PS4 and Xbox One resolution / frame rate discussion

[JonnyLH]

Titanfall offloads a bit of AI processing onto the cloud but no more than dedicated servers have long done. It's not exclusive to the XB1 either, as the PC and X360 releases have the same features. As for Forza 5, all it's doing is taking driver styles and sharing them in the cloud - any developer could implement the same thing without Azure. Microsoft has talked up the amount of processing power available but that's irrelevant if it's not improving the gaming experience.

I've got to say, the point where people say Titanfall is just 'dedicated servers' bugs me, same with Forza. You're talking a global roll-out of an application which uses A LOT of resources on a global scale with an insane number of requests on the first day and continuing. That, even with it just being 'dedicated servers' is an infrastructural first. It's humongous. As primarily a network engineer myself, I commend MS on that as when I was playing it on day 1 it was flawlessly seamless. 

 

The video shows a practical example of improving the gaming experience in the video I linked. Something if implemented, would be amazingly awesome.

 

Microsoft has said that the first games based on DX12 will be released towards the end of 2015 and that it expects only half of games to support it. That means even if the performance improvements are as good as is claimed that half of games won't benefit from them. One of the biggest strengths of DX12 is the ease at which game development can be shared across the Xbox and PC but that isn't the case if it's only available on Xbox, plus it obviously doesn't help for the PS4 - you're basically asking developers to develop 3 separate games.

 

Obviously performance on the XB1 is going to improve, as it does on other platforms. However, it seems that there are a lot more hurdles to getting a game properly optimised on the XB1 than the PS4. Personally I hope the DX12 improvements really are as worthwhile as has been suggested, as that will benefit PC gaming.

On the PC, I sincerely doubt it will be the same for the X1. Ofcourse, I may be wrong but I hope not. Practically, it is much easier to get DX12 stable on the console first.

 

The last point you make, I agree with entirely. 

[LaP]

It's good to know that you didn't read the topic around the subject matter I posted above and mentioned OpenGL doing the same things, which it isn't buy a long shot. You've also got to understand that in terms of this discussion (Consoles) that PS4 doesn't sorely use OpenGL but rather a heavily modified version which uses in-house Playstation technologies that don't adapt the latest OpenGL implementations.

 

Sony has close to 2 years to adapt it. It's not like Directx 12 is around the corner. The first batch of games using it is expected at the end of 2015 or beginning of 2016 and it wont be common before fall 2016 probably.

[theyarecomingforyou]

I've got to say, the point where people say Titanfall is just 'dedicated servers' bugs me, same with Forza. You're talking a global roll-out of an application which uses A LOT of resources on a global scale with an insane number of requests on the first day and continuing. That, even with it just being 'dedicated servers' is an infrastructural first. It's humongous. As primarily a network engineer myself, I commend MS on that as when I was playing it on day 1 it was flawlessly seamless.

There were numerous server issues reported with Titanfall, so it was by no means as flawless as you claim - in some countries the game couldn't even be released because there was no server infrastructure in place. Further, there are plenty of other games that make wide use of cloud computing without the need for Azure - Diablo III being an obvious one.

 

The allure of Azure was that it was something that all developers could tap into and it could make up for the performance shortcomings of the XB1. The reality however is that they're not. We've seen a couple of games use it in a thoroughly underwhelming capacity. Sure there is potential there but what matters at the end of the day is the gaming experience. So far it seems like nothing more than a gimmick.

[JonnyLH]

There were numerous server issues reported with Titanfall, so it was by no means as flawless as you claim - in some countries the game couldn't even be released because there was no server infrastructure in place. Further, there are plenty of other games that make wide use of cloud computing without the need for Azure - Diablo III being an obvious one.

 

The allure of Azure was that it was something that all developers could tap into and it could make up for the performance shortcomings of the XB1. The reality however is that they're not. We've seen a couple of games use it in a thoroughly underwhelming capacity. Sure there is potential there but what matters at the end of the day is the gaming experience. So far it seems like nothing more than a gimmick.

As someone who played the game pretty much non-stop, I personally never experienced any server issues on the launch week. There was the couple of hours downtime that time, but I think that was the only downtime they had. That is a huge success considering the scale of it. Azure isn't about 'oh look at us, we provide something no-one else does', its never claimed to be that. It's free for developers to use on the Titanfall scale, something which means it will be incorporated and used in games like mentioned. The scaling features and the reliability it has is second to none. May I also add that when Titanfall was down, it wasn't Azure which was down but more so an issue with Respawn's server application up there.

 

Build 2014 was a good thing to watch in-terms of Azure. They demo'd (the above link) and shown the Azure SDK which is available now for developers which provides a solid software framework to perform and execute the more complex calcuations and off-loading like was shown. In terms of code, offloading and that concept is something which would need quite a lot of human resource to map away locally on an engine. I have no doubt that with the extra support and documentation there is for developers now and with the large first-party titles which are coming up on the X1 that it will be used properly. Like you though, I'm dissapointed in the more complex scenarios that it hasn't been used for. Still early days though.

[theyarecomingforyou]

Azure has suffered numerous server outages just like every other service, whether specifically for Titanfall or not. Regardless, the point is that it was touted as a big feature free for developers to use and most aren't interested in it, let alone utilising effectively. I'm sure there will be some first-party titles that utilise it but Sony will be able to do a similar thing on the PS4 should it want to. The problem for developers is that if they rely on it too heavily and there are network issues then that impacts the user experience, plus it can't be used on the PS4 so it's not suitable for multi-platform games.

 

Microsoft is going to have to do a lot more to prove the worth of Azure. There needs to be a definitive title, something simply not possible without substantial cloud computing power.

[trooper11]

Has someone decided to try and defend the X1 hardware wise? Not going to end well.

The esram feature is a strange one. For the 360, edram was held up as an asset to the system. Now, its considered a hindrance that adds undo pain to the process. It sounds like the reason that has happened is because its size is too small.

There is a prevailing idea that the X1 is about as good as its going to get and that things like DirectX 12, cloud servers, etc, are merely gimmicks meant to lie to end users. That idea is spawned by the reality of games produced for each console and the thought that since it uses x86 hardware that there is less to improve over time. When you have arcade games that can't hit 1080p, most people are going to take that as a bad sign.

Unlike last gen, when the roles were reversed perception wise, it seems difficult to imagine a scenario where popularity levels off between the two. It would take proof in the form of content on the X1 to change the perception.

[Showan]

Azure has suffered numerous server outages just like every other service, whether specifically for Titanfall or not. Regardless, the point is that it was touted as a big feature free for developers to use and most aren't interested in it, let alone utilising effectively. I'm sure there will be some first-party titles that utilise it but Sony will be able to do a similar thing on the PS4 should it want to. The problem for developers is that if they rely on it too heavily and there are network issues then that impacts the user experience, plus it can't be used on the PS4 so it's not suitable for multi-platform games.

 

Microsoft is going to have to do a lot more to prove the worth of Azure. There needs to be a definitive title, something simply not possible without substantial cloud computing power.

 

 

Respawn has said Microsoft has gotten a lot of calls about Azure after seeing how Titanfall held up on servers.

 

"Back when we started talking to Microsoft about it, everyone thought it was kind of crazy and a lot of other publishers were terrified of even doing it," Shiring says. "I've heard that since our beta ended, they've been pounding down the doors at Microsoft because they're realizing that it really is a real thing right now."

 

http://www.engadget.com/2014/03/10/titanfall-cloud-explained/

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Respawn has said Microsoft has gotten a lot of calls about Azure after seeing how Titanfall held up on servers.

 

"Back when we started talking to Microsoft about it, everyone thought it was kind of crazy and a lot of other publishers were terrified of even doing it," Shiring says. "I've heard that since our beta ended, they've been pounding down the doors at Microsoft because they're realizing that it really is a real thing right now."

 

http://www.engadget.com/2014/03/10/titanfall-cloud-explained/

 

That was the most cheesiest hot air blowing quote seen from PR in a while. Not the first time I've seen it (discussed on NW before), but it gives a laugh each time it's posted again.

 

As for Titanfall server issues, they definitely happened (multiple times)

 

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-and-360-experiencing-server-issues-titanfall-and-more-currently-affected-update/1100-6418539/

 

http://venturebeat.com/2014/04/10/titanfalls-no-servers-found-issue-is-affecting-xbox-one-and-pc-players-microsoft-working-on-a-fix/

[theyarecomingforyou]

I saw that quote at the time but it's your typical hyperbolic marketing speak. We haven't seen developers or publishers announcing games that utilise the cloud. Even so, if all they're planning to do is implement features in a similar way to Titanfall then most gamers couldn't care less.

[LaP]

Has someone decided to try and defend the X1 hardware wise? Not going to end well.

 

 

At the end of the day what is important though is for which console the 3rd party multiplatform games are developed for.

 

That is the most important thing. The cloud, esram, ddr5, more shaders etc wont make a difference if the games are developed for the other system. The difference in power between the ps4 and one is too small one way or the other.

 

Just look at the GameCube. The first party games and exclusive games looked as great as XBox first party games. Honestly RE 4 was one of the best looking game of this generation. Problem is most multiplatform games suffered from being developed with the XBox hardware in mind and ###### poor ported to the GC.

 

• If the games are developed with the PS4 in mind devs will be lazy and exploit the 8gb of gddr5 and the advantage in shaders power. They will make a port for the XBox One and wont exploit the advantage it has over the ps4 (cloud, dev tools, directx, etc...). The One version of most multiplatform games will probably suffer from lack of raw shaders power etc ...
• If the games are developed with the XBox One in mind devs will exploit the cloud and optimize their games for the esram. They will port it to PS4 and if Sony doesn't offer cloud servers some features will be then droped.

 

For now most of the games are still developed for the xbox 360 and ported to next gen with upgraded gfx. The PS4 benefit from that since it has more raw power to handle ###### poor ports from last gen hardware which had a different arch.

 

I think for now the PS4 has the advantage of having a more conventional design. Will it changes later? Maybe. But it might be too late to be honest. Microsoft will need to keep the number of units sold close to Sony in the meantime by reducing the price (already done?) and securing exclusive titles. E3 of this year will be important for Microsoft. Quantum Break, d4 and Sunset Overdrive look interesting but those wont move consoles and don't really look better than The Order something to me. MS will need to have a working version of Halo and next Gears at E3 or some sort of ace up its sleeve.

[JonnyLH]

That was the most cheesiest hot air blowing quote seen from PR in a while. Not the first time I've seen it (discussed on NW before), but it gives a laugh each time it's posted again.

 

As for Titanfall server issues, they definitely happened (multiple times)

 

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-and-360-experiencing-server-issues-titanfall-and-more-currently-affected-update/1100-6418539/

 

http://venturebeat.com/2014/04/10/titanfalls-no-servers-found-issue-is-affecting-xbox-one-and-pc-players-microsoft-working-on-a-fix/

Engineers cracking out PR quotes? That's a first, especially when it's not their own product they're talking about and it's a third party developer who's IP is owned by EA. 

 

What I'm seeing on the internet these days is: anything that doesn't align with your own personal opinion is marked with "PR speak". Calling something PR speak is becoming more of a hyperbole than PR itself. 

[vcfan]

love how some people like to dismiss cloud compute,and pretend it doesnt work,but in the same breath will praise something like playstation now,where not only are physics and ai computed on a server, but where the graphics are also rendered,and all the other code, and finally everything needs to be encoded and decoded on the other end.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

Engineers cracking out PR quotes? That's a first, especially when it's not their own product they're talking about and it's a third party developer who's IP is owned by EA. 

 

What I'm seeing on the internet these days is: anything that doesn't align with your own personal opinion is marked with "PR speak". Calling something PR speak is becoming more of a hyperbole than PR itself. 

 

"Knocking down doors" gives no tangible evidence, no names of the said developers or studios behaving like this, nor any indication what they're wanting to do with the cloud. 

 

I don't really know many engineers who would speak in such a fashion when discussing technical merits, hence it's PR speak regardless of who's mouth it comes from.

 

love how some people like to dismiss cloud compute,and pretend it doesnt work,but in the same breath will praise something like playstation now,where not only are physics and ai computed on a server, but where the graphics are also rendered,and all the other code, and finally everything needs to be encoded and decoded on the other end.

 

Playstation Now is streaming video more so than ai or physics calculations. Sure the controller inputs have to go from your home to a server somewhere, but that is why you get input lag.

[JonnyLH]

"Knocking down doors" gives no tangible evidence, no names of the said developers or studios behaving like this, nor any indication what they're wanting to do with the cloud. 

Why would they have the information of that? Are they an internal organisation inside of MS? They just knew that after the beta that developers were keen to use it due to it being able to hold and withstand their requirements, which they said.

 

Just because they didn't expand on a fly-by statement, doesn't mean it was PR. Especially when it's not an official statement, rather interview so by definition it's far from 'PR'.

[Showan]

That was the most cheesiest hot air blowing quote seen from PR in a while. Not the first time I've seen it (discussed on NW before), but it gives a laugh each time it's posted again.

 

As for Titanfall server issues, they definitely happened (multiple times)

 

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-one-and-360-experiencing-server-issues-titanfall-and-more-currently-affected-update/1100-6418539/

 

http://venturebeat.com/2014/04/10/titanfalls-no-servers-found-issue-is-affecting-xbox-one-and-pc-players-microsoft-working-on-a-fix/

 

 

Now compare this minor blip to BF4 months of issues (which affected almost all users everyday)... I'm not saying there weren't issues, but compared to Sim City, or BF4, it wasn't much of an issue.  BF4 is just now getting stable

 

 

That only affected some players.  Living on the East Coast in here in the USofA, I had NO issues w/Titanfall.

 

Issues will always arise,  it's how quickly you handle the issue, will result in it being truly problematic or not.

[trooper11]

Discussing anything related to MS' Azure services is pretty heated. There is a real apprehension to talking about it at all and when its mentioned as a good service or has interest from developers, there is a quick reaction to that.

This seems to come from the over-the-top hyping that was done by some to try and make it something that it was not. That has resulted in a lot of cynicism around what MS is offering. So when an engineer, developer, or even MS itself has demos or make statements regarding it, there will be blow back.

What fixes this is game content. It wont happen overnight and it will require a long string of game content that uses the tools MS is offering that results in a positive experience. You could have every developer on Earth come out and praise what MS offers via Azure and it would not really have an impact. Its action that makes an impact and action in this case is real games anyone can play.

At the end of the day what is important though is for which console the 3rd party multiplatform games are developed for.

 

That is the most important thing. The cloud, esram, ddr5, more shaders etc wont make a difference if the games are developed for the other system. The difference in power between the ps4 and one is too small one way or the other.

Your exactly right, it will come down to which console is the lead platform development wise.

I think for now the PS4 has the advantage of having a more conventional design. Will it changes later? Maybe. But it might be too late to be honest. Microsoft will need to keep the number of units sold close to Sony in the meantime by reducing the price (already done?) and securing exclusive titles. E3 of this year will be important for Microsoft. Quantum Break, d4 and Sunset Overdrive look interesting but those wont move consoles and don't really look better than The Order something to me. MS will need to have a working version of Halo and next Gears at E3 or some sort of ace up its sleeve.

I guess its crazy to think that one could lose a console generation within the first year (more like 6 months), but it sure seems like the 'mood' (i.e. word of mouth, online gaming community, etc) of the market has shifted in an aggressive way that makes you wonder if there is room for a shift back to the middle like it did last gen.

If MS cannot generate excitement around its exclusive titles, the chance of redemption goes away. You mention a few of those games. If the new ip really cannot sell systems, then that's bad news. New ip is what keeps the library fresh and its those games that can have the biggest impact. People often talk about how they are tired of seeing sequels and yet those sequels now become what console makers rely on to carry the load.

So yeah, too late could very well be the term.

[vcfan]

Playstation Now is streaming video more so than ai or physics calculations. Sure the controller inputs have to go from your home to a server somewhere, but that is why you get input lag.

playstation now has way more overhead,yet you aren't quick to call it a gimmick.

[LaP]

I guess its crazy to think that one could lose a console generation within the first year (more like 6 months), but it sure seems like the 'mood' (i.e. word of mouth, online gaming community, etc) of the market has shifted in an aggressive way that makes you wonder if there is room for a shift back to the middle like it did last gen.

 

 

Honestly the shift last generation came late in the life of the PS3. Yes overrall the PS3 sold as much as the 360 worldwide and definately had the momentum worldwide in the last 2 years. But overall if you ask gamers what was the best console last gen outside of japan i'm sure more than 50% will answer the XBox 360 cause the 360 dominated most of the gen unlike the PS3 which ""dominated"" the last year or two.

 

The same thing might happen this time. Microsoft can definately turn things around. The question is will Microsoft be able to do this soon enough like they did with the XBox (in the first 6 months or so the XBox was far from a big success). DirectX 12 wont have a significant impact before mid 2016. Close to three years after the release of the "next gen" consoles. Unless we see an outstanding use of the cloud and/or TV and/or Kinect at e3 the hill might effectively be steep. I'm not saying the cloud, TV and Kinect are not nice addition to what is already a nice piece of gaming hardware but from my point of view MS has yet to prove me they are killer features. It's nice to have them but not enough to make me want to pass over Last of US a second time to play ... uh Ryse or Titanfall :huh: ...

 

We will see soon i guess we are getting close to E3. So far i'm still leaning toward the PS4. I played Titanfall on PC and while it's a fun game it's definately not a system seller to me like Halo was. I really want to play Last of US HD (could not last gen since i had a 360 only). While i was skeptical about the Order and Drive Club last year at E3 it looks like both might be good arcade console games.

[trooper11]

We will see soon i guess we are getting close to E3. So far i'm still leaning toward the PS4. I played Titanfall on PC and while it's a fun game it's definately not a deal breaker to me like Halo was. I really want to play Last of US HD (could not last gen since i had a 360 only). While i was skeptical about the Order and Drive Club at first it looks like both might be good "arcade" games.

I do wonder why your more confident in The Order vs say Quantum Break and Sunset Overdrive considering we have seen more of The Order than either of the others.

I'm personally looking forward to The Order base don the early concepts, but I have no idea what those other two will turn out to be.

Overall though, its true that everything is point the ps4's way right now. It may be set in stone.

[+Audioboxer Subscriber²]

playstation now has way more overhead,yet you aren't quick to call it a gimmick.

 

Probably also because no one is saying it's something it's not. Latency is being spoken about realistically, there's no whimsical promises.

 

From day one we've been told it needs fast broadband and there will be latency lag.

[LaP]

I do wonder why your more confident in The Order vs say Quantum Break and Sunset Overdrive considering we have seen more of The Order than either of the others.

 

 

I'm not really more confident.

 

It's more that last year at e3 i was more confident that Quantum Break and Sunset Overdrive would both be better games. Last year The Order looked totally :|  to me.

 

But since then unless i'm mistaken we did not hear much if at all from Quantum Break dev (i might have missed something) while we actually saw a gameplay video of the Order which actually looked like it could be a fun arcade game anyway i do like the art style of it.

[vcfan]

Probably also because no one is saying it's something it's not. Latency is being spoken about realistically, there's no whimsical promises.

 

From day one we've been told it needs fast broadband and there will be latency lag.

but have you seen titanfall?

[Riggers]

Personally i`m slightly dissapointed that these `next-gen` consoles may have to make use of the cloud/external servers/whatever you want to call it!

With the way technology has moved on in leaps and bounds i would have thought that both the PS4 and XBox 1 would have enough capacity in hand to last for many years to come. Hopefully we`ll see this come to fruition and the fact most games are still being made for the PS3 and XBox 360 still has a big influence on the final product.

Within a couple of years both consoles will hopefully have amazing games which can be played offline if needed without any or very marginal performance drop...

[trooper11]

Probably also because no one is saying it's something it's not. Latency is being spoken about realistically, there's no whimsical promises.

 

From day one we've been told it needs fast broadband and there will be latency lag.

 

Classic example that supports my point earlier.

Those that tried to make whimsical promises have spoiled the chance for a reasonable look at features related to it. The wall goes up.

 

I'm not really more confident.

 

It's more that last year at e3 i was more confident that Quantum Break and Sunset Overdrive would both be better games. Last year The Order looked totally :|  to me.

 

But since then unless i'm mistaken we did not hear much if at all from Quantum Break dev (i might have missed something) while we actually saw a gameplay video of the Order which actually looked like it could be a fun arcade game anyway i do like the art style of it.

Ah ok, so its because you have seen more about The Order that gets you excited for it. That's understandable, that's why I'm looking forward to it.

[trooper11]

Personally i`m slightly dissapointed that these `next-gen` consoles may have to make use of the cloud/external servers/whatever you want to call it!

With the way technology has moved on in leaps and bounds i would have thought that both the PS4 and XBox 1 would have enough capacity in hand to last for many years to come. Hopefully we`ll see this come to fruition and the fact most games are still being made for the PS3 and XBox 360 still has a big influence on the final product.

Within a couple of years both consoles will hopefully have amazing games which can be played offline if needed without any or very marginal performance drop...

I do sometimes wonder if expectations have changed from previous generations of consoles.

At a high level, even the more powerful ps4 is only using the equivalent of a mid range pc. So if you only look at it that way, you may think its a disappointment compared to the past simply based on how it stacks up to pcs today.

However, if you look at it based on how it stacks up with the previous gen, you might feel better about the hardware being several times more powerful.

Or look at it another way. The 360 and ps3 have survived even as the pc has raced by them in terms of gaming hardware. That has not stopped many, many people from buying last gen consoles and new games. In fact, both the ps3 and 360 are doing pretty darn well considering their age. I don't see why this gen has to be different.

The pc will once again outclass consoles, but who cares? If it wasn't a big deal last gen, why make it one now?