Stop thinking in binary Desktop vs. Tablet UI design

[redfish]

So, I updated to the latest build of Windows 10, and I saw they took out the WiFi fly-out for the Desktop. It now goes to the Settings window for Network settings.

 

Maybe eventually, there'll be a popup, like we have for Notifications and Search.

 

But, why though? The fly-out was very elegant. It would fly out right where the Notification area was, and because it would take up the length of the screen your cursor was right over it, and when you clicked anywhere else on the screen it would go away. It worked, and it was very nice. Compared to that, a popup feels very cramped and very unpolished. The Notifications popup is not impressive, and neither is the Search popup. I'm thinking these would work better as fly-outs as well.

 

I'm happy that Microsoft is working on making the OS more flexible for everyone, but I'm not happy that they're assuming these things are not "Desktop features" but "Tablet features" and deciding that nobody on the Desktop wants them.

 

As a laptop user, I also liked the idea of the whole Settings fly-out, because you had things like WiFi, Brightness, Keyboard layout etc all in a very accessible place, and this list could be easily expanded to include more settings as time went on. Of course, I have some of these on the Notification area, but not all of them and even if I put them in the "hidden" state, that's not a very elegant way to use them.

 

I also still use the full screen Start Screen, just because I like the ability of the Start Screen as an app launcher, to arrange my apps into groups. Hopefully groups and so on will eventually make its way into the Start Menu too, but I'll probably still be using the full screen because I'll have it fully populated where I have to scroll it, and my screen isn't that huge; its a laptop.

 

Currently, its annoying on the Start Screen to have to go into a tiny two-item context menu to get into settings. The whole context menu on the Start Screen also makes it more clumsy, because in order to select more than one item you have to go into the arrange mode (press Space). The taskbar being up by default also makes scrolling more difficult. (And in fact sometimes its sticky, and doesn't go away, or sticky and hard to bring back up).

 

It feels like they crippled Start Screen use for Desktop users because they decided Desktop users don't want it. Plus, I don't see how they're going to put group functions on the Start Menu in any elegant way with context menus. Are we going to have to press Space on the Start Menu to arrange things, just like on the Start Screen?

 

Sidebar-ish like RT apps also made sense in some instances over complicated window snapping.

 

Look, there are many good things Microsoft is doing. Its good that RT apps can be windowed, and its good that people have the flexibility of using Start as a menu rather than as a full screen. But seriously, why are people so obsessed with windows, popups, and context menus for Desktop UI design? They simply aren't always the best UI choice. This has nothing to do with touch.

 

"Continuum" so far seems designed to be a binary Tablet vs. Desktop concept, and then transitional UI where a PC can act as both a tablet and desktop computers. This isn't good, it assumes some features are Tablet features and some features are Desktop features. They need to get out of this binary way of thinking. They're being too reactionary so far, listening too much to the biggest cranks, and doing a reverse 100% on design, instead of finding a smart middle-ground.

[a1ien]

You picked a bad example - the wifi flyout is one of the things in Windows 8 that annoys me often.

 

In previous versions of Windows, if I reach for the volume but accidently click Network, I just click again and it's gone, and I move the cursor a little to volume. In windows 8, if I accidently click Network, the flyout covers the button and I have to move the mouse and click somewhere, then move back to volume and click again (this is another chance to miss).

 

It's a minor annoyance, but I did notice it. Why does the flyout even have to cover the taskbar?? Anyways, the flyout is only any good for touch. I hope it's still there for touch.

[TAZMINATOR]

Well, they can't please everyone.

 

They should add the options for mobile or desktop so each user can choose how they like it.

[redfish]

You picked a bad example - the wifi flyout is one of the things in Windows 8 that annoys me often.

 

In previous versions of Windows, if I reach for the volume but accidently click Network, I just click again and it's gone, and I move the cursor a little to volume. In windows 8, if I accidently click Network, the flyout covers the button and I have to move the mouse and click somewhere, then move back to volume and click again (this is another chance to miss).

 

It's a minor annoyance, but I did notice it. Why does the flyout even have to cover the taskbar?? Anyways, the flyout is only any good for touch. I hope it's still there for touch.

 

Should the UI should really be designed around accidental clicking?

 

IMO, the flyout was just nicer UI-wise. 

 

I've noticed by the way that I can't even access the flyout if I go to the charms bar by Windows+C, it still brings me to the Settings window.

[Dot Matrix]

Look, there are many good things Microsoft is doing. Its good that RT apps can be windowed, and its good that people have the flexibility of using Start as a menu rather than as a full screen. But seriously, why are people so obsessed with windows, popups, and context menus for Desktop UI design? They simply aren't always the best UI choice. This has nothing to do with touch.

The WiFi thing is only temporary.

[redfish]

The WiFi thing is only temporary.

 

Though likely replaced with a popup.

 

My point was the flyouts were nicer than popups.

[abysal]

 

and when you clicked anywhere else on the screen it would go away

 

 

IMO, that was a flaw. If I wanted to copy credentials, I could not click off of the "fly-out" to do so, with out it closing and loosing the already entered username for instance. Hopefully they come up with a better design. Personally I thought the Windows 7 style connection windows worked fine - although only on the desktop, they were too small for most tablet / touch devices. So I can see why it was designed (the fly-out) the way it was in Windows 8.

[redfish]

IMO, that was a flaw. If I wanted to copy credentials, I could not click off of the "fly-out" to do so, with out it closing and loosing the already entered username for instance. Hopefully they come up with a better design. Personally I thought the Windows 7 style connection windows worked fine - although only on the desktop, they were too small for most tablet / touch devices. So I can see why it was designed (the fly-out) the way it was in Windows 8.

 

True, but they could have always modified it to play better with those desktop case-uses.

 

I don't think small is necessarily good on desktops either. It seems some power users do like it, but thinking as a UI designer, I find big is sometimes better design. The Office UI has also been moving away from dialogue boxes to other ways of presenting things. Print/Open/Info etc are now moved into the File screen. The Options window and the dialogue boxes that still are in the UI (Font/Paragraph) feel out of place and like they need updating.

[PGHammer]

 

So, I updated to the latest build of Windows 10, and I saw they took out the WiFi fly-out for the Desktop. It now goes to the Settings window for Network settings.

 

Maybe eventually, there'll be a popup, like we have for Notifications and Search.

 

But, why though? The fly-out was very elegant. It would fly out right where the Notification area was, and because it would take up the length of the screen your cursor was right over it, and when you clicked anywhere else on the screen it would go away. It worked, and it was very nice. Compared to that, a popup feels very cramped and very unpolished. The Notifications popup is not impressive, and neither is the Search popup. I'm thinking these would work better as fly-outs as well.

 

I'm happy that Microsoft is working on making the OS more flexible for everyone, but I'm not happy that they're assuming these things are not "Desktop features" but "Tablet features" and deciding that nobody on the Desktop wants them.

 

As a laptop user, I also liked the idea of the whole Settings fly-out, because you had things like WiFi, Brightness, Keyboard layout etc all in a very accessible place, and this list could be easily expanded to include more settings as time went on. Of course, I have some of these on the Notification area, but not all of them and even if I put them in the "hidden" state, that's not a very elegant way to use them.

 

I also still use the full screen Start Screen, just because I like the ability of the Start Screen as an app launcher, to arrange my apps into groups. Hopefully groups and so on will eventually make its way into the Start Menu too, but I'll probably still be using the full screen because I'll have it fully populated where I have to scroll it, and my screen isn't that huge; its a laptop.

 

Currently, its annoying on the Start Screen to have to go into a tiny two-item context menu to get into settings. The whole context menu on the Start Screen also makes it more clumsy, because in order to select more than one item you have to go into the arrange mode (press Space). The taskbar being up by default also makes scrolling more difficult. (And in fact sometimes its sticky, and doesn't go away, or sticky and hard to bring back up).

 

It feels like they crippled Start Screen use for Desktop users because they decided Desktop users don't want it. Plus, I don't see how they're going to put group functions on the Start Menu in any elegant way with context menus. Are we going to have to press Space on the Start Menu to arrange things, just like on the Start Screen?

 

Sidebar-ish like RT apps also made sense in some instances over complicated window snapping.

 

Look, there are many good things Microsoft is doing. Its good that RT apps can be windowed, and its good that people have the flexibility of using Start as a menu rather than as a full screen. But seriously, why are people so obsessed with windows, popups, and context menus for Desktop UI design? They simply aren't always the best UI choice. This has nothing to do with touch.

 

"Continuum" so far seems designed to be a binary Tablet vs. Desktop concept, and then transitional UI where a PC can act as both a tablet and desktop computers. This isn't good, it assumes some features are Tablet features and some features are Desktop features. They need to get out of this binary way of thinking. They're being too reactionary so far, listening too much to the biggest cranks, and doing a reverse 100% on design, instead of finding a smart middle-ground.

 

The flyout is an option - and can be reached from the same spot in PC Settings (there is even a "click me" that activates the flyout).

 

The only ones insisting on either/or are the anti-touch zealots - and that is despite folks like DConnell and myself pointing out the advantages of ModernUI to mousers (and trackpad users).

 

The issue now that the Technical Preview has landed is that the REAL excuses for some of the zealotry of the anti-touch position is coming out - and it's looking rather ugly.  Some of it is indeed aversion to change, and goes by any number of guises; the biggest one is "tradition" - contrariwise, the smallest, and most simple, is "laziness" as in "too lazy to learn new things".  However (in my humble opinion) BOTH are bad, and taking either posture can lead to OS moribundity - an OS with a frozen UI (or a desktop environment that doesn't change) can go from robust to dying to dead rather quickly.

Take a hard look at Navigation (in PC Settings) - you can modify some settings away from "classical" toward ModernUI (at least, this was the case with 9841 - I need to look more at it and see what changes there are with 9860).  In fact, PC Settings HAS gained more options, merely from 9841.  There 's also a voice narrator built in (Cortana 0.5, anyone?) with three voice options (one masculine and two feminine) - the settings for THAT are in PC Settings, too.  This Cortana spinoff (called Narrator) has a separate subsettings flyout as well (something I will be investigating through the rest of the week).  I'm actually hoping for vocal interaction as an option - yes, for PCs.

 

I (and several others) had called Windows 8 a re-imagining of how folks can work with their PCs - I may well have severely UNDERestimated the case.  If anything, Windows 8 is what Windows 7 (if not Vista, believe it or not), should have been (and possibly WOULD have been, if the reset of the Windows codebase midway through Longhorn didn't happen).  Each device can have its own settings, despite widespread software commonality - that is the case merely between hardware installs of the Technical Preview, and today.  The only roadblocks are those I throw up myself.  Personal computing is spreading its wings and taking flight - not only is it unshackled, but even how you interact with the hardware is truly yours, and truly personal, in a way that NO previous version of Windows has supported - ever.

 

brianshapiro - it's modifiable - however, you simply have to do it yourself.  What Microsoft HAS done (which it didn't in previous versions of Windows - including 8.1) is unshackle a lot of what had been locked down, even in 8.1  There is now adjustability up the wazoo.  And they haven't even unlocked all the locks yet!

 

What I think will happen, as the Technical Preview gets tested, and shown off (nowhere in the EULA is that sort of thing roadblocked) is that folks will realize that a LOT of things that Windows could have been, it has been prevented from becoming, for a large variety of reasons, and that is going to REALLY get some folks ticked off.  There will be a NEW hew and cry of "Why hasn't Microsoft done something like this sooner?", and I'll be able to point out (without a hint of smugness) that the capability (in a lot of cases) has been in the PC hardware for years - and I'm not referring to touch support, either.  Why have trackpads been roadblocked?  Why has voice-control (or outright voice navigation) been roadblocked?  I'm asking both questions myself.

 

I don't think the "Back in your cage, Windows!" zealots will have any likable answers, either.

[PGHammer]

Well, they can't please everyone.

 

They should add the options for mobile or desktop so each user can choose how they like it.

NOT mobile or desktop.  That "line of thinking" absolutely/positively needs to be tossed into the rubbish bin.

 

Legacy or ModernUI is how it SHOULD be phrased.

 

ModernUI is not a "mobile-first" UI, any more than it is a "touch-first" UI.

 

ModernUI, however, does bring benefits outside the touch space, and lots of them.

 

Yes - ModernUI does have larger landing spaces for pointers - however, how many MOUSE users have mouse-dexterity issues? (Be honest with yourself.)  Those same larger landing spaces are a relief to trackpad users - who will no longer need to take along a mouse to navigate their PC.  Those are two rather significant benefits of ModernUI - and I leverage both every day.

 

ModernUI is just that - modern and neutral.

 

Now, it's also adjustable - to suit YOU.

[redfish]

 

The flyout is an option - and can be reached from the same spot in PC Settings (there is even a "click me" that activates the flyout).

 

I don't see that.. where is it? I did try to get to it through Settings in the Charms bar, and it didn't take me there.

 

I think a lot of the demands for flexibility when Windows 8 came out were legit. There were a lot of ways in which W8 could be more flexible.  Plus some people wanted it to integrate into the Desktop better, which was fair. Others pointed out that some things weren't intuitive by mouse, like dragging the lock screen, which was fair, too. The thing that bothered me was not the want for flexibility or the smart UI critiques but the kind of "this is a touch UI and Microsoft is making the same mistake again" argument. I just think that was wrong. And so far Microsoft seems to be catering to that point of view, and I just don't agree with that direction.

 

 Sinofsky also headed the redesign of Office, and a lot of people had complaints about adjusting to the ribbon interface.

[Active.]

ModernUI is not a "mobile-first" UI, any more than it is a "touch-first" UI.

When did "ModernUI" stop being a touch-first UI?  :huh:

[redfish]

 

I don't see that.. where is it? I did try to get to it through Settings in the Charms bar, and it didn't take me there.

 

 

Oh you have to go to Manage > Additional Settings in order to access it.

[+Warwagon MVC]

The WiFi thing is only temporary.

 

The Wifi Thing "might" be only temporary"

[redfish]

When did "ModernUI" stop being a touch-first UI?  :huh:

 

He means its not only for touch, anymore than its only for mobile. For instance, its also for 10-foot interfaces -- see the XBox interface -- Metro evolved from the Media Center UI. A lot of it also works fine for mouse-and-keyboard, and a lot of people like it on their Desktop computers, even if others don't. It was originally designed from "consumer interface" concepts like Activity Centers back in the XP development cycle.

[PGHammer]

He means its not only for touch, anymore than its only for mobile. For instance, its also for 10-foot interfaces -- see the XBox interface -- Metro evolved from the Media Center UI. A lot of it also works fine for mouse-and-keyboard, and a lot of people like it on their Desktop computers, even if others don't. It was originally designed from "consumer interface" concepts like Activity Centers back in the XP development cycle.

ModernUI has, in fact, never been a touch-first UI.  However, the legacy/classic UI was, in fact, very much a mouse-first UI - as Microsoft itself has been very candid in saying - going back to Windows 9x.

 

In the case of legacy/classic UI, I'm not talking merely touch-hostile, it is also trackpad-hostile, as well.  (How many notebook and laptop users take along mice when using any version of Windows?  Same question applies to ALL other operating systems - including OS X, Linux distributions, Android, etc.)  ModernUI is actually the first UI that is a joy to use with a trackpad - those larger landing spaces for pointers are a relief to those with mouse-dexterity issues, too.  I can take my notebook (with the Technical Preview as only OS, by the by), and NOT have to take along a mouse - how many of the rest of you with notebooks and laptops can say that?  (This isn't a modern notebook - the HP dv9000 originally shipped with Windows Vista!  Modern?  It's anything but.)

 

I have not been a fan of trackpads - largely due to a lack (and I may now have to consider it being a deliberate lack) of native trackpad support in Windows.  That is something that made absolutely zero sense - how long have trackpads been standard in laptops and notebooks?  Yet there it was.  Trackpad support is improved in the Technical Preview over 8.x - look at just the number of trackpad drivers, and connectivity methods - supported in 9841 vs. 8+.  Now, the trackpad support is such that I no longer need (or want to attach) a mouse to my notebook.  Old notebook, old trackpad - and it's taken seven years to get trackpad support right?  Who are we kidding?

[Active.]

ModernUI has, in fact, never been a touch-first UI.   

We've had that discussion before. I will leave it at quoting MS once more:

 

 

 

Windows Store apps are designed to be touch first.

 

Having said that, it seems MS is trying to optimize it more and more for k&m usage. Does the Xbox music app support drag&drop yet?

[redfish]

@Deactivated,

 

Windows Store apps are definitely designed as full-screen apps, which in most use-cases means touch, though I think its useful for terminal style apps, too. Metro IE was basically like a "kiosk mode" IE. Currently you can go to kiosk mode in desktop IE (F11) but the Metro IE was better for that. Full-screen games are either/or.

 

I don't think as a whole Metro was for touch, even though in some cases (lock screen) they didn't do the mouse and keyboard optimization well.

 

I think their marketing department over-emphasized the idea of "touch-first," although in many cases I think they just meant "touch-friendly." (ie not "touch-second")

[PGHammer]

@Deactivated,

 

Windows Store apps are definitely designed as full-screen apps, which in most use-cases means touch, though I think its useful for terminal style apps, too. Metro IE was basically like a "kiosk mode" IE. Currently you can go to kiosk mode in desktop IE (F11) but the Metro IE was better for that. Full-screen games are either/or.

 

I don't think as a whole Metro was for touch, even though in some cases (lock screen) they didn't do the mouse and keyboard optimization well.

 

I think their marketing department over-emphasized the idea of "touch-first," although in many cases I think they just meant "touch-friendly." (ie not "touch-second")

Exactly.  ModernUI (unlike the legacy/classic UI) is neutral - basically favoring no specific interaction method.  However, because it didn't favor anyone, mouse users (who lost favor - remember, mice were the favored control method until 8 showed up) complained, and complained heavily.

 

I compared ModernUI to (of all things) the Civil Rights Act - and touched off a firestorm, if the reaction I got to THAT comment was any judge.  Fortunately, I actually planned ahead - and was ready for it. The Civil Rights Act was SUPPOSED to be about "the same rules for all" - no playing favorites.  (Never mind that it has never been that way in execution OR practice - much to my sorrow.)  ModernUI espouses the very idea of the Civil Rights Act - and actually puts it into practice.  No favorites - and some long under-represented groups gain.  I've been pointing out all day that trackpads are no longer overlooked - you may not need to pack an external mouse if you have the Technical Preview on your laptop or notebook.  (And that comes from running the same TP on an OLD notebook - dating back to Vista - therefore, touch isn't it.)  How long have trackpads been standard on laptops and notebooks?  Mouse users that lack dexterity gain as well - and how many of you fall into that category?  (Be honest with yourself.)  I'm not the greatest mouser in the world - I readily admit that.  Yet I'm no fan (normally) of either touch OR trackpads - which, before 8 - puts me in a first class pickle!  Windows 7 and earlier - despite touch-supporting hardware being available - didn't support such hardware directly - third-party software was required.  Now, along comes ModernUI - and both trackpad users and the less-than-expert mouse users both gain. (Note that neither involves touch-screen usage - yet here they are, taking advantage of ModernUI.)  What I'd REALLY like to ask is that, since it IS showing up that the less-dextrous mousers, and trackpad users, are performing better with both Windows 8+ and the Tech Preview (and this is just among Neowinians), why are the more expert mousers REALLY horked off?

 

1.  Change aversion (disguised as "tradition")?

2.  Anti-civil-rights (mouse-favoritism now, mouse-favoritism forever!)?

 

Look at either argument (in fact, look at BOTH arguments) if they sound rather silly, harken back to the comments certain of you made about the duck.  If it looks silly, and sounds silly, chances are high that it IS rather silly - yet here you are, trying to make that same silly argument.  The question I am asking is, however, quite serious - WHY are you trying to sweep back the tide with a corn broom?

[redfish]

@PGHammer,

 

I think you're overthinking it. People just think the Desktop should give favoritism towards mouse, and the Tablet UI should give favoritism towards tablets, and that if you try to please both with the same interface that its always a compromise for both worlds. Many people believe Microsoft was making the same mistake they did with Windows CE, where they brought the Desktop metaphor to handheld devices.

 

I just think that imagining Desktop and Tablet as two completely different worlds with no crossover elements is just as bad a mistake. In some cases, using the same UI elements makes sense imo.

 

Like I said, I've seen a lot of legitimate critiques of W8. But I've also seen a lot of armchair UI design that has nothing to do with practical use. You need to have context menus to do everything... just because. I've been talking with some about this people who originally criticized W8. One person I know said Microsoft made the desktop experience less productive, saying the UI for mouse users wasn't intuitive or discoverable. I mentioned the flyouts, he said he liked the flyouts, had no problem with them, and would like them to stay.

 

...

 

Btw, concerns about Constitutional problems with the Civil Rights Act were legitimate. ;>

[PGHammer]

@PGHammer,

 

I think you're overthinking it. People just think the Desktop should give favoritism towards mouse, and the Tablet UI should give favoritism towards tablets, and that if you try to please both with the same interface that its always a compromise for both worlds. Many people believe Microsoft was making the same mistake they did with Windows CE, where they brought the Desktop metaphor to handheld devices.

 

I just think that imagining Desktop and Tablet as two completely different worlds with no crossover elements is just as bad a mistake. In some cases, using the same UI elements makes sense imo.

 

Like I said, I've seen a lot of legitimate critiques of W8. But I've also seen a lot of armchair UI design that has nothing to do with practical use. You need to have context menus to do everything... just because. I've been talking with some about this people who originally criticized W8. One person I know said Microsoft made the desktop experience less productive, saying the UI for mouse users wasn't intuitive or discoverable. I mentioned the flyouts, he said he liked the flyouts, had no problem with them, and would like them to stay.

 

...

 

Btw, concerns about Constitutional problems with the Civil Rights Act were legitimate. ;>

I'm not saying that they weren't - all I am saying is that two wrongs (which is pretty much how the CRA was put into practice) don't make a right. (Great idea - horrible implementation; I made the same point about the Affordable Care Act.)

 

While the idea behind the legacy/classic UI made sense when it was originally implemented (Windows 9x and, to an extent, NT4) it never grew to encompass newer methods of interaction with the PC.  As more ways to interact with the PC (including new PC form-factors) came along, that lack of adaptability became more and more obvious.  How much of the failure of Windows Mobile (and even of Windows XP TPC Edition) can be attributed to "refusing to adapt" because the favored would gripe?  It would have really rocked the boat had either (let alone both) actually succeeded - and there were plenty - both outside of, and even within, Microsoft - that had plenty of reason to make sure both failed.

 

Thinking of things in terms of either/or IS bad - and it's even worse when you are working on a regardless-of-hardware operating system.  What you need, instead, is "adjustability" - which IS something that Windows 8 and 8.1 lacked.  Naturally, a regardless-of-hardware OS is something that - in and of itself - will rock plenty of boats, if not whole navies.  (How many folks are all about categories?)  Windows 10+ doesn't really fit one - and a regardless-of-hardware operating system shouldn't.  However, adjustability - to suit hardware, to suit users, to suit what you are doing - IS a gotta-have.  Darn RIGHT this will break a LOT of rice-bowls - I pointed out that with the Developer Preview.  I may well have underestimateed just how much rice will wind up on floors, carpeting, tile, etc.  (Not exactly fun for the owners of the rice bowls - however, they can adapt, or be swept away by the tide.)

[ParadiseLost]

In my opinion it has nothing to do with binary thinking or how you approach the problem: it's just the nature of the problem itself. No single UI can be optimal for both touch and kb/m usage at the same time. You either acknowledge that and keep them separate (the Apple route) or force one of them to serve a dual purpose, being lousy at the other (the Microsoft way). No two ways about it.

[DConnell Member]

When did "ModernUI" stop being a touch-first UI?  :huh:

 

It never was - I used it on m/k only systems for over a year before I got a Surface. And I still prefer to use Modern on my SurfRT with a mouse whenever practical.

 

My high opinion of Modern comes from my experience with it as a traditional system user - tower and laptop with a mouse & keyboard. It actually works better with a mouse than with touch. Or at least it did until that execrable titlebar was added. That supposedly mouse-oriented change actually made Modern harder to use with a mouse, at least for me.

[Mouettus]

Well, they can't please everyone.

 

They should add the options for mobile or desktop so each user can choose how they like it.

Can't please anyone but look at apple. they stil run on 2 different UIs and they're cashing big time on it. Because it simply works. Having one system is a super neat idea so that all apps and software are compiled and run on the same ecosystem. But you HAVE to keep two different UIs. It all went downhill as soon as they started doing a melting pot.

 

Windows' UI has been a mess ever since. Nothing makes sense anymore. After more than 20 years on windows, I'm thinking of switching.

[TAZMINATOR]

Can't please anyone but look at apple. they stil run on 2 different UIs and they're cashing big time on it. Because it simply works. Having one system is a super neat idea so that all apps and software are compiled and run on the same ecosystem. But you HAVE to keep two different UIs. It all went downhill as soon as they started doing a melting pot.

 

Windows' UI has been a mess ever since. Nothing makes sense anymore. After more than 20 years on windows, I'm thinking of switching.

 

That's the reason I keep Windows 7 as long as I can.  :)

 

I have Windows 8.1 on my other laptop for testing. That I am on it now.

 

I watched a keynote about Apple devices not long ago... I like their Mac Mini... I am thinking of getting one.