 15% boost in one area.

Regardless of having the entire premise of my prior post refuted I'm going to go ahead and keep arguing a point no one else was talking about...

I imagine using all of that for just FPS would amount to much more than that.

Well you do have a great imagination. It's just reality you have issues with.

It just makes no sense to make claims like what you have claimed before we see it in action.

Unlike your "I imagine..." claims?

As much as you like to say that 'benchmarks are meaningless'

I don't believe I ever said that either.

How about instead of putting down invented numbers, we actually wait for the result?

How about instead of replying to my posts refuting made up claims I never made you just ignore my posts if they trouble you so?

[Emn1ty]

Regardless of having the entire premise of my prior post refuted I'm going to go ahead and keep arguing a point no one else was talking about...

Well you do have a great imagination. It's just reality you have issues with.

Unlike your "I imagine..." claims?

I don't believe I ever said that either.

How about instead of replying to my posts refuting made up claims I never made you just ignore my posts if they trouble you so?

 

First, whether or not anyone else was talking about a topic has nothing to do with me bringing it up so long as it's relevant. Second, at least I'm not putting absolute numbers into my guessing games as you have done several times. Third, you implied that benchmarks don't represent the end result of these kinds of performance changes (as has been proven time and time again with benchmarks vs. real world use comparisons) but then on the same note go to plant down exact numbers of what you expect to see from DX12. Why is this odd? Well, considering we have absolutely nothing to base these conclusions on aside from inaccurate benchmarks I can safely say you are inventing them. Unless there's something I'm missing?

[Hedon]

 

 

Oh snap! Good catch my friend. lol

 

 

XBox One isn't going to see much of a boost from DX12, especially on the CPU side.  Y

 

Actually it is, and developers have already stated as such.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Oh snap! Good catch my friend. lol

 

 

 

Actually it is, and developers have already stated as such.

 

[Hedon]

http://wccftech.com/phil-spencer-directx-1-xbox-one-hardware-graphics/

 

http://www.kitguru.net/gaming/anton-shilov/directx-12-could-let-all-games-run-at-1080p-on-xbox-one-game-developer/

 

 

Although Microsoft Corp. said last October that its DirectX 12 application programming interface would not dramatically improve performance of its Xbox One game console, some game developers think otherwise. Brad Wardell from Stardock Studios believes that DX12 along with optimizations from game developers can improve performance so significantly that all new games will be able to run at 1920*1080 resolution on Xbox One.

 

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

http://www.kitguru.net/gaming/anton-shilov/directx-12-could-let-all-games-run-at-1080p-on-xbox-one-game-developer/

 

Brad doesn't even say that in the interview. Think kitguru need to learn how to read

 

Brad Wardell from Stardock Studios believes that DX12 along with optimizations from game developers can improve performance so significantly that all new games will be able to run at 1920*1080 resolution on Xbox One.

 

 

Nowhere does he say that here - http://gamingbolt.com/dx12-should-remedy-the-resolution-issue-on-the-xbox-one-esram-to-receive-new-api

[Hedon]

Brad doesn't even say that in the interview. Think kitguru need to learn how to read

 

 

Nowhere does he say that here - http://gamingbolt.com/dx12-should-remedy-the-resolution-issue-on-the-xbox-one-esram-to-receive-new-api

 

But he does say it is a substantial improvement for Xbox One:

 

 

Brad Wardell and his team at Stardock Studios are working on Ashes of Singularity, one of the first games that will be supporting DirectX 12. Wardell has been pretty vocal regarding his support for DirectX 12 in the past, and rightly so given the number of performance improvements that the new API offers.

 

Gamingbolt

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

But he does:

 

 

Other developers have also praised the improvements coming to Xbox One as well.

 

No Kvally, "substantial benefit" is not what I bolded.

 

I'm sure if Brad wanted he'd stop by here, given the Stardock and Neowin alliance, but it's not hard to read the article and see nowhere did he say all Xbox One games will be 1080p due to DirectX 12. It would be very stupid to commit to such a quote, given what Spencer has said about hardware not changing, it isn't, and the track record of this generation so far. Not even the PS4 does 1080p on EVERY game. BF4/BF Hardline.

[Hedon]

No Kvally, "substantial benefit" is not what I bolded.

 

I'm sure if Brad wanted he'd stop by here, given the Stardock and Neowin alliance, but it's not hard to read the article and see nowhere did he say all Xbox One games will be 1080p due to DirectX 12. It would be very stupid to commit to such a quote, given what Spencer has said about hardware not changing, it isn't, and the track record of this generation so far. Not even the PS4 does 1080p on EVERY game. BF4/BF Hardline.

 

I was talking about DirectX 12 being a substantial benefit, where as the person I quoted earlier in the thread said it would not. At no time did I ever say that every Xbox One game would be 1080p 60fps. Back to my original reply and quote...

 

Actually it is, and developers have already stated as such.

 

Glad we got that cleared up.

[+Asmodai MVC]

Actually it is, and developers have already stated as such.

No they haven't as Audioboxer pointed out.

Brad does say "substantial improvement" in the quote but 15% (Brad's number from a tweet about the PIX ESRAM demo, not mine) could easily be considered "substantial".

Furthermore the red sentence in the quote:

"So in DirectX12 they actually threw it away, they threw away the crappy one in DirectX11 and they

[Hedon]

No they haven't as Audioboxer pointed out.

Brad does say "substantial improvement" in the quote but 15% (Brad's number from a tweet about the PIX ESRAM demo, not mine) could easily be considered "substantial".

Furthermore the red sentence in the quote:

"So in DirectX12 they actually threw it away, they threw away the crappy one in DirectX11 and they

[+Asmodai MVC]

So you are just confirming what I (and Brad) said. Thank you.

I'm confirming what I said that you replied to out of context and seemed indicate was incorrect.

 

My recent posts were in reply to George P who stated "the changes to the API on the CPU side specifically are what help with better frame rates."

where I pointed out that the major CPU side improvements of DX12 don't really apply to the Xbox One because consoles already don't suffer from the draw call issues PCs do.

I then brought up the ESRAM improvements and Brad's 15% number myself so in no way did I ever say anything contrary to that.

You took my "XBox One isn't going to see much of a boost from DX12, especially on the CPU side." statement completely out of context.

You completely ignored the "especially on the CPU side" part and posted as evidence information about the very ESRAM improvements I'd already mentioned.  Thank you for confirming what I (and Brad) said.

Furthermore the "isn't going to see much of a boost" from me was in comparison to the DX12 boost PCs will see due to the draw calls main thread CPU issue being resolved (which doesn't exist on consoles)

From my first post on the topic I've used examples ranging from 15-20% boost so I no way have I been saying that wasn't going to happen but that pales in comparison to the boost PC games are going to get from DX12.

[Hedon]

 

From my first post on the topic I've used examples ranging from 15-20% boost so I no way have I been saying that wasn't going to happen but that pales in comparison to the boost PC games are going to get from DX12.

Ok, I see what you were trying to say.

[Hedon]

A exec says he wants all holiday 2016 Frostbite games to have a minimum spec of windows 10/dx12. Says he knows it is an aggressive step but the benefits are worth it.
Asked wether it will benefit Xbox One games he says "Yes".

 

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[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

A exec says he wants all holiday 2016 Frostbite games to have a minimum spec of windows 10/dx12. Says he knows it is an aggressive step but the benefits are worth it.

Asked wether it will benefit Xbox One games he says "Yes".

 

 

Better check his linkedin profile to see if he's worked for Microsoft before!

[+Asmodai MVC]

A exec says he wants all holiday 2016 Frostbite games to have a minimum spec of windows 10/dx12. Says he knows it is an aggressive step but the benefits are worth it.

Asked wether it will benefit Xbox One games he says "Yes".

 

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that DX12 will provide SOME boost to Xbox One games.  The Xbox One has been getting regular updates to it's version of DirectX though since launch so that's not at all unusual.  The Xbox One APIs are contantly being tweaked they don't just update with a new release of DX so the DX12 update isn't much bigger of a deal in terms of performance than any other XDK update. (It's a bigger deal in ease of portability between Windows and Xbox One though).

 

Here is a rundown of some of the frequent changes the Xbox One has already gone through: (as of Jan. 11 2015)

The evolution of Xbox One - as told by the SDK leak

 

This evolution of the XDK will likely continue after the DX12 release as well (independent of DX12 updates) and Sony is no doubt making similar updates to the PS4 APIs (GNM, GNMX) behind the scenes.  This is normal for any console as the API's continue to be improved and refined over the life of the console.  We only know more about the MS one because it was leaked and Sony's wasn't.

[1337ish]

Better check his linkedin profile to see if he's worked for Microsoft before!

He should, it is relevant.

[Hedon]

I don't think anyone is disputing that DX12 will provide SOME boost to Xbox One games.  The Xbox One has been getting regular updates to it's version of DirectX though since launch so that's not at all unusual.  The Xbox One APIs are contantly being tweaked they don't just update with a new release of DX so the DX12 update isn't much bigger of a deal in terms of performance than any other XDK update. (It's a bigger deal in ease of portability between Windows and Xbox One though).

 

Here is a rundown of some of the frequent changes the Xbox One has already gone through: (as of Jan. 11 2015)

The evolution of Xbox One - as told by the SDK leak

 

This evolution of the XDK will likely continue after the DX12 release as well (independent of DX12 updates) and Sony is no doubt making similar updates to the PS4 APIs (GNM, GNMX) behind the scenes.  This is normal for any console as the API's continue to be improved and refined over the life of the console.  We only know more about the MS one because it was leaked and Sony's wasn't.

 

Indeed. In fact, it was the makers of Ride that stated that these SDK's are what got their game to 1080p on the Xbox One, which was going to be 900p. Glad the keep making improvements, and I am happy to hear that developers are finding DirectX 12 to also substantially benefit the console as well. It really is a win win for gamers.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Project Cars 1080/60 PS4,900/60 Xbox One

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2015/04/14/project-cars-ps4-runs-at-1080p60fps-xbox-one-version-is-900p60fps/

[+Asmodai MVC]

Looks like the DmC AF issue has been patched.

 

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