SWAT officer shot in the face breaking into window during no-knock raid

By Hurmoth
in Real World News

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Grand Master

LaP

Posted
Posted

Something similar happened here a couple of years ago. The guy was not found guilty of murder cause the raid was illegal and he was acting in self defense.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-man-acquitted-in-police-officer-slaying-1.698274

Grand Master

+Red King Subscriber²

Posted
  • Subscriber²
Posted

I guess it all comes down to - should citizens be armed? And in America the answer is an overwhelming "Yes!".

In this case, Police = Robbers

...

Grand Master

macrosslover

Posted
Posted

The other problem with no-knock raids is the direct opposite of what happened here. Some innocent persons home or business is raided by mistake, wrong address, lame-ass reason etc., and in responding to them breaking the cops riddle them or their family with bullets or scare them half to death.

Examples

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/29/11_over_the_top_u_s_police_raids_that_victimized_innocents/

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/24/atlanta.police/

http://m.ctpost.com/local/article/Towns-to-pay-3-5M-in-deadly-cop-raid-4290145.php

unfortunately that can happen any time they serve a warrant, whether it is a no knock or knock and announce warrant.  In the case of that Atlanta incident, those officers flat out lied  so they were rightly sent to prison for their crimes.  Aside from isolated incidents where officers lie to obtain a warrant, nobody is perfect, and SWAT teams are the most highly trained officers you could have doing these warrants to minimize unnecessary injuries.  In this particular case, considering that fours officers were shot and they didn't riddle the guy with bullets, I think says a lot about the restraint that they exercised, where as "normal" officers would have riddled the house with bullets. 

 

I think when it's all said and done, this particular case will probably be one where a no knock warrant was not needed and they probably really didn't need to hit the house anyway.  However there will still be times where police will need that tactical advantage for their lives and the lives of people inside of the home, that a no knock warrant gives them.

Grand Master

Memphis

Posted
Posted

We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts - not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution and the courts

-- Abraham Lincoln

 

You mean the same Lincoln that gave Edwin M. Stanton access to all telegraph messages in the United States? Its funny how little these kinds of words mean when you review the policies of these presidents.

Proficient

DarkyDan

Posted
Posted

Surely you'd look before you shot?  or took cover to see or hear who the intruder might be.. before you shot.

 

This American shoot first/ask questions later garbage is insanely dim witted.  I do think that heavy handed drug policing is bigger issue than gun control in this particular ###### storm though.

Grand Master

Memphis

Posted
Posted

Surely you'd look before you shot?  or took cover to see or hear who the intruder might be.. before you shot.

 

This American shoot first/ask questions later garbage is insanely dim witted.  I do think that heavy handed drug policing is bigger issue than gun control in this particular ###### storm though.

 

I will have to side with the shooter here, you start breaking into my house with weapons visible without clearly letting me know your cops and I am not going to sit around and find out if they are cops. 

Proficient

DarkyDan

Posted
Posted

I will have to side with the shooter here, you start breaking into my house with weapons visible without clearly letting me know your cops and I am not going to sit around and find out if they are cops. 

 

I wouldn't blame the shooter, but my logic comes from being brought up in AUS with strict gun control.  A totally different ball game.  I'd want to make a split second decision rather than shoot on sight.

Grand Master

Gerowen

Posted
Posted

My condolences go out to the family of the fallen officer, but at the end of the day, they should have anticipated this as a possibility when illegally breaking into somebody's home in the middle of the night without announcing themselves.

Grand Master

adrynalyne

Posted
Posted

Surely you'd look before you shot?  or took cover to see or hear who the intruder might be.. before you shot.

 

This American shoot first/ask questions later garbage is insanely dim witted.  I do think that heavy handed drug policing is bigger issue than gun control in this particular ###### storm though.

If you are breaking in to my home with force, I will kill you instead of worrying about you killing me or hurting my family.  There is no need to ask questions if someone is using force to barge in.  If they will destroy property to get in, there is a decent chance they would do the same to the occupants.

 

Don't like it?  Too bad.

 

The solution is simple:  stay the f### out of my home unless invited in.

 

Locked doors mean keep out.

Grand Master

Dashel

Posted
Posted

I think when it's all said and done, this particular case will probably be one where a no knock warrant was not needed and they probably really didn't need to hit the house anyway.  However there will still be times where police will need that tactical advantage for their lives and the lives of people inside of the home, that a no knock warrant gives them.

 

In what circumstances is that tactical advantage necessary?

 

What rational person can come to the conclusion that coupling a very confrontational tactic, almost always being carried out by a paramilitary team, over drug warrants is a good idea besides some very bored cops?  Damn that indoor plumbing.

Grand Master

Ryoken

Posted
Posted

In what circumstances is that tactical advantage necessary?

 

What rational person can come to the conclusion that coupling a very confrontational tactic, almost always being carried out by a paramilitary team, over drug warrants is a good idea besides some very bored cops?  Damn that indoor plumbing.

It's not an uncommon tactic, especially in hitting drug cases.

 

The risk of someone seeing you and shooting first, is drastically lower than knocking and saying search warrant, where in many of these places, would result in several people inside arming themselves and shooting, as they have nothing to lose.

 

But as this shows, it's not without risk.. it's just the lesser of two evils.

Experienced

blerk

Posted
Posted

When they do no knock warrants, they still have on full gear that identifies themselves as police, still announce police as they enter at the same time that they are smashing the door, so this "good citizen" knew who was coming in when they came in.  I don't know about you, but I don't see most burglars breaking into homes these days wearing full tactical gear, don't think I've seen a single news story about that yet.  So if somebody in full tactical gear is coming through your door or window, I think we can all agree that you've ###### somebody from a government agency off and you know full well who you are shooting at when you pickup a gun in response.

 

At 5am, you're mostly asleep, you hear someone breaking into your house, you don't automatically assume it's the police. If your first thought of a loud noise and intruders at 5am is that the police are here - that's more worrying for the state of society than anything else really, because you must live in some s*itty oppressive place with a terrible police force for you to just accept it's the police. 

 

Also - it's dark, and you can't really tell that the tactical gear that the police is wearing is actually tactical gear. 

Rising Star

Cheatyface

Posted
Posted

So you just compared cops to war criminals. Nice :rolleyes:

 

If SWAT teams and PDs wanna play wargames in their jurisdictions, then let the shoe be worn. ANYONE who uses "I was just doing my job." as an excuse for doing something wrong, deserves w/e happens to them. "Legal" and "right" aren't always the same thing. Cops can participate in civil disobedience and refuse to do something if the feel it's wrong, just like anyone else, unfortunately too many cops choose to be "law enforcers" rather then "protectors and servants of the people".

Grand Master

macrosslover

Posted
Posted

At 5am, you're mostly asleep, you hear someone breaking into your house, you don't automatically assume it's the police. If your first thought of a loud noise and intruders at 5am is that the police are here - that's more worrying for the state of society than anything else really, because you must live in some s*itty oppressive place with a terrible police force for you to just accept it's the police. 

 

Also - it's dark, and you can't really tell that the tactical gear that the police is wearing is actually tactical gear. 

That's a fair assessment, however the reason that most tactical teams choose that time is the increased likelihood of someone being sleep and being able to take advantage of that element of surprise.  The seal team that killed Osama didn't hit him in broad daylight, that would have just been a stupid tactical decision.  SWAT teams try to use similar tactics within the confines of the law, which is why they couldn't just put a stick of explosive on the side of the house and just blow a wall open.

 

If SWAT teams and PDs wanna play wargames in their jurisdictions, then let the shoe be worn. ANYONE who uses "I was just doing my job." as an excuse for doing something wrong, deserves w/e happens to them. "Legal" and "right" aren't always the same thing. Cops can participate in civil disobedience and refuse to do something if the feel it's wrong, just like anyone else, unfortunately too many cops choose to be "law enforcers" rather then "protectors and servants of the people".

to be protect and serve the people you have to enforce the law, which is their job, the two aren't mutually exclusive.  It's unlikely the police just randomly got up and said let's mess with this guy.  They likely responded to complainants from others in the neighborhood about this house/person.  They did their investigation, determined that they had enough to go get a warrant and then they got a warrant which made it legal for them to enter.   You might not like a no knock warrant, you might not like a judge giving them a warrant period under any circumstances, but they need to have a good reason to get that warrant in the first place, so it's not like they can just go up to the judge and say give us this warrant.  As someone said before, cops can't choose to ignore somebody committing a felony, they have to do something.  Even if it's to prove that the felony did not happen, they need to conduct an investigation a minimum.

Enthusiast

Bigkaye

Posted
Posted

Good. I find it funny how hes held on capital murder, but if Joe Blow addict broke in it'd be self-defence. Glad their intel was bad, but still, now hes in jail anyway so win-win. They found no drugs, what the warrant was for, and the SWAT team botched the process by getting members killed. The guy shouldn't have a bond, especially $3 million. I hope he takes the people who ordered this to the cleaners.

Grand Master

macoman

Posted
Posted

Hold on... I think Mr. Guy is in big trouble.... If I am not mistaking, he can shoot someone inside your home but only if your life is in danger... his life was not in danger, he could ask "who is there". Not reason to shoot anyone inside your house if they are not attempting to kill you.

Grand Master

macoman

Posted
Posted

just wait until the criminals start breaking into houses shouting 'we're the police, we have a warrant!' and having the residents not know what to do until it's too late....

I am not saying that, you can stay alert with your gun but not fire anything that move in your house.... what if your brother or son is trying to surprise you and bang! killed.

Grand Master

macrosslover

Posted
Posted

just wait until the criminals start breaking into houses shouting 'we're the police, we have a warrant!' and having the residents not know what to do until it's too late....

some already do that.  It's plenty of stories of people imitating the police, to either rob a drug house or other people under the guise of being the police serving a warrant.  Nearly all of the time they just get some cheap knock off stuff to make them look like police, never have I seen them in full tactical gear.

 

There was that one case in Detroit, where actual officers, were robbing people.

Grand Master

ramesees

Posted
Posted

I am not saying that, you can stay alert with your gun but not fire anything that move in your house.... what if your brother or son is trying to surprise you and bang! killed.

 

At 5am whilst making a lot of noise and commotion ?

 

If thats your idea of a surprise visit then you need to have a word with yourself.

 

I wouldnt care if the person was my brother - if he pulled this stunt in the middle of the night he is getting his ass kicked for not knowing better.

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