The Great Modern UI Debate Thread

[Ian S.]

With Microsoft moving forward with Windows 10, I really hope to see a more unified Design language.

[patseguin Global Moderator]

Back in Windows Vista and 7, Microsoft designed a beautiful UI with glass effects that had people excited and talking. It made the UI fun and pleasant to work with. I just don't understand MS's thinking in regressing the UI 20 years to the ugly flat monochrome look. Windows are very ugly looking and the new icons look like they belong in Windows 3.11. The start menu is just plain and horrible to look at. Why do people think it is so trendy to make things flat and ugly?

[sc302 Veteran]

People like simplicity. If it looks complicated people will not flock to it. Windows 8 isn't simple. We can only hope that microsoft truly learned from this and in turn stops making major changes to the ui....People like familiarity and they like new functions, they don't like new functions and completely relearning how to navigate around.

[Dot Matrix]

Back in Windows Vista and 7, Microsoft designed a beautiful UI with glass effects that had people excited and talking. It made the UI fun and pleasant to work with. I just don't understand MS's thinking in regressing the UI 20 years to the ugly flat monochrome look. Windows are very ugly looking and the new icons look like they belong in Windows 3.11. The start menu is just plain and horrible to look at. Why do people think it is so trendy to make things flat and ugly?

Glass is dated at this point. Right now, the trends are to keep things simple and clean. Tbh, the best UI is one that doesn't distract the user. You're not on the machine to stare at the GUI all day, you're there to get work done or to relax to a game or movie.

[onewarmslime]

Dot Matrix, on 05 Feb 2015 - 17:43, said:

Glass is dated at this point. Right now, the trends are to keep things simple and clean. Tbh, the best UI is one that doesn't distract the user. You're not on the machine to stare at the GUI all day, you're there to get work done or to relax to a game or movie.

I don't see how Windows 7 prevented people from doing their work... live tiles are probably way more distracting than transparent windows...

[Kyang]

I don't see how Windows 7 prevented people from doing their work... live tiles are probably way more distracting than transparent windows...

 

Probably not when the tiles are behind a Start button.  I never found the Windows type of translucency very distracting, just cluttered looking under some conditions.  OSX/iOS has a "cleaner" kind of translucency, which helps with readability.

[+E.Worm Jimmy Subscriber¹]

I don't see how Windows 7 prevented people from doing their work... live tiles are probably way more distracting than transparent windows...

 

on that i agree.  solid brightly colored rectangles are much more distrusting then mild and classy transparency.

 

ohh look,  green,  blue,  red,   violet....

[Kyang]

on that i agree.  solid brightly colored rectangles are much more distrusting then mild and classy transparency.

 

ohh look,  green,  blue,  red,   violet....

 

Can't really tell if you're being sarcastic so this post isn't meant to be a counterpoint, just a remark on that line of thought.  Anyone who would be distracted by a few blocks of a single color must go crazy when they look on a screen of regular icons full of many different kinds of colors.

[+E.Worm Jimmy Subscriber¹]

Can't really tell if you're being sarcastic so this post isn't meant to be a counterpoint, just a remark on that line of thought.  Anyone who would be distracted by a few blocks of a single color must go crazy when they look on a screen of regular icons full of many different kinds of colors.

 

actually i was not.   i dislike metro in win8 and i do not like bright, almost neon colors.  and i find windows 7 icons peaceful, appropriate and classy.   not distracting at all.  and transparency could have being adjusted or switched off.

 

 

hopefully my opinion will change with win10.    classic shell is the only thing that makes windows 8 on desktop tolerable.

[patseguin Global Moderator]

Glass is dated at this point. Right now, the trends are to keep things simple and clean. Tbh, the best UI is one that doesn't distract the user. You're not on the machine to stare at the GUI all day, you're there to get work done or to relax to a game or movie.

Well, I guess that is your opinion. It doesn't mean that everyone thinks that. A UI should be beautiful to look at fun to use. I still think MS is being really dumb by dumbing down their UI.

[Ian S.]

Back in Windows Vista and 7, Microsoft designed a beautiful UI with glass effects that had people excited and talking. It made the UI fun and pleasant to work with. I just don't understand MS's thinking in regressing the UI 20 years to the ugly flat monochrome look. Windows are very ugly looking and the new icons look like they belong in Windows 3.11. The start menu is just plain and horrible to look at. Why do people think it is so trendy to make things flat and ugly?

I agree, sort of. The Vista taskbar was one of the prettiest UI designs ever, with the black look, sharp curved edges around the Start button. However the icons, Windows 7 taskbar, combined with glowing windows (vista) and the mimicking glass style (7), the Vista taskbar was lost to history. Flat !=ugly.

 

People like simplicity. If it looks complicated people will not flock to it. Windows 8 isn't simple. We can only hope that microsoft truly learned from this and in turn stops making major changes to the ui....People like familiarity and they like new functions, they don't like new functions and completely relearning how to navigate around.

Wrong. People like familiarity. The icons of Windows 8 were simple, but people are not used to tiles. Windows 8 is simple... on a tablet. The multiple dialog boxes of Windows 9X to Windows 7 were not simple, in fact much of the language and cryptic error messages were complex as ever. Simplification and unification started with Windows 8 and will continue with Windows 10, there is just no denying it. Let's hope they don't forget the small details and little touches of UX and UI. Windows 10 will feel more and more familiar if people begin to spend time with it. I see plenty kids picking up Windows 8 and knowing how to use it.

[sc302 Veteran]

Simple compared to what? Ios, galaxy, Windows 7, ios? It isn't intuitive, that would make it simple. Learning where things are at isn't the same as being intuitive and simple. Microsoft is notorious with moving things around and changing where things are/were.

Add/remove programs, File associations, to name a few things that have changed as to where they located. I know commands to get me around but that makes me more efficient, that has nothing to do with making it easy for the end user.

[Dot Matrix]

Well, I guess that is your opinion. It doesn't mean that everyone thinks that. A UI should be beautiful to look at fun to use. I still think MS is being really dumb by dumbing down their UI.

The UI is finally maturing to where we don't need it on the screen anymore when we are working. Sidebars and hamburger menus now regulate we see it only when it's needed. This isn't "dumbing" down anything, it's creating better and more efficient workflows.

Simplicity is key in design. It's why everyone is switching to it.

[MikeChipshop Member]

I voted but it's also not as clear cut as "yes" or "no".

[PGHammer]

sc302 - define "intuitive", please.

 

If you mean "familiar", then the Windows 9x UI SHOULD have failed.  It was the original massive UI change.  It was criticized, and protested against - but it certainly didn't fail - within two years, it would wind up on Windows NT.

Office 2010 didn't fail, and Office 2013 CERTAINLY didn't fail; Office 2010 had some UI changes from 2007, and 2013 radically changed compared to 2010.  Yet 2010 sold more than 2007, and 2013 outsold 2010 - UI changes (in 2013's case, it uses Modern Design Language - all over the whole suite) and all. (No - I am specifically NOT counting Office 365 in Office 2013's sales numbers - despite there being literally zero difference between it and 2013 except delivery method.)

 

I get unease with massive UI changes - did I, or did I not - in this same forum - call the Windows 8 UI change massive?

 

If it changed how I used my software - including, if not especially, my desktop software, I would be protesting as well.  However, the fact that I HAVE adjusted means that - unless you are no merely change-averse, but change-hostile - indicates that adjustment is quite possible - especially since I took all of my desktop applications - and games, for that matter - from 7 to 8, and without a problem.

 

For those of you that couldn't do that - even WITH a third-party utility such as Start8, StartIsBack, etc. - explain why.

[sc302 Veteran]

Ios is intuitive a 5 year old can pick it up and run with it with any training. Windows 8 not so much. That is intuitive. If you need to play around for more than 1 minute to find things it isn't intuitive. Even android is more intuitive than Windows. Familiarity is one thing that can be learned through repetition, intuitive is when you can pick it up and use it without training or spending a bit of time with the product.

[Kyang]

Ios is intuitive a 5 year old can pick it up and run with it with any training. Windows 8 not so much. That is intuitive. If you need to play around for more than 1 minute to find things it isn't intuitive. Even android is more intuitive than Windows. Familiarity is one thing that can be learned through repetition, intuitive is when you can pick it up and use it without training or spending a bit of time with the product.

 

At the 5 year old level  iOS is "intuitive" because at that level, all the OS's pretty much are.  They've all got the home button, and tapping an icon/tile is usually going to open an app.  Opening something else is a matter of going home, and touching another icon/tile.  Beyond that, no 5 year old is going to know without "spending a bit of time with the product" that to swipe up with only 4 fingers is to switch apps, or double tapping the home button does the same, or why icons have to be rearranged one icon at a time, etc.  And of course, the same goes for understanding how the hidden charms bar used to work on Windows , or what different things happen by pressing and holding the wi-fi icon in the notification area in Android.  That's all learned over maybe a day, or if they have to learn in under a minute someone is going to have to teach them.  By using a 5 year old as a measuring stick, and 1 minute as a time limit, nearly nothing other than throwing a ball is going to be "intuitive".    .

[PGHammer]

Ios is intuitive a 5 year old can pick it up and run with it with any training. Windows 8 not so much. That is intuitive. If you need to play around for more than 1 minute to find things it isn't intuitive. Even android is more intuitive than Windows. Familiarity is one thing that can be learned through repetition, intuitive is when you can pick it up and use it without training or spending a bit of time with the product.

So tell me, then - why is Windows 8 so hard?  Is it because you are used to thinking of Windows a certain way?  If so, then it IS all about familiarity.

You are used to seeing Windows a certain way, and the UI/UX is different.  (In fact, didn't you say - earlier in this thread - that newer users can grasp it almost immediately?)

That difference was, in fact, the cornerstone of my own doubts that date back to the Developer Preview of Windows 8 - and I made no secret at all about that.  The doubts were, in fact, mostly because I was testing it on a legacy desktop.

Still, I adjusted, and without a problem.

 

I never said that everybody would - or even COULD - adjust. (Not everybody adjusted to the Windows 9x UI, for that matter.)

 

However, those that haven't been able to are realizing - albeit late - that they have found their Maximum Discomfort Level - and now they are basically stuck.

The newer  and "sexier" features are being reserved for those that adjusted; everyone else is being left back.  (Sounds a lot like what happened with DX11, in fact.)

There IS no "steady state" of operating systems - any more than there is a steady state of ANY technology.

 

The options are the same as they were with DX9c hardware - adjust or get left back.

[sc302 Veteran]

Windows has the Windows button similar to the home button the goes to two different screens. One screen has nothing on it the other screen has lots. In their world they lost everything. I have kids at home and both types of devices, they refuse the Windows surface to even simply watch netfix videos because it is too difficult to find.

They also know where to find the itunes store and look for things. I never showed them that. They have yet to find the microsoft store, or they really don't care because it is too complicated for then to wrap their heads around.

Why don't you take both devices somewhere, like a shopping center and do your own investigation. I have 3 children ranging from 4-9. I can see their struggles when I give them something to play with.

[Ian S.]

Simple compared to what? Ios, galaxy, Windows 7, ios? It isn't intuitive, that would make it simple. Learning where things are at isn't the same as being intuitive and simple. Microsoft is notorious with moving things around and changing where things are/were.

Add/remove programs, File associations, to name a few things that have changed as to where they located. I know commands to get me around but that makes me more efficient, that has nothing to do with making it easy for the end user.

Add and remove programs? As in Windows XP to Vista? That is because control panel got an overhaul plus uninstall a program is still located there. For apps just long press and select uninstall. Much simpler.

Making a generalization about past Microsoft also does not apply to 10. Apple loves to keep things the same in OSX because the do not serve billions of people and really they get design first as a principle.

[G.i.b.b.s]

if MS had left the desktop as in W7 and just made the start menu appear with a more natural gesture or allow a user to specify a gesture that would have done alot to ease the transition, and maybe with an actual UIX design team to create its aesthetics, I could see it be similar to OSX Launchpad UI.  

 

Still, I love W8, some of the blowback was ridiculously insane over the top nonsence however. I'm all for a company responding to its customers but the whole W8 debacle was lead by a minority few who went ape crazy over something new and different.

[sc302 Veteran]

Just using that as an example as a change.  Moving the shut down restart, simply by removing the start menu...it could be found with some looking around or updating to 8.1 and right clicking.  control panel was a chore to find.  windows updates are now in two locations.  start screen will open apps or open desktop applications, it depends, this alone makes it not uniform.  I could go through a list of commands that making navigating the ui in anything above 2000 uniform, that isn't the point (winkey r and cmd are very powerful tools and will bypass the ui if you know how to use them...microsoft can move whatever to wherever they want as long as the keep the commands the same it is irrelevant to me).  The point is for the everday, average joe user, to be able to understand what is going on...the grandparents, the kiddos, the people who don't get technology yet or aren't immersed in it fully or simply don't care "just make it work".  

 

Using something for a few weeks or a year and figuring it out as you go along doesn't make it intuitive, that is getting used to and familiarizing yourself with it and doing something repetively to the point that it is second nature to you...using something and near immediately are able to navigate and do things with it, that is intuitive. 

 

If I gave you a hammer, you would know how to use it immediately....hit something with it.  If I gave you a piano, you would hit keys and make it make sound, but you wouldn't be able to play chop sticks or make music right away.   Android and ios devices are like the hammer, windows 8/metro/modern ui is like a piano.

[zhangm Supervisor]

control panel was a chore to find

 

Even that implies invoking prior knowledge that something is called "Control Panel", and should be in a certain place that can be drawn up by a certain set of learned actions. Meanwhile, Control Panel and specific settings within it can be invoked by searching and has been the OOTB case since Vista (while third-party search/launch solutions were released for XP even before that).

[sc302 Veteran]

searching, that requires typing....faster for me to type "control" in a run prompt.  Lets go with typing for a bit....

winkey r +

"appwiz.cpl" open up programs

"desk.cpl" open up monitors and resolution

"main.cpl" opes up mouse properties

"main.cpl keyboard" keyboard properties

"main.cpl power" power options

"control ncpa.cpl" network properties

"control sysdm.cpl" system properties

"devmgmt.msc" device manager

"eventvwr.msc" event viewer

"diskmgmt.msc" disk management

 

winkey r + cmd

shutdown -r -t 0 = restart computer

shutdown -s -t 0 = shutdown computer

 

netsh int ip reset c:\windows\temp\reset.txt resets the ip stack and drivers to default

 

netsh int ip reset winsock - resets winsock

netsh interface ip set address "Local Area Connection" static ipaddr subnetmask gateway sets the local area connection ipv4 address to what you put in the ipaddr subnet and gateway

netsh int ip set address "Local Area Connection" source=dhcp sets ipv4 it to dhcp

 

If yours isn't Local Area Connection by default, they you can run this to see what the interfaces are named, then run the commands replacing Local Area Connection with the name showed in the interface quotes.

netsh int ip sh conf

 

 

regardless of where they put them or where they are at it is easy enough to get to without the need of going to a search bar (either point and clicking your way to find the search bar or using winkey f).  Use your search/find as you wish.  I will go exactly where I want to get to without clicking to get there.

 

I have forgotten that search exists being that it can't find everything on the computer... I stopped using it after windows xp tbh, it became less powerful...do a full computer search for content.ie5.  It exists here C:\Users\username\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Windows\Temporary Internet Files....you may ask why is that relevent, simple they moved it in windows vista.  Why do I care...clearing cache/deleting temporary files/running ccleaner does not always remove all files in here...and sometimes a pesky virus hides in here.  Here is another one, do a search for hosts...again I know where it is and it isn't hidden but shouldnt it be able to find it?.  But that is irrelevant, if you can't find that, what else can't you find...look around for other hidden system file locations and find other things the search can't find....what good is it if it can't find these....one step foward 8 steps back. 

 

This isn't about me or how I perceive the modern ui (I try not to use the ui as it has been given to me by microsoft, I use it the way I need) or even how a poweruser perceives the modern ui ...it is how the standard users perceives it. 

[Ian S.]

regardless of where they put them or where they are at it is easy enough to get to without the need of going to a search bar (either point and clicking your way to find the search bar or using winkey f).  Use your search/find as you wish.  I will go exactly where I want to get to without clicking to get there.

 

I have forgotten that search exists being that it can't find everything on the computer... I stopped using it after windows xp tbh, it became less powerful...do a full computer search for content.ie5.  It exists here C:\Users\username\AppData\Local\Microsoft\Windows\Temporary Internet Files....you may ask why is that relevent, simple they moved it in windows vista.  Why do I care...clearing cache/deleting temporary files/running ccleaner does not always remove all files in here...and sometimes a pesky virus hides in here.  Here is another one, do a search for hosts...again I know where it is and it isn't hidden but shouldnt it be able to find it?.  But that is irrelevant, if you can't find that, what else can't you find...look around for other hidden system file locations and find other things the search can't find....what good is it if it can't find these....one step foward 8 steps back. 

 

This isn't about me or how I perceive the modern ui (I try not to use the ui as it has been given to me by microsoft, I use it the way I need) or even how a poweruser perceives the modern ui ...it is how the standard users perceives it. 

 

I can do the same thing with Winkey+S and type to command in just like Winkey+R, but Winkey+S is part of the modern UI. It still pulls up the right command and with a quick down arrow, I'm in the old Control Panel. Just a tip, Winkey+S opens everywhere search, Winkey+Q opens app search, Winkey+W opens settings search, and Winkey+F opens File search.