The return of the Start menu in future Windows 8.1 update: Thoughts?

[Dot Matrix]

  On 08/04/2014 at 01:24, trek said:

yeah, just like the start menu is never coming back either.

 

Don't you ever get tired of posting the same BS over and over again?

The Start Menu is Metro based, The Start Screen still exists on Xbox, Windows 8, and Windows Phone. Not to mention, Microsoft's universal apps are all Metro based, so tell me, why do you think Metro is going away?

[Lord Method Man]

  On 08/04/2014 at 01:24, trek said:

yeah, just like the start menu is never coming back either.

 

Don't you ever get tired of posting the same BS over and over again? People hate metro, people hate the start menu. Whatever... It's going around in infinite circles.

 

Yeah you'd think after two years of being wrong about absolutely everything they would give it a rest.

[Bugballou]

From what I can see here I think I'll stick with StartIsBack, and it seems I've heard this start menu is coming back song and dance before...

I prefer a clean desktop, and an uncluttered taskbar, at log on. Hell, I prefer a desktop at log on, and that is what I have, running 8.1.

Choice is good, to an extent.

[DavidM]

  On 08/04/2014 at 01:11, Dot Matrix said:

Metro isn't going anywhere.

 

Yes, I know it was a joke... heh heh too bad...

 

  On 08/04/2014 at 01:27, Dot Matrix said:

The Start Menu is Metro based, The Start Screen still exists on Xbox, Windows 8, and Windows Phone. Not to mention, Microsoft's universal apps are all Metro based, so tell me, why do you think Metro is going away?

 

Nobody thinks metro is going away, I don't care what they do with it as long as they stop gimping the desktop.

[PGHammer]

  On 06/04/2014 at 23:13, adrynalyne said:

I'm really not making any assumption.

 

Metro has not taken off...anywhere and customers have shown this by buying other things. 

If they are buying tablets and smartphones, why is it necessarily rejection of ModernUI?  Could it be that they are rejecting a traditional tower for reasons of price?

 

A tablet (an 8.1 tablet - not an RT tablet) has either price parity or actually costs LESS than a traditional tower PC; not to mention, merely in traditional retail, is more often available than a traditional tower.  (hhgregg, for example, doesn't sell traditional tower PCs at all.  Even Best Buy - the Urbane Gorilla of big-box retail - is selling fewer traditional towers than they did even two years ago; the same is true of eight-hundred-pound-gorilla Wal-Mart.  Basically, traditional tower sales are down, and tablet/slate/non-traditional PC sales, of all sorts, are up.  The traditional desktop formfactor is under siege by mobile/portable hardware - the OS has nothing to do with it at all.)

 

Also, traditional towers are not portable - except MAYBE in the "luggable" sense. Demand is for portability - and NOT in the luggable sense.  Hence portable PCs - in every screen size from seventeen inches down - are seling, and in droves. Touch is more common in the portable formfactors than in desktops - even AIOs, despite adopting touch, are still dwarfed in terms of sales by portables. And that is common features, where the only differences are portability and price - and yet you are trying to say that neither has anything to do with what gets sold?  Note that none of this has anything to do with the OS on the hardware at all.

[DConnell Member]

  On 08/04/2014 at 00:51, DavidM said:

Because that's when the Win 8 hate started, to discount that overlooks the problem many have with it. It also shows how long people have been asking for the things that MS removed.

 

Funny, most of the people wanted just that - options, that's all I ask for, the option to continue using my desktop pretty much the same way I did in Win 7. I don't care if Windows is on any other platform, I use an Android tablet and IOS phone, because I liked their experiences on the platform I chose them on. Windows can be on as many form factors as Microsoft wants, but why does the UI have to be changed for the platform it's already on? They already had a great system - Aero, looked good, worked well and people LIKED it, why crap all over that with Win 8?

 

Don't worry I'm sure Stardock will make a replacement app if Microsoft removes Metro (or parts that you want)...

 

 

Funny, when I choose to, I can use the desktop in Win 8 exactly as I did in Win 7, with no add-ons, no limitations. I just have options beyond the traditional desktop (UI). And a much improved program launcher tying the halves of the OS together.

 

And I'm not talking about tablets here - I'm referring to having 2 different UIs and program styles to choose from, on my stationary computers.

 

Why do so many of the anti-8 crowd, when they talk of options, then immediately start talking about limiting those options to just what they prefer?

 

 

And I'm sure Stardock could come up with a $5 tool to replace half the OS . Because an entire operating environment and a little menu are totally the same thing . . .  :rolleyes: What I'd like them to do is a wrapper to let me run desktop programs in the Modern environment.

  On 08/04/2014 at 03:47, DavidM said:

Nobody thinks metro is going away, I don't care what they do with it as long as they stop gimping the desktop.

 

How is Microsoft gimping the desktop? Especially now that the menu is coming back? Personally, I think returning the menu is gimping the OS, but a long as it remains optional, I can just leave it disabled and not have to deal with it.

[DavidM]

  On 08/04/2014 at 10:24, DConnell said:

Funny, when I choose to, I can use the desktop in Win 8 exactly as I did in Win 7, with no add-ons, no limitations. I just have options beyond the traditional desktop (UI). And a much improved program launcher tying the halves of the OS together.

 

And I'm not talking about tablets here - I'm referring to having 2 different UIs and program styles to choose from, on my stationary computers.

 

Why do so many of the anti-8 crowd, when they talk of options, then immediately start talking about limiting those options to just what they prefer?

 

 

And I'm sure Stardock could come up with a $5 tool to replace half the OS . Because an entire operating environment and a little menu are totally the same thing . . .  :rolleyes: What I'd like them to do is a wrapper to let me run desktop programs in the Modern environment.

 

How is Microsoft gimping the desktop? Especially now that the menu is coming back? Personally, I think returning the menu is gimping the OS, but a long as it remains optional, I can just leave it disabled and not have to deal with it.

 

Where did you get a copy of Win 8 with an actual working Start Menu like the one in Windows 7? Oh, yeah, you don't so you can use Win 8 EXACTLY like Win 7.

 

Ok, please stop lumpng me in with the anti-8 crowd, I have stated many many many many many times and I'll state it again... for the RECORD. - I am glad there are users who like/love/enjoy Metro and the more CHOICES Win 8 has the  better.

 

Please stop with the drama - I said "Microsoft removes Metro (or parts that you want)...", just like you know the topic of this thread, the way they removed the Start Menu from the desktop. Did Stardock remake the entire desktop or "an entire operating enviroment"?

 

Microsoft gimped the desktop by making me use something that looked like a bad tablet UI, stop with the "now that" because there wouldn't be a RETURN of anything if people were happy with Metro. They ripped out Aero and replaced it with a bad Litestep theme, they removed the ability to change the FONT, and people couldn't even figure out how to turn the damn thing off. You know when Microsoft removes something from Metro, that you find very useful, and want it back, then maybe, just maybe you will understand how I feel about Win 8. They removed/hid previous functionality for no reason, or maybe you know a reason to remove the ability to change the font?

 

Too bad, we can't leave Metro disabled and have a Win 7 styled desktop...

[DConnell Member]

  On 08/04/2014 at 15:46, DavidM said:

Where did you get a copy of Win 8 with an actual working Start Menu like the one in Windows 7? Oh, yeah, you don't so you can use Win 8 EXACTLY like Win 7.

 

Ok, please stop lumpng me in with the anti-8 crowd, I have stated many many many many many times and I'll state it again... for the RECORD. - I am glad there are users who like/love/enjoy Metro and the more CHOICES Win 8 has the  better.

 

Please stop with the drama - I said "Microsoft removes Metro (or parts that you want)...", just like you know the topic of this thread, the way they removed the Start Menu from the desktop. Did Stardock remake the entire desktop or "an entire operating enviroment"?

 

Microsoft gimped the desktop by making me use something that looked like a bad tablet UI, stop with the "now that" because there wouldn't be a RETURN of anything if people were happy with Metro. They ripped out Aero and replaced it with a bad Litestep theme, they removed the ability to change the FONT, and people couldn't even figure out how to turn the damn thing off. You know when Microsoft removes something from Metro, that you find very useful, and want it back, then maybe, just maybe you will understand how I feel about Win 8. They removed/hid previous functionality for no reason, or maybe you know a reason to remove the ability to change the font?

 

Too bad, we can't leave Metro disabled and have a Win 7 styled desktop...

 

On the desktop, I can hit the Win key, and type what I want to launch. That's exactly how I used the desktop in Windows 7. I avoided the Menu like the plague. Or I have the choice of an actual usable program launcher in the form of the Screen.

 

So no, I don't think replacing the Menu with another launcher gimped the desktop at all. Rather it was improved by the replacement of a cumbersome, outdated feature. IMO Microsoft finally fixed their mistake from 1995.

 

And the latest update is actually adding stuff to Modern that I don't want or need. I'm holding off on updating until I'm sure the faux-desktop stuff can be disabled. A close box and taskbar have no place in Modern. I guess you could say I'm losing the cleanness of Modern in this update.

[DavidM]

  On 08/04/2014 at 15:59, DConnell said:

On the desktop, I can hit the Win key, and type what I want to launch. That's exactly how I used the desktop in Windows 7. I avoided the Menu like the plague. Or I have the choice of an actual usable program launcher in the form of the Screen.

 

So no, I don't think replacing the Menu with another launcher gimped the desktop at all. Rather it was improved by the replacement of a cumbersome, outdated feature. IMO Microsoft finally fixed their mistake from 1995.

 

And the latest update is actually adding stuff to Modern that I don't want or need. I'm holding off on updating until I'm sure the faux-desktop stuff can be disabled. A close box and taskbar have no place in Modern. I guess you could say I'm losing the cleanness of Modern in this update.

 

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I think the start screen gimped the desktop. Don't worry they are "fixing" Win 8 as we speak.

 

Too bad the new update mandatory if you wish to recieve future updates... so much for choice.

[DConnell Member]

  On 08/04/2014 at 17:43, DavidM said:

 

Too bad the new update mandatory if you wish to recieve future updates... so much for choice.

 

On that we can agree. Why does it have to be either-or?

[George P Global Moderator]

The update being mandatory is because of the API changes they've made, it's needed, specially for universal apps and a unified app store coming later.

 

Lots of you are going back and forth rehashing the same arguments, in the end it doesn't matter because here's the choice everyone wanted.    Use the new menu, or don't, or load up some old 3rd party menu still if you feel like it, it matters little at this point.  The desktop was never going away, it wasn't even depreciated, some make it sound like they gutted things out of the desktop which never happened.   Metro is also here to stay, or in this case WINRT, store apps are becoming part of the desktop and to that end I expect more changes to the desktop to support them while also brining WINRT features to older Win32 WPF apps, like contracts.

 

Don't be surprised if after we get the new menu they then work on a new taskbar as well.  Also if they stick to the trend of sharing things between Windows and WP, when they bring over the Action Center that the old systray gets the boot as well.   I also expect to see the charms in the new menu as well, from the little concept glimpse at the BUILD keynote they did they weren't there but I have a feeling they will be in the final version.  Or if not in the menu then some way to bring them up next to the app window and not in the corner. 

 

Either way, nothing is going away, and the two things are coming closer together now.

[MorganX]

Updated this afternoon. Nothing really changed initially, other than the close minimize bar in Modern apps. Works well, well done. Pinning Modern Apps, genius. Shoulda been there day one. I see no need to add taskbar over modern, or run modern in Windows, but it's definitely better though I'd like a more modern look to the right-click context menus on the start screen.

[Kyang]

  On 13/04/2014 at 01:36, MorganX said:

Updated this afternoon. Nothing really changed initially, other than the close minimize bar in Modern apps. Works well, well done. Pinning Modern Apps, genius. Shoulda been there day one. I see no need to add taskbar over modern, or run modern in Windows, but it's definitely better though I'd like a more modern look to the right-click context menus on the start screen.

 

 

Odd thing about the right click on the start screen is that it's like a half-way done metro style menu.  They removed the dividing line between the item text, and where the check mark would go, and they also changed the highlight style to a flat, strokeless grey, instead of the blue, outlined box on the desktop.

 

I agree with you, I wouldn't mind them going all the way in the next update.

[Rippleman]

  On 05/04/2014 at 13:20, Dot Matrix said:

... So? Snap them to the side. They make great side apps. What's wrong with viewing photos fullscreen? Windows has had fullscreen for years. Why is it suddenly a bad thing?

 

i don't know if you are multi-tasking like others most others do. This is probably why you like Metro.

  On 08/04/2014 at 15:59, DConnell said:

On the desktop, I can hit the Win key, and type what I want to launch.

why would you WANT to have the extra hassle of typing what you are looking for though... why not just click it?

[Dot Matrix]

  On 13/04/2014 at 01:56, rippleman said:

i don't know if you are multi-tasking like others most others do. This is probably why you like Metro.

My multi-tasking has always been around fullscreen, or "snapped" windows. I can't stand to have a mess of oddly sized open windows just floating around everywhere, making a mess of things. It takes too much time to click through that. When Windows 7 introduced better snapping abilities, I was thrilled. Windows 8 (and Metro) are no different. Just like in Windows 7, I can drag an app to the sides of the screen to snap them in place.

[DConnell Member]

  On 13/04/2014 at 01:56, rippleman said:

why would you WANT to have the extra hassle of typing what you are looking for though... why not just click it?

 

If it were a case of simply clicking an item, that would be one thing, but the menu required drilling down to find anything not in the most frequently used or pinned programs. I hate having to dig through multiple submenus. It's easier and faster to type. I like the screen because it eliminates the drilldown - it really is "just click it".

[leesmithg]

On my Sons Windows v8.1 P.C. I installed classic shell and downloaded a heap of start orbs so he could choose his start button.

 

Now he aint bothered now that Windows in the future will add a decent start button.

[Rippleman]

  On 13/04/2014 at 12:02, DConnell said:

If it were a case of simply clicking an item, that would be one thing, but the menu required drilling down to find anything not in the most frequently used or pinned programs. I hate having to dig through multiple submenus. It's easier and faster to type. I like the screen because it eliminates the drilldown - it really is "just click it".

for me, typing out what you are looking for me seems like more work. For me, its "I see it, I click it" 

[Jim K Global Moderator]

  On 13/04/2014 at 12:02, DConnell said:

If it were a case of simply clicking an item, that would be one thing, but the menu required drilling down to find anything not in the most frequently used or pinned programs. I hate having to dig through multiple submenus. It's easier and faster to type. I like the screen because it eliminates the drilldown - it really is "just click it".

 

That is great.  Keep with the Metro / typing to launch applications.  Not sure why you and Dot Matrix have a hard time understanding and are trying to convince others that Metro is so much better and that WE should use it.  No thank you, I'd much rather have the Start Menu / QuickLaunch bar to run programs instead of being thrown into a full screen program launcher.  

 

Also, the argument that the Start Menu is legacy and has passed its usefulness is such hogwash...it is JUST a program launcher...that is it and that is all it should be.  Did I mention I love the QuickLaunch bar?  Even after almost 15 years it beats the Start Menu and Start Screen at launching programs.  I don't like pinning because it takes either holding the shift button or right clicking to run multiple instances.

 

Below is my simple Windows 7 method of launching programs.  Desktop has two icons, Computer and Recycle Bin.  Simplistic and it works for me.

[Dot Matrix]

  On 13/04/2014 at 12:02, DConnell said:

If it were a case of simply clicking an item, that would be one thing, but the menu required drilling down to find anything not in the most frequently used or pinned programs. I hate having to dig through multiple submenus. It's easier and faster to type. I like the screen because it eliminates the drilldown - it really is "just click it".

This, x1000000000000000000000000000000000

  On 13/04/2014 at 13:10, jjkusaf said:

That is great. Keep with the Metro / typing to launch applications. Not sure why you and Dot Matrix have a hard time understanding and are trying to convince others that Metro is so much better and that WE should use it. No thank you, I'd much rather have the Start Menu / QuickLaunch bar to run programs instead of being thrown into a full screen program launcher.

Also, the argument that the Start Menu is legacy and has passed its usefulness is such hogwash...it is JUST a program launcher...that is it and that is all it should be. Did I mention I love the QuickLaunch bar? Even after almost 15 years it beats the Start Menu and Start Screen at launching programs. I don't like pinning because it takes either holding the shift button or right clicking to run multiple instances.

Below is my simple Windows 7 method of launching programs. Desktop has two icons, Computer and Recycle Bin. Simplistic and it works for me.

It may just be a launcher, but it's a horribly designed launcher. The biggest issue with it (and the desktop in general), is that it just doesn't scale well at all. It's incredibly hard to see those icons, and the user is dependent on reading line after line in order to locate the folder they need, thanks to the vanilla folders all having the same icon. Taskbar pinning is great, but it's no savior either, as I find myself easily able to mis-click on those icons, wasting time as I now have to wait for the application to launch before closing it. The same applies for the quicklaunch bar. I'm personally glad that was removed from Windows 7. It was great to pin "show desktop" there, and that was about it.

FYI, You can open new instances of applications by simply clicking the middle mouse wheel.

[Kyang]

  On 13/04/2014 at 13:10, jjkusaf said:

That is great.  Keep with the Metro / typing to launch applications.  Not sure why you and Dot Matrix have a hard time understanding and are trying to convince others that Metro is so much better and that WE should use it.  No thank you, I'd much rather have the Start Menu / QuickLaunch bar to run programs instead of being thrown into a full screen program launcher.  

 

Also, the argument that the Start Menu is legacy and has passed its usefulness is such hogwash...it is JUST a program launcher...that is it and that is all it should be.  Did I mention I love the QuickLaunch bar?  Even after almost 15 years it beats the Start Menu and Start Screen at launching programs.  I don't like pinning because it takes either holding the shift button or right clicking to run multiple instances.

 

Below is my simple Windows 7 method of launching programs.  Desktop has two icons, Computer and Recycle Bin.  Simplistic and it works for me.

 

You can also middle click for multiple instances of pinned items on the taskbar.  Of course that's if you're using a mouse.  I don't know if you might be using a laptop touch pad or something.

 

The argument about the Start Menu being legacy has to do with how it's set up as a bunch of folders that has to be drilled down into and something heavily mouse oriented, not that it's basic function as "just" a program launcher is somehow "legacy".  The Start Screen is still basically a program launcher too.

 

Come to think of it, even the Windows 7 menu that you're talking about is already more than "just" a program launcher.  It's a place to access recently used items, link to folders, link to places on the desktop, shutdown/restart the computer, access your user profile, search for things...

[Jim K Global Moderator]

  On 13/04/2014 at 13:21, Kyang said:

You can also middle click for multiple instances of pinned items on the taskbar.  Of course that's if you're using a mouse.  I don't know if you might be using a laptop touch pad or something.

 

Yea, the problem with that is that on my mouse, the middle button (I'm assuming you're talking about the wheel) causes it to go from no-resistance to a "clicky" spin and vice versa (where I prefer the "clicky")...if you know what I mean?

 

Anyway, never did like the whole pinning applications except on my HTPC..and that is just because the icons are bigger and I really do not launch multiple instances of applications on it.

[Dot Matrix]

  On 13/04/2014 at 13:37, jjkusaf said:

Yea, the problem with that is that on my mouse, the middle button (I'm assuming you're talking about the wheel) causes it to go from no-resistance to a "clicky" spin and vice versa (where I prefer the "clicky")...if you know what I mean?

 

Anyway, never did like the whole pinning applications except on my HTPC..and that is just because the icons are bigger and I really do not launch multiple instances of applications on it.

O_o

[Jim K Global Moderator]

  On 13/04/2014 at 13:45, Dot Matrix said:

O_o

 

elaborate?

[Dot Matrix]

  On 13/04/2014 at 13:48, jjkusaf said:

elaborate?

I don't get what you mean with your middle click.