PS4 and Xbox One resolution / frame rate discussion

[George P Global Moderator]

 

Doesnt that preclude the possibility of kernel updates and other enhancements they decided to roll into the new OS along with XDK update which could require extensive testing. I would be surprised if the only enhancement in NXE is a new dashboard and I wouldnt expect dev's to target it until its live for all.

It's not just a new dash, it's a whole OS upgrade, you can tell it's different just from how faster this boots up compared to the original, Windows 8.1 based, OS.    There's any number of kernel to API to DX changes going on, it's not just a new UI layout.

As far as DX versions, the Xbox One uses 11.X which is a superset of 11.2 with some of, but not all of, the features found in DX12.   To say the Xbox One is already running DX12 would be false, it's running more of a half-way version of it, a subset.    While the improvements from 12 on the XB1 aren't going to be huge, no one said that there isn't going to be any at all, the only question is to what degree, those saying not to expect any and that DX12 on the XB1 isn't going to make a difference at all, are guessing, or maybe even hoping in some cases.    How about we wait and see what the future brings starting next year when games will start to target DX12 specifically.

[+Asmodai MVC]

Just not true. DX12 is not fully implemented in the Xbox One, and we won't see our first DX12 game until Fable Legends. Phil Spencer has already confirmed that there will be improvements on the Xbox One once this is released on the Xbox One. He talked about it at the Inner Circle podcast:

 

It is true but you took what I said and jumped to a ridiculous extreme conclusion.  I didn't say DX12 is "fully implemented" in the Xbox One.  In fact I gave specific examples of DX12 features NOT in the XDK (VR, mobile enhancements, support for GPU capabilities that aren't even on the Xbox One/PS4's Radeon 7000 series level hardware, etc.)  Furthermore I didn't say it wouldn't do ANYTHING to help performance.  Again, I even gave a specific Xbox One example of where it WILL see a performance boost and that was the new ESRAM API.  The most significant performance enhancement of DX12 however comes from command lists and the ability to more effectively use all the cores in the CPU instead of one core serving as a bottleneck to the others as is the case in DX11.  That "new" feature of DX12 is already in the Xbox One XDK and has been for a long time.  The XDK version is hardware specific though (AMD GCN) and the DX12 version is written so it will work on hardware from different OEMS (intel, nVidia, AMD, etc.)  So again, even though the XDK has the feature it is NOT DX12 but Xbox One game developers could already do what DX12 does.  Asynchronous Compute is the same deal.  It's been in the XDK for a while but it's a big thing with DX12 for PCs.  There was just that big stink on if nVidia cards even support Asynchronous Compute so it's brand new to PCs but Xbox One already does it.

Fable Legends may be the first DX12 game (I thought that was Ashes of the Singularity?) but that's because it's for PC as well.  They can't use the XDK extensions (which are AMD GCN specific) to DirectX 11 and release it on PC because the PC DX doesn't have them.  If they make it for DX12 they can use one API on both the Xbox One and PC so that's a big deal for the games that are being developed for more than just Xbox One.  Halo 5 didn't launch on PC though (and may or many not ever come to PC) so they COULD use the XDK extentions that enable hardware specific DX12-like capabilities.  For the most part DX12 just makes console games more portable to PCs (it brings those hardware specific enhancements to PC in a non-hardware specific way) not necessarily significantly faster.  So it's a big deal for multi-platform titles, not so much for console exclusives like Halo 5 (though AGAIN, I'm NOT saying it won't have ANY performance increase).

[vcfan]

The graphics API in the Xbox One NOW is NOT "regular DX11".

you couldnt be more wrong. its not even debatable. the xdks are out there. its vanilla dx11 plus the xbox extensions.

[+Asmodai MVC]

you couldnt be more wrong. its not even debatable. the xdks are out there. its vanilla dx11 plus the xbox extensions.

We aren't even saying anything different.

"plus xbox extensions" != "vanilla dx11"

[+Asmodai MVC]

Here's another article:

Metro Redux: what it's really like to develop for PS4 and Xbox One

That one's also old, published in Aug. of 2014.  Since people don't seem to want to read the source articles allow me to quote:

Digital Foundry: DirectX 11 vs GNMX vs GNM - what's your take on the strengths and weakness of the APIs available to developers with Xbox One and PlayStation 4? Closer to launch there were some complaints about XO driver performance and CPU overhead on GNMX.

Oles Shishkovstov: Let's put it that way - we have seen scenarios where a single CPU core was fully loaded just by issuing draw-calls on Xbox One (and that's surely on the 'mono' driver with several fast-path calls utilised). Then, the same scenario on PS4, it was actually difficult to find those draw-calls in the profile graphs, because they are using almost no time and are barely visible as a result.

In general - I don't really get why they choose DX11 as a starting point for the console. It's a console! Why care about some legacy stuff at all? On PS4, most GPU commands are just a few DWORDs written into the command buffer, let's say just a few CPU clock cycles. On Xbox One it easily could be one million times slower because of all the bookkeeping the API does.

But Microsoft is not sleeping, really. Each XDK that has been released both before and after the Xbox One launch has brought faster and faster draw-calls to the table. They added tons of features just to work around limitations of the DX11 API model. They even made a DX12/GNM style do-it-yourself API available - although we didn't ship with it on Redux due to time constraints.

 

Again the performance issues he talks about have long since been solved by the "plus xbox extensions" that have been added by the many XDK updates that have been released.  There have been several XDK updates since this article was written as well (again, it's from Aug. 2014 so it's over a year old.) and as the developer notes "They even made a DX12/GNM style do-it-yourself API available".  That API does the vast majority of what DX12 does on PC only it does it in a hardware specific way for the Xbox One.

Yes, DX11 was the starting point for the Xbox One.  That's something developers such as this one actually COMPLAINED about: "In general - I don't really get why they choose DX11 as a starting point for the console. It's a console! Why care about some legacy stuff at all?"  Through many XDK updates however they've moved way beyond that (again the performance issues he complains about have long since been solved via these XDK updates).  For those that don't know GNM is the name of the low level DX12-like API that the PS4 shipped with.  GNMX is a DX11 like set of wrappers on top of GNM to make it easier for developers.

[+Asmodai MVC]

Edge of Eternity CEO: PS4 1080P/XB1 720P, Worried About XB1 Version

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Fallout 4

All things put into perspective, Fallout 4 does hold 30fps as a general rule, but drops are noticeable. For example, moving between major city areas is a particular strain on the engine, causing PS4 and Xbox One to drop to 20fps in matching spots on the map. Like clockwork, each platform lurches downward for a spell when passing a threshold in the environment - suggesting assets are being decompressed on the fly for the next location. 30fps is restored relatively quickly on arriving at the next spot, and it's business as usual from there. However it's not an ideal setup when these connecting areas are filled with enemies, and controller response suddenly takes a hit - though PS4 holds a frame-rate advantage in matching runs.

On top of this, Xbox One is unique in its suffering of a stuttering issue, halting the game experience for up to a second during play. It's a glaring hitch downward, and matching runs to the gates of Diamond City shows Xbox One dropping to a record 0fps (zero) while PS4 turns the same corner at 28fps. Each has their blips, but having tested two separate Xbox One and PS4 consoles, the results are always the same across the world at large; we get sizeable stutters on Microsoft's console that aren't present on PS4.

For now though, evidence so far suggests those buying Fallout 4 on console should get an overall smoother experience from PS4. It's far from perfect, and we have a suspicion re-tests will be due once each machine receives new patches down the line. As ever, we'll update as new information comes in. Meanwhile, for those with PC as their platform of choice, all the signs look good for a smooth experience even on budget kit. We're currently putting together an in-depth guide to settings tweaks and recommended setups, so expect that in the next couple of days.

 

Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2015-10-13-the-witcher-3-wraith-from-the-painting-iris-greatest-fear-olgierd-3696

Damn, hitting 0FPS is some Skyrim PS3 level of optimization.

Crazy to think this is what they cook up when F4 has the marketing deal with MS.

[Hedon]

I bet that gets patched up soon.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Fallout 4 has pretty dated graphics, so it's inexcusable to have such performance issues. Bethesda really needs to start from scratch, as the Creation Engine hasn't held up well at all. Drops to zero FPS on XB1 is absolutely unacceptable and not all of that can be blamed on the XB1's inferior hardware. Do you think we'll see a Arkham Knight style situation where they pull the game and issue refunds or will they just palm people off with promises of patches?

[+Asmodai MVC]

Fallout 4 has pretty dated graphics, so it's inexcusable to have such performance issues. Bethesda really needs to start from scratch, as the Creation Engine hasn't held up well at all. Drops to zero FPS on XB1 is absolutely unacceptable and not all of that can be blamed on the XB1's inferior hardware. Do you think we'll see a Arkham Knight style situation where they pull the game and issue refunds or will they just palm people off with promises of patches?

Bethesda develops new engines as part of the Elder Scrolls game development.  The Fallout series piggybacks on the prior Elder Scrolls game so Fallout 3 used the same engine as Elder Scroll IV: Oblivion and Fallout 4 uses the same engine as Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.  Now obviously they tweak the engine here and there between Elder Scrolls and Fallout games but it's not a radical redesign.  You'll almost certainly get a new engine with Elder Scrolls VI and then Fallout 5 will use whatever that is.  The current engine was fundamentally designed to run Skyrim on the Xbox 360 (and nominally on the PS3 though that didn't go so well) so it IS a dated engine on the PS4, Xbox One.  That said these games have A LOT of world simulation going on as huge open world games and the console CPUs are extremely weak by PC standards so it may well be that the hiccups are due to CPU bottlenecks and not GPU.

I agree though dropping to zero FPS is unacceptable, especially on the platform they have a marketing partnership with.  I really hope they get a patch out for Xbox One players ASAP but I seriously doubt any refunds are going to be issued or the game is going to be pulled over this.  My guess is tons of Xbox One players are going to buy the game, 0 FPS and all, so it's not really going to be a big deal for them sales wise at all.  If it doesn't effect the bottom line in any significant way they aren't going to change course on it.  Heck Bethesda games are legendary for their launch bugs... I love them but it's not exactly unexpected from them.

 

[President Devil]

It's not just a new dash, it's a whole OS upgrade, you can tell it's different just from how faster this boots up compared to the original, Windows 8.1 based, OS.    There's any number of kernel to API to DX changes going on, it's not just a new UI layout.

As far as DX versions, the Xbox One uses 11.X which is a superset of 11.2 with some of, but not all of, the features found in DX12.   To say the Xbox One is already running DX12 would be false, it's running more of a half-way version of it, a subset.    While the improvements from 12 on the XB1 aren't going to be huge, no one said that there isn't going to be any at all, the only question is to what degree, those saying not to expect any and that DX12 on the XB1 isn't going to make a difference at all, are guessing, or maybe even hoping in some cases.    How about we wait and see what the future brings starting next year when games will start to target DX12 specifically.

It wasn't even 8.1 based it was 8.0 based according to the build numbering I've seen.

[LaP]

 

 

 

Is it me or the blacks are still a little bit too black on the xbox one?

Edited November 9, 2015 by LaP

[Hedon]

Did the blue car on the Xbox One version get blown-up prior to that footage?

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Is it me or the blacks are still a little bit too black on the xbox one?

Probably crushing blacks with incorrect settings. IIRC from the 360 it was narrow and wide settings or something. On the PS3/PS4 it is RGB limited or full.

[DrunknMunky Veteran]

Glad I bought the PS4 version. Hope they get a patch out soon for the frame drops, though!

[soniqstylz]

Bethesda develops new engines as part of the Elder Scrolls game development.  The Fallout series piggybacks on the prior Elder Scrolls game so Fallout 3 used the same engine as Elder Scroll IV: Oblivion and Fallout 4 uses the same engine as Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim.  Now obviously they tweak the engine here and there between Elder Scrolls and Fallout games but it's not a radical redesign.  You'll almost certainly get a new engine with Elder Scrolls VI and then Fallout 5 will use whatever that is.  The current engine was fundamentally designed to run Skyrim on the Xbox 360 (and nominally on the PS3 though that didn't go so well) so it IS a dated engine on the PS4, Xbox One.  That said these games have A LOT of world simulation going on as huge open world games and the console CPUs are extremely weak by PC standards so it may well be that the hiccups are due to CPU bottlenecks and not GPU.

I agree though dropping to zero FPS is unacceptable, especially on the platform they have a marketing partnership with.  I really hope they get a patch out for Xbox One players ASAP but I seriously doubt any refunds are going to be issued or the game is going to be pulled over this.  My guess is tons of Xbox One players are going to buy the game, 0 FPS and all, so it's not really going to be a big deal for them sales wise at all.  If it doesn't effect the bottom line in any significant way they aren't going to change course on it.  Heck Bethesda games are legendary for their launch bugs... I love them but it's not exactly unexpected from them.

 

Maybe Fallout 3 will run better.

[soniqstylz]

Fallout 4 has pretty dated graphics, so it's inexcusable to have such performance issues. Bethesda really needs to start from scratch, as the Creation Engine hasn't held up well at all. Drops to zero FPS on XB1 is absolutely unacceptable and not all of that can be blamed on the XB1's inferior hardware. Do you think we'll see a Arkham Knight style situation where they pull the game and issue refunds or will they just palm people off with promises of patches?

 

 

 

[George P Global Moderator]

I saw a post saying the PC version is buggy, though I didn't read it in detail, that 0fps hiccup looks like a bug, it'll get patched I'm sure, one thing is for sure, any really big open world games are not going to be at their best on either system. Best to play on a PC if you can, it's where I plan to play the witcher 3 when I get around to it since the console versions are subpar.

[theyarecomingforyou]

I saw a post saying the PC version is buggy, though I didn't read it in detail, that 0fps hiccup looks like a bug, it'll get patched I'm sure, one thing is for sure, any really big open world games are not going to be at their best on either system. Best to play on a PC if you can, it's where I plan to play the witcher 3 when I get around to it since the console versions are subpart.

I've been reading pretty negative stuff on PC. There's no SLI support, mouse acceleration is enabled by default, there is a framerate cap of 60fps, it doesn't support 21:9 resolution, there's no FOV slider, the textures are terrible (all versions), etc. It seems a bit rushed.

[President Devil]

 

I've been reading pretty negative stuff on PC. There's no SLI support, mouse acceleration is enabled by default, there is a framerate cap of 60fps, it doesn't support 21:9 resolution, there's no FOV slider, the textures are terrible (all versions), etc. It seems a bit rushed.

It's true, nonetheless it's been running well for me and I'm glad I bought the PC version, 20fps is a joke.

[George P Global Moderator]

I've been reading pretty negative stuff on PC. There's no SLI support, mouse acceleration is enabled by default, there is a framerate cap of 60fps, it doesn't support 21:9 resolution, there's no FOV slider, the textures are terrible (all versions), etc. It seems a bit rushed.

Shame, but I'm in no rush to play it and I skipped 3, maybe by the time I have a chance they'll have fixed the issues.

[LaP]

I've been reading pretty negative stuff on PC. There's no SLI support, mouse acceleration is enabled by default, there is a framerate cap of 60fps, it doesn't support 21:9 resolution, there's no FOV slider, the textures are terrible (all versions), etc. It seems a bit rushed.

Luckily it's Bethesda so the community will do the job for them again.

And again i'll wait to buy it at 20$. Bethesda is one of the companies i don't trust enough to pay the full price for one of their game.

[Emn1ty]

Luckily it's Bethesda so the community will do the job for them again.

And again i'll wait to buy it at 20$. Bethesda is one of the companies i don't trust enough to pay the full price for one of their game.

I pay full price for their games because (and hopefully with Fallout 4 it's still the case) what they lack in performance and quality control they more than make up for in game content / design and community support.

[1337ish]

I've been reading pretty negative stuff on PC. There's no SLI support, mouse acceleration is enabled by default, there is a framerate cap of 60fps, it doesn't support 21:9 resolution, there's no FOV slider, the textures are terrible (all versions), etc. It seems a bit rushed.

Mouse acceleration, fov and 21:9 can be fixed with config edits.

[Hedon]

Been reading about those running the game on an external HDD on the Xbox One haven't had the FPS issues. I am running mine on external, and performance is great. No drops to 0. Sounds like they can patch this.