PS4 and Xbox One resolution / frame rate discussion

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Topic Cleaned. May I remind some of you...

• Do not flame any member directly or indirectly, no matter how right or wrong you believe that member to be.
• If somebody does flame you, report it. Do not reply to it in any way. Feeding the flames does not help, and can result in disciplinary actions taken toward you as well as the member that flamed you.
• Trolling will be moderated just as heavily as flaming. Trolling on a certain company or console will not be tolerated at all. Jumping in a thread just to say, "Microsoft sucks!" or, "Sony sucks!" etc., will result in disciplinary actions taken against you. Trolling simply creates a more hostile atmosphere and will almost always result in flaming and arguments.
• Do not respond to trolling. You should simply report any post you believe to be trolling. Responding to any trolling posts also can result in disciplinary actions taken toward you as well as the member who was trolling to begin with.
• If a thread has simply degraded into a full-blown argument rather than a debate (read: unsubstantiated attacks against other members rather than a calm discussion between members with different viewpoints), do not participate. Even if you want to tell those participating in the argument to stop, do not do it. Responding in any way to argumentative posts will only make it worse, and, once again, may result in disciplinary actions taken toward you as well. Leave the argument alone and simply report it.
• If you're trying to debate with somebody that seems to have an opinion based on skewed or even completely incorrect information, just let it go. You don't always need to be found correct, and you won't always be agreed with by everybody. Frankly, that will never happen, especially in such a large community like we have here at Neowin. People have different viewpoints on all matters, no matter what the facts really are.

 

All of the above rules have been broken in some fashion in the last day from both sides. Needless to say, it stops now. It's pathetic how some of you act when this discussion is raised or in the news. If it doesn't stop I will simply remove you from participating in the topic while those who can discuss it civilly will continue to do so. Further, if you do report something, at least don't involve yourself in the mess before or after. It really doesn't do you any favours.

[XorpiZ]

What's your reasoning behind this? I don't see how any of them saying DX12 is amazeballs would slow down sales since even cards 2 generations old support it.

 

I seem to remember reading something about the newest card not officially supporting all DX12 features. I'll see if I can find the link for you.

[1337ish]

I seem to remember reading something about the newest card not officially supporting all DX12 features. I'll see if I can find the link for you.

 

I actually had seen similar mentions from MS themselves. I am kinda expecting a DX10 debacle again. I think older cards will support DX12, just not full feature set.

We will all find out in July I guess when w10 is rumoured to go RTM.

[George P Global Moderator]

I actually had seen similar mentions from MS themselves. I am kinda expecting a DX10 debacle again. I think older cards will support DX12, just not full feature set.

We will all find out in July I guess when w10 is rumoured to go RTM.

 

As with anything hardware related the older cards will not support newer hardware based features, those need new GPUs to work, DX12 can't magically bring those features to older cards.  So with a older card while you get API gains, because that's software, new DX12 specific hardware features will need a new card.

[1337ish]

As with anything hardware related the older cards will not support newer hardware based features, those need new GPUs to work, DX12 can't magically bring those features to older cards.  So with a older card while you get API gains, because that's software, new DX12 specific hardware features will need a new card.

 

Yes completely correct, I just hate the way how all are saying "buy our cardz they iz dx12 lolz" when the spec isnt out in public yet. I am waiting to buy my next upgrade after its RTM in case they pop a 10.1 on us again.

[XorpiZ]

As with anything hardware related the older cards will not support newer hardware based features, those need new GPUs to work, DX12 can't magically bring those features to older cards.  So with a older card while you get API gains, because that's software, new DX12 specific hardware features will need a new card.

The GPU in the XB1 should support all the features though, especially considering the quote "The XB1 team knew what the DX12 team was doing"... or something like it

[1337ish]

The GPU in the XB1 should support all the features though, especially considering the quote "The XB1 team knew what the DX12 team was doing"... or something like it

We can hope...

[+Asmodai MVC]

The GPU in the XB1 should support all the features though, especially considering the quote "The XB1 team knew what the DX12 team was doing"... or something like it

 

It does not.

DX12 is broken into feature levels:

11_0: nVidia Fermi/Kepler based GPUs

11_1: nVidia Maxwell Gen 1 based GPUs, AMD GCN 1.0 GPUs, Intel Haswell and Broadwell based GPUs

12_0: AMD GCN 1.1/1.2 (includes Xbox One and PS4), Intel Skylake GPUs

12_1: nVidia Maxwell Gen 2 (GeForce 900 series)

 

As you can see the console GPUs are on the third of four tiers so they support quite a bit of the features but not ALL of them.

 

It does exceed 12_0 feature level slightly in that even GCN 1.0 supports Resource Binding Tier 3 (the highest level) even though only Tier 2 support is required for feature level 12_0 but it does not support EVERYTHING required for feature level 12_1.

[XorpiZ]

It does not.

DX12 is broken into feature levels:

11_0: nVidia Fermi/Kepler based GPUs

11_1: nVidia Maxwell Gen 1 based GPUs, AMD GCN 1.0 GPUs, Intel Haswell and Broadwell based GPUs

12_0: AMD GCN 1.1/1.2 (includes Xbox One and PS4), Intel Skylake GPUs

12_1: nVidia Maxwell Gen 2 (GeForce 900 series)

 

As you can see the console GPUs are on the third of four tiers so they support quite a bit of the features but not ALL of them.

 

It does exceed 12_0 feature level slightly in that even GCN 1.0 supports Resource Binding Tier 3 (the highest level) even though only Tier 2 support is required for feature level 12_0 but it does not support EVERYTHING required for feature level 12_1.

 

I know that GCN 1.2 doesn't support 12.1, but it's probable that AMD and MS knew what 12.1 was and made support for it.

[+Asmodai MVC]

it's probable that AMD and MS knew what 12.1 was and made support for it.

I wouldn't say it's probable but sure stranger things have happened.  I wouldn't hold my breath on that though but we'll see.  Supporting 12_0 with full tier 3 resource binding isn't a bad thing though.

[Luc2k]

I seem to remember reading something about the newest card not officially supporting all DX12 features. I'll see if I can find the link for you.

It's true about different feature level support, however, I highly doubt that would cause sales to "grind to a halt for months" as you've put it when the performance advantage will be there anyway for the older cards. Performance from lower API overhead is DX12's main feature, of course.

 

GPU sales are already slow right now (anecdotal evidence), but it's not because people are waiting for GPUs that support DX12's highest feature level. No, the reason for that (I'm in the same boat) is the raw power of the upcoming 3xx series from AMD and cards like the 980 Ti or 960 Ti from the Nvidia camp.

[+Asmodai MVC]

It's true about different feature level support, however, I highly doubt that would cause sales to "grind to a halt for months" as you've put it when the performance advantage will be there anyway for the older cards. Performance from lower API overhead is DX12's main feature, of course.

 

GPU sales are already slow right now (anecdotal evidence), but it's not because people are waiting for GPUs that support DX12's highest feature level. No, the reason for that (I'm in the same boat) is the raw power of the upcoming 3xx series from AMD and cards like the 980 Ti or 960 Ti from the Nvidia camp.

 

There's also been a slow down in GPUs because the fabs have had issues making high performance silicon on shrinking process nodes.

GPUs have been stuck on 28nm for a while now.  In contrast low power chips used in mobile devices went from 28nm to 20nm and the Galaxy S6 is at 14nm (FinFET).

It appears both AMD and nVidia are going to skip 20nm and go straight to 14nm (Samsung/GlobalFoundries) or 16nm (TSMC).

[XorpiZ]

It's true about different feature level support, however, I highly doubt that would cause sales to "grind to a halt for months" as you've put it when the performance advantage will be there anyway for the older cards. Performance from lower API overhead is DX12's main feature, of course.

 

GPU sales are already slow right now (anecdotal evidence), but it's not because people are waiting for GPUs that support DX12's highest feature level. No, the reason for that (I'm in the same boat) is the raw power of the upcoming 3xx series from AMD and cards like the 980 Ti or 960 Ti from the Nvidia camp.

 

You're right. It also seems that Maxwell 2 does indeed support all the new features, so my post can be ignored :-)

[Hedon]

Nice to see more and more developers confirming this:

 

PS4 And Xbox One Performance Is Nearly Identical, Cloud Can Help Xbox One In Certain Ways: Dev
Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/ps4-and-xbox-one-performance-is-nearly-identical-cloud-can-help-xbox-one-in-certain-ways-dev#c8zTO0qSvOMVuzvC.99

 

[wakjak]

Nice to see more and more developers confirming this:

 

PS4 And Xbox One Performance Is Nearly Identical, Cloud Can Help Xbox One In Certain Ways: Dev

Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/ps4-and-xbox-one-performance-is-nearly-identical-cloud-can-help-xbox-one-in-certain-ways-dev#c8zTO0qSvOMVuzvC.99

 

[Hedon]

We know those statements to be patently false. PS4 pulls ahead in nearly everything. 1080p list of games is far greater on PS4.

But they are patently true.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Nice to see more and more developers confirming this:

 

PS4 And Xbox One Performance Is Nearly Identical, Cloud Can Help Xbox One In Certain Ways: Dev

Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/ps4-and-xbox-one-performance-is-nearly-identical-cloud-can-help-xbox-one-in-certain-ways-dev#c8zTO0qSvOMVuzvC.99

 

[theyarecomingforyou]

Nice to see more and more developers confirming this:

 

PS4 And Xbox One Performance Is Nearly Identical, Cloud Can Help Xbox One In Certain Ways: Dev

Read more at http://gamingbolt.com/ps4-and-xbox-one-performance-is-nearly-identical-cloud-can-help-xbox-one-in-certain-ways-dev#c8zTO0qSvOMVuzvC.99

 

[Hedon]

It's strange how AAA developers with the most talented people in the business struggle to achieve parity between the PS4 and XB1 yet a random indie developer no-one has ever heard of that produced a graphically untaxing game has concluded that they're 'nearly identical'. The claim that cloud computing can "help in certain ways" is marketing speak for "isn't practical outside of tech demos". It's also worth pointing out that the founder of the studio (also the only employee) worked at 38 Studios, which famously collapsed owning millions of dollars to Rhode Island.

In other words it's a highly questionable statement from a highly questionable developer responsible for an utterly irrelevant game. You should make sure it's a reputable source before sharing it.

It's strange to find quarterback arm chair gamers on forums know more than this developer and other AAA developers who have said the same thing over and over. I find it odd that people that know more about the developers developing games on the consoles are not developing the games. I bet they would like to know how you can build the games better. Have you reached out to these developers that have struggled building games like this dev or the star dock dev or hideo to lend them a helping hand?

Glad the proof keeps getting confirmed by more and more developers. Also glad DX12 is helping gamers and developers worldwide.

900p to 1080p is something like a 44% increase in pixels. I mean you can say whatever you want in an interview, but figures don't lie Anyway, I'm pretty sure Tower of Guns isn't something that needs to worry about pushing hardware, not simply because it's an indie title, but because it's not graphically taxing.

You don't really see this kind of "they're really kind of the same, but different" chat in the PC field. If a Nvidia card benchmarks better than an AMD card, people just say it how it is.

And 1080p =1080p with 0% difference. Which both consoles do. Not sure of your point?

How many Xbox One games and PS4 games have you developed to contradict what developers and hardware techs are saying?

[theyarecomingforyou]

It's strange to find quarterback arm chair gamers on forums know more than this developer and other AAA developers who have said the same thing over and over. I find it odd that people that know more about the developers developing games on the consoles are not developing the games. I bet they would like how you can build the games better. Have you reached out to these developers that have struggled building games like this dev or the star dock dev or hideo to lend them a helping hand?

Ad hominem. One doesn't have to be an expert in order to pass judgement - one just has to be able to make informed decisions based on the evidence. You posted an uncredible source and I pointed that out.

 

And 1080p =1080p with 0% difference. Which both consoles do. Not sure of your point?

You know very well they point they were making. There are a large number of games on XB1 that run at a lower resolution that the PS4 - that is a fact. The reality is that developers have found the XB1 to be lacking in performance and unable to achieve parity with the PS4, sometimes to a substantial degree. The difference between 900p and 1080p is quite substantial, much more than the performance improvements touted with DX12.

 

How many Xbox One games and PS4 games have you developed to contradict what developers and hardware techs are saying?

Again with the ad hominem. It doesn't matter what developers and hardware techs claim - what matters is the end result. If games run better on the PS4 then it really doesn't matter whether a random developer claims there is no difference, as the evidence demonstrates otherwise. Last generation it was claimed that the PS3 had better hardware yet most games ran better on the X360.

 

I don't own either console and have no interest in buying one. My interest is in how the performance of next-gen consoles impacts PC gaming, as multiplatform development has to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to hardware. As someone with no stake in the debate it's clear that the PS4 is the more powerful console and that the XB1 has struggled to hit 1080p in too many games - that is objectively true.

[Hedon]

Ad hominem. One doesn't have to be an expert in order to pass judgement - one just has to be able to make informed decisions based on the evidence. You posted an uncredible source and I pointed that out.

 

 

You know very well they point they were making. There are a large number of games on XB1 that run at a lower resolution that the PS4 - that is a fact. The reality is that developers have found the XB1 to be lacking in performance and unable to achieve parity with the PS4, sometimes to a substantial degree. The difference between 900p and 1080p is quite substantial, much more than the performance improvements touted with DX12.

 

 

Again with the ad hominem. It doesn't matter what developers and hardware techs claim - what matters is the end result. If games run better on the PS4 then it really doesn't matter whether a random developer claims there is no difference, as the evidence demonstrates otherwise. Last generation it was claimed that the PS3 had better hardware yet most games ran better on the X360.

 

I don't own either console and have no interest in buying one. My interest is in how the performance of next-gen consoles impacts PC gaming, as multiplatform development has to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to hardware. As someone with no stake in the debate it's clear that the PS4 is the more powerful console and that the XB1 has struggled to hit 1080p in too many games - that is objectively true.

Well, your opinion is duly noted. Developers state otherwise. We trust developers before we trust your opinion.

 

Regarding 1080p, the majority of games on the Xbox One are 1080p, and the performance continues to improve with each SDK release, and now even more so with DX12 coming. 

 

Great news for gamers worldwide. Can't complain about that. Ad hominem ad hominem ad hominem.

[XorpiZ]

In other words it's a highly questionable statement from a highly questionable developer responsible for an utterly irrelevant game. You should make sure it's a reputable source before sharing it.

 

It's sad to see how you call out everyone that disagrees with you. One developer is "highly questionable" and another has huge issues with his character, apparantly.

 

You should with the ad hominem attacks, really, especially when you're accusing Kvally of using them.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Well, your opinion is duly noted. Developers state otherwise. We trust developers before we trust your opinion.

Trust has to be earned, not blindly given. I'm not asking people to trust my position, I'm just pointing out the facts so that they can come to their own conclusion. Terrible Posture Games

[XorpiZ]

Trust has to be earned, not blindly given. I'm not asking people to trust my position, I'm just pointing out the facts so that they can come to their own conclusion. Terrible Posture Games

[wakjak]

2. It wasn't Joe Mirabello who made the claim. It was a guy named Jakub Mikyska from Grip Games.

 

 

 

That's even worse. They make shovelware games.