Nearly 1K developers sign letter to end intolerance in the games community

[The_Decryptor Veteran]

Yeah the death threats are over the line. Best thing to do is to ignore feminists. They can't be reasoned with.

Yeah, those crazy women wanting equality, why can't they just listen to reason and understand men are just better?

[Luc2k]

Yeah, those crazy women wanting equality, why can't they just listen to reason and understand men are just better?

Can't speak for other women, but I highly doubt Anita Sarkeesian cares for it really. Where's the male equivalent of this boring game concept for example?

 

[+Red King Subscriber²]

Watched this person drone on and on about objectification of women in games.

I wonder how she feels about the porn industry.

[taim]

Has she said anything about the celebrity leaks, or does she only care about fictional women?

[123456789A]

Yeah, those crazy women wanting equality, why can't they just listen to reason and understand men are just better?

 

You really think this is about "equality"?

[theyarecomingforyou]

You really think this is about "equality"?

Yes, that's literally what this is about.

 

Sexism is rampant in video games, where all too often women play overly sexualised, minor roles while men play the heroes. Ironically Tomb Raider, which started out as part of the problem, is one of the few franchises to feature an intelligent, strong woman in the lead role without any sexual undertones. The games industry needs to do a lot more to improve the depiction of women. The misogynist attacks on this woman are completely unacceptable.

[Lovell]

I think censorship is necessary for people who dont know the difference between there, they're, and their.

Im kidding !!!  ;)

 

I know it annoys me to but when I start typing they all become the same  :pinch:

 

 

Yes, that's literally what this is about.

 

Sexism is rampant in video games, where all too often women play overly sexualised, minor roles while men play the heroes. Ironically Tomb Raider, which started out as part of the problem, is one of the few franchises to feature an intelligent, strong woman in the lead role without any sexual undertones. The games industry needs to do a lot more to improve the depiction of women. The misogynist attacks on this woman are completely unacceptable.

 

That has more to do with society as a whole than just video games, I'd still say films are worse, while the strong hulking hero fights off the enemy the poor fragile woman hides in a corner crying, I think TV has definitely done more to change this image than films and games have, it's just people want a mirror image of themselves which is why they're mostly white and male, look at the amount of non white/male characters.

[Advent]

Why are there so many journalists and people referring to gamers like they're either a race or all one in the same? Every story, tweet or mention of this entire event keeps using gamers as the be all end all way to describe the foul voiced opinions of those which the majority already disagrees with. Gamers by definition is simply one who plays games. Yet somehow this simple word has become to mean whatever the loudest voice wants to make it. Since it's related, I'll mention the the same can be said for feminism. Feminism is defined as "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men". Yet some feminist (those who support feminism by definition) who are considered extreme or may say something others disagree with end up with the same treatment: being called bigots or insert female slur here. As if somehow just because they believe in equal rights for women and some of those who believe in the same thing are crazy, automatically all feminists are crazy. That's not how that works. It's not even just that though. The bulk of the derogatory use of the word gamer seems to be in reference to these people who are making extreme threats. There comes a time when you would think people would be able to tell the difference there between calling someone a gamer and calling them a maniac. Yet some how people have resorted to unofficially changing the definition of a word to fit whatever their topic is. 

 

I just don't get this. While the same tactics aren't new in that it's sadly still seen in modern news reporting dealing with race; I don't know maybe I just expected more from people in 2014. The other sad part of this is talking about it. Having a true discussion about the issues being presented. It doesn't seem to matter what medium you pick there will be someone or a group waiting to not not allow you or others to discuss it. Or worse an entire discussion being deleted (or censored if you want to call it that). Why? You can't say "We need to talk about this" and then not let anyone talk about it. That's not how a discussion works. I can understand deleting the trolls, hate speech and threats. But normal discussion? Do that enough and by the word's very definition you've got yourself oppression. Which the general public seems to agree is a bad thing. One last thing I wanted to mention regarding trying to discuss this is the ad hominem fallacy which seems to pop up in these discussions. I've see it happening to every possible category the other side deems you to be apart of whether that be a feminist, a gamer, a female, a male, straight or gay, religious, or whatever else you name it. If someone is talking about how they don't like the over sexualization of females in video games you don't come out of the left field screaming "Well you're a feminist so I'm going to ignore everything you have to say". It's rude and does nothing to further discussion.

 

Sorry if this was a bit long and slightly off topic or if there are any grammar mistakes etc.

Edit: Fixed some grammar.

[123456789A]

Yes, that's literally what this is about.

 

Sexism is rampant in video games, where all too often women play overly sexualised, minor roles while men play the heroes. Ironically Tomb Raider, which started out as part of the problem, is one of the few franchises to feature an intelligent, strong woman in the lead role without any sexual undertones. The games industry needs to do a lot more to improve the depiction of women. The misogynist attacks on this woman are completely unacceptable.

 

If they're so concerned about that, how about some feminists get together and create a game studio and see if it's a marketable concept. I think it is. But they shouldn't expect everyone to cater to their wants. I think kittens are underrepresented in video games, but I don't try to bully developers into creating kitten games.

[Setnom]

This is an interesting read: http://nastythingssaidabout.wordpress.com/2014/08/26/the-terrible-misogyny-in-the-games-industry/

It's a HUGE wall of text, but worth it.

 

This is my opinion:

- These violent threats are wrong and must stop;

- She has a point regarding the role of women in games, BUT...;

- She takes scenes out of context and/or makes stuff up just to further her arguments. Worthwhile cause, terrible way to go about it.

[theyarecomingforyou]

If they're so concerned about that, how about some feminists get together and create a game studio and see if it's a marketable concept. I think it is. But they shouldn't expect everyone to cater to their wants. I think kittens are underrepresented in video games, but I don't try to bully developers into creating kitten games.

Or they could appeal directly to game developers, as they have done.

[DirtyLarry Veteran]

Why are there so many journalists and people referring to gamers like they're either a race or all one in the same? Every story, tweet or mention of this entire event keeps using gamers as the be all end all way to describe the foul voiced opinions of those which the majority already disagrees with. Gamers by definition is simply one who plays games. Yet somehow this simple word has become to mean whatever the loudest voice wants to make it. Since it's related, I'll mention the the same can be said for feminism. Feminism is defined as "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men". Yet some feminist (those who support feminism by definition) who are considered extreme or may say something others disagree with end up with the same treatment: being called bigots or insert female slur here. As if somehow just because they believe in equal rights for women and some of those who believe in the same thing are crazy, automatically all feminists are crazy. That's not how that works. It's not even just that though. The bulk of the derogatory use of the word gamer seems to be in reference to these people who are making extreme threats. There comes a time when you would think people would be able to tell the difference there between calling someone a gamer and calling them a maniac. Yet some how people have resorted to unofficially changing the definition of a word to fit whatever their topic is. 

 

I just don't get this. While the same tactics aren't new in that it's sadly still seen in modern news reporting dealing with race; I don't know maybe I just expected more from people in 2014. The other sad part of this is talking about it. Having a true discussion about the issues being presented. It doesn't seem to matter what medium you pick there will be someone or a group waiting to not not allow you or others to discuss it. Or worse an entire discussion being deleted (or censored if you want to call it that). Why? You can't say "We need to talk about this" and then not let anyone talk about it. That's not how a discussion works. I can understand deleting the trolls, hate speech and threats. But normal discussion? Do that enough and by the word's very definition you've got yourself oppression. Which the general public seems to agree is a bad thing. One last thing I wanted to mention regarding trying to discuss this is the ad hominem fallacy which seems to pop up in these discussions. I've see it happening to every possible category the other side deems you to be apart of whether that be a feminist, a gamer, a female, a male, straight or gay, religious, or whatever else you name it. If someone is talking about how they don't like the over sexualization of females in video games you don't come out of the left field screaming "Well you're a feminist so I'm going to ignore everything you have to say". It's rude and does nothing to further discussion.

 

Sorry if this was a bit long and slightly off topic or if there are any grammar mistakes etc.

Edit: Fixed some grammar.

I agree 110%. In fact I wrote this on another forum. Here is my take about being called a gamer and calling myself a gamer...

 

I am no doubt a gamer. I will be 40 years old this December, and I have been playing video games since I was 4 years old, or for those doing the math, since 1978.

 

I call myself a gamer as I enjoy playing video games. That is all.

 

Here is why.

I can say with the utmost of certainty the following statements are absolute facts.

 

There are ###### who play video games.

There are idiots that play video games.

There are racists that play video games.

There are sexists that play video games.

There are douchebags that play video games.

There are very bad people who play video games.

There are also nice people who play video games.

There are also very smart people who play video games.

There are also good people who play video games.

 

I think you get my point.

All types of people play video games. ALL TYPES.

 

As such, I equate calling myself "a gamer" to referring to myself as "a white male."

It really does not mean a damn thing in letting you know who I am as a person.

 

So I am a gamer because I play video games.

 

However I am not a gamer if that means I somehow side and relate with everyone else who also calls themselves a gamer.

 

Therefore for all intents and purposes, I am not "A Gamer."

I am someone who likes to play video games.

 

In regards to the OT...

I have a very big problem with trying to say "all gamers are this" or "all gamers are that."

No. Some people who play videogames are this. Some people that play videogames are that.

If sexism needs to stop in video games, that is because it needs to stop in society. Gamers are just random people who are a part of society. It is not like we are all the same and all believe the same things because we happen to play video games.

 

Alas this is the reason why my favorite hobby just continues to disappoint me more and more these days. It has gotten to big for its own good. Just the fact video game "journalism" is such a huge industry right now really says it all. Really at its essence there are 3 things that should constantly be discussed when talking about video games.

1. Game is Announced
2. Game is Previewed by someone or multiple people
3. Game is Released and Reviewed

Naturally there would be other news like new hardware or new studio is formed, but all of this other ###### about people's personal lives and their beliefs on the state of affairs in the world?

Everything else is superficial. Does not really matter, yet is reported on because games are now such a big, serious, business. It is out of control.

[123456789A]

Or they could appeal directly to game developers, as they have done.

 

So, bullying and shaming them.

 

No, I think they should create their own games if that's what they want. Don't expect others to cater to you. You say the same thing of 3% market share Windows Phone. Feminists represent an even smaller percentage than that.

[theyarecomingforyou]

So, bullying and shaming them.

Should developers be shamed for portraying women in a sexist manner? Absolutely.

 

No, I think they should create their own games if that's what they want. Don't expect others to cater to you.

That doesn't address the problem, that only exacerbates it. It makes much more sense to expose the issue and seek to remedy it. Nobody is forcing developers or publishers to take action but social pressure is an effective tool for change.

 

Feminists represent an even smaller percentage than that.

Feminists?defined as those "advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men"?represent the majority of society. I don't know anyone that would argue that women deserve fewer rights. I fully support any campaign to improve the depiction of women in video games. In fact I also support the same thing of men, who are too often depicted as macho and aggressive.

 

You don't seem to understand what feminism is.

[Emn1ty]

Yes, that's literally what this is about.

 

Sexism is rampant in video games, where all too often women play overly sexualised, minor roles while men play the heroes. Ironically Tomb Raider, which started out as part of the problem, is one of the few franchises to feature an intelligent, strong woman in the lead role without any sexual undertones. The games industry needs to do a lot more to improve the depiction of women. The misogynist attacks on this woman are completely unacceptable.

 

The issue here is that by the mere fact it is a woman in a video game that isn't dressed like a girl from the 20's is sexual in nature to an extreme feminist. Heck, looking at women to them constitutes rape.

 

I don't like inequality, I don't like sexism. I dislike hypocrites and people imposing themselves on others because they have nothing better to do with their time. I'm all for equality, but lets examine their idea of equality. Men are wrong, women are right. Pretty much sums it up. Where's the equality in that?

 

There are many games that feature shirtless, completely sculpted and badass male protagonists and yet I don't see guys yelling about over-sexualization on that front. I'm not a perfectly cut guy, so isn't that sexist? That women expect all men to be 6' tall and ripped like Arnold? Oh wait, no. It can't be sexist. Because you can't be sexist against men, right? (so says the feminist extremists) Pot, meet kettle. Double standards are fun.

 

There's two sides to every coin and to just assume that women are the only ones getting the short end of the stick in this industry is just naive.  Sex. Sells. On both sides. We effectively can't even recreate classic shakespearean stories since they, too would be sexist. Heck... pretty much anything predating this century is sexist.

[theyarecomingforyou]

The issue here is that by the mere fact it is a woman in a video game that isn't dressed like a girl from the 20's is sexual in nature to an extreme feminist.

No. :|

 

Heck, looking at women to them constitutes rape.

No.  :|

 

I'm all for equality, but lets examine their idea of equality. Men are wrong, women are right. Pretty much sums it up.

No.  :|

 

There are many games that feature shirtless, completely sculpted and badass male protagonists and yet I don't see guys yelling about over-sexualization on that front.

That's a legitimate issue and people are critical of that too. I'm fed up of shallow, cliched games like Gears Of War and Call Of Duty. I think it's a shame that people?men and women both?aren't more vocal about it.

 

Oh wait, no. It can't be sexist. Because you can't be sexist against men, right?

Stop it. Feminists want equality, not superiority. If something is prejudicial to men that doesn't benefit feminists.

 

Pot, meet kettle. Double standards are fun.

No, it's you projecting opinions they don't hold onto them.

 

There's two sides to every coin and to just assume that women are the only ones getting the short end of the stick in this industry is just naive.  Sex. Sells. On both sides. We effectively can't even recreate classic shakespearean stories since they, too would be sexist. Heck... pretty much anything predating this century is sexist.

That has nothing to do with feminists seeking to improve the depiction of women in video games. In fact feminists should be an example to men and should make people think about improving the depiction of men in video games. I for one am sick of men having to be overly macho and muscular, the lack of diversity (racial, sexual preference, fashion, social groups), the lack of non-American voice actors, the over reliance on violence and war, etc.

 

The Walking Dead is a great example of a socially progressive game, as finally we see a young girl depicted as something other than a helpless victim. We need more like that. It's sad that you don't see gay characters in leading roles in video games or Hollywood movies, women starring in comic book movies, etc. The media does a bad job of representing society.

[trooper11]

I think one of the problems with this debate has been using extreme cases to portray everyone on that side as wrong. The tone used by the various bloggers and those putting out videos can be far too harsh, which only results in an equally, or more extreme, reaction in the other direction. That does not push the debate forward, it just leads to getting stuck in the mud.

There is in fact a middle ground that acknowledges there are many games that can be pointed to as not falling into the standard tropes of writing/video game design. On the other hand, there are games that portray women in a negative light, and you have every right to criticize such games if you feel they go too far. Everyone also has to realize that many situations that some consider offensive can be not offensive at all to others. Its not often black and white. There are some areas that a majority would feel is wrong, but then there are gray areas that lead to bigger debates.

If we, as consumers, want more games that portray women, men, minorities, etc, in a certain light, then we must speak with our wallets and not buy into the games that do not meet our standards. I think its fine to appeal to developers, but ultimately, the appeal must go to gamers. Developers are going to tend to offer gamers that content that has been popular. I think its a bit unfair to trash developers for delivering content that gamers buy. I also think its a bit unfair to attack gamers that might play a game you find offensive. If there is one thing that this debate shows, its that everyone has a different definition of offense and that makes it very hard for anyone creating media to avoid all of the possible scenarios.

Personally, I think the industry is already open enough to get the content anyone wants. I think the growth of indie options means that if your a gamer that is looking for a particular style of game, or a particular style of main character in a game, you have a much better chance of finding that now than 10 years ago. The variety is there. If you personally want to find more games of a certain style, then seek out developers that are trying to craft those games and support them. If no such developer exists, then do what you can to encourage someone to take up the challenge. Not every game is going to portray a main character the way you want, just as not every movie, book, or song is going to connect with you, and that's ok. As long as there is a healthy variety of content, that should be good enough for most gamers.

Ultimately, the presence of any main character (whatever gender, race, etc) in a game needs to happen organically to result in a good game. The last thing we should want is to see developers making a big deal about the race, sex, etc, of the main character just because they will get high praise from the gaming media or the internet community. Having a gay or straight main character should ultimate have zero impact on the overall game unless the game is specifically exploring that aspect of the character. Same for a male or female role, etc, etc. The goal should be that the race, gender, sexual orientation, etc, become background info as 'mundane' as listing the age or hair color of a character. Those aspects of a character can be exposed in much more subtle ways that show a more realistic picture of a person.

That has nothing to do with feminists seeking to improve the depiction of women in video games. In fact feminists should be an example to men and should make people think about improving the depiction of men in video games. I for one am sick of men having to be overly macho and muscular, the lack of diversity (racial, sexual preference, fashion, social groups), the lack of non-American voice actors, the over reliance on violence and war, etc.

I'm glad you mention this point because its something I find interesting. People like to say that violence in video games has little to no impact of those that partake in such games. However, I've seen many articles and posts from people around the net that would claim that the way different groups are portrayed in video games does in fact impact the gamers that play them. Well you can't have it both ways. If one can influence a consumer, then the other can as well. We as a society have to wake up to the hypocrisy and decide which is true: Do games have a lasting influence on gamers or not?

As far as the media's hand in the issue, I have to point out again that while the content creators are partially to blame, its the consumers of that content that keep such content coming. Whether that is a movie, book, or game, if enough consumers buy it, then content creators will see a reason to create more of it. I'm not angry at the content creators for supplying content people want. All we need is a healthy variety of content.

As long as there are enough games that offer the experience you want, then the fact that other games exist that do not is a far smaller deal. So let's encourage the variety, support those that do give you the content you want, leading to more developers seeing the potential to tap into.

[+E.Worm Jimmy Subscriber¹]

 

http://youtu.be/4ZPSrwedvsg?list=UU7Edgk9RxP7Fm7vjQ1d-cDA

This thing?

 

 

 

ohh god.     when she JUST STARTED talking I disliked her profusely.    Even at first when I saw her face move I already did not like her...  before she said anything of content.    Her who persona screams to me that I would not like her personality.. 

maybe because i have met girls who have the same expressions and they all turned out to have very unattractive personalities.

 

no wonder people do not like her, even before her message.  eghhhhh :x

[+E.Worm Jimmy Subscriber¹]

just like in real life, i don't fight monsters, kill enemy combatants, fly spaceships, ride tanks, teleport and steal cars...  

i can see where REALITY and where GAME is. in real life,  of course i do not objectify women!   anyone who learns to do it from a video game is a crazy idiot, and just as likely will learn to steal and kill as well!

 

this games she is showing, games designed primary for MEN, add this layer of FANTASY  --  this is not even a MOVIE. in movie it is real people, so it is harder for you brain to tell the fact from fiction

but video game?  come on.    

[taim]

Daytime television is mostly geared towards women, isn't that sexist?

[+Red King Subscriber²]

The ability to bang a hooker then kill her and take your money back is one of the reasons video games are awesome.

There is nothing wrong with strip bars and sex workers, it is part of the setting / story. Removing such elements is censorship of art and denial of the world we live in.

An NPC is an object and most of them don't have much humanity in the first place.

Women are second place citizens in real world and are portrayed as such in video games.

Video games are aimed at heterosexual men. Sex appeal sells.

A game with sexualized men would not appeal to most gamers.

Imagine the following games without sex: Max Payne 3, Witcher, New Vegas.

Also mistreatment of women in real world, historical, or dystopian setting is just reality.

[123456789A]

Should developers be shamed for portraying women in a sexist manner? Absolutely.

 

Examples?

[taim]

The ability to bang a hooker then kill her and take your money back is one of the reasons video games are awesome.

There is nothing wrong with strip bars and sex workers, it is part of the setting / story. Removing such elements is censorship of art and denial of the world we live in.

An NPC is an object and most of them don't have much humanity in the first place.

Women are second place citizens in real world and are portrayed as such in video games.

Video games are aimed at heterosexual men. Sex appeal sells.

A game with sexualized men would not appeal to most gamers.

Imagine the following games without sex: Max Payne 3, Witcher, New Vegas.

Also mistreatment of women in real world, historical, or dystopian setting is just reality.

They want the hookers to be "Pretty Woman" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100405/

[theyarecomingforyou]

Examples?

You were the one talking about developers being shamed by feminists. It was a general statement, one that stands on its own - if developers are producing sexist games?which they are?then they should be shamed. Where are the male prostitutes in GTA? Why are all the characters in Dead Or Alive hyper-sexualised? Why are the female characters in League Of Legends scantily dressed and in sexual poses? How many first-person shooters have female protagonists?

 

Publishers need to stop playing it safe and start pushing the boundaries, as is the case in other forms of media (music, films, television, etc). Those that perpetuate outdated, misleading or offensive stereotypes should be exposed and face criticism. What I don't understand is why you think feminists are in the wrong for pointing out the problems with the video games industry.

[trag3dy]

Be careful guys, some one might get offended. Everything has to be safe for everyone.