The Great Modern UI Debate Thread

[Ian S.]

Pivots are returning:

[Ian W]

I miss the immersive file pickers with tooltips and semantic zoom. As with so many features in Windows 8.x, the aforementioned features worked not only with touch, but also with traditional mouse and keyboard. The tooltip, for example, could be displayed by hovering over a file with the mouse cursor or by pressing and holding down with one's finger.

[Dot Matrix]

I really hope there is a replacement coming for the file picker. This legacy POS they have in now is going to drive me up the wall before long.

 

 

 

[Ian W]

I guess a full-screen "All Apps" interface is asking for too much. It is almost as if those who liked Windows 8.x

[Ian S.]

Microsoft is fundamentally ruining the Modern UI at its core because they are diverting all resources to the desktop. Playing around with the Surface 3 in Best Buy today and seeing how other customers responded to the device, I found that they have learned the gestures of swiping up for All Apps and tapping the desktop tile to go to the desktop. With Windows 10 that goes away, the UI changes (compare the ugly new notification center to the settings flyout in Windows 8.1, or the non existent fluid animations) are scrapping the Design Principals of Windows 8 and 8.1

For tablet mode to work, the Taskbar must be thrown completely out the Windows.

[Ian W]

Microsoft is fundamentally ruining the Modern UI at its core because they are diverting all resources to the desktop. Playing around with the Surface 3 in Best Buy today and seeing how other customers responded to the device, I found that they have learned the gestures of swiping up for All Apps and tapping the desktop tile to go to the desktop. With Windows 10 that goes away, the UI changes (compare the ugly new notification center to the settings flyout in Windows 8.1, or the non existent fluid animations) are scrapping the Design Principals of Windows 8 and 8.1

For tablet mode to work, the Taskbar must be thrown completely out the Windows.

Yeah the touch gestures, sorting options, and other features for "All Apps," including the powerful customization options and semantic zoom, have been removed from Windows 10. Such a pity as the Start screen interface was one of my favorite parts of Windows 8.1, if not the favorite. It is so powerful with so many options for customization!

Perhaps some do not realize how powerful "All Apps" is? How many know they can boot directly to that section of the interface, if desired? How many know that the Start screen displays the total number of installed applications in addition to highlighting each application individually? The latter feature may seem like a small detail, but it is the small details that add up to make the user experience positive.

I normally do not agree with Paul Thurrott on a lot of things but I really, really liked his review of "All Apps" in Windows 8.1.

 

The Apps view

[Ian S.]

Oh Modern UI how I miss you, you make my Surface Pro 3 the most amazing device on the planet. Now your younger brother Windows 10 comes along and ruins it.

[Ian S.]

[indospot Veteran]

I for one hated the new file picker. I loved most things modern, but the file picker was the exception.

[Ian W]

I am not sure if this could be considered a part of Modern UI, but I really like the slide to shutdown option introduced in Windows 8.1. It is probably one of the few features Windows 8.1 introduced that Windows 10 will not get credit for

[Dot Matrix]

Yeah, 8.1 won't get any credit. Microsoft doesn't even know what that is anymore. Idiots.

[Ian S.]

From the Windows 8.1 design principles:

 

Use typography beautifully.  Use bold, vibrant colors.

 

Well, the polar opposite of Windows 10.

[Kyang]

From the Windows 8.1 design principles:

 

Well, the polar opposite of Windows 10.

 

Windows 10 colors are still pretty vibrant.  It's the usage of typography and the grid that's really suffered.

[Ian W]

From the Windows 8.1 design principles:

 

Well, the polar opposite of Windows 10.

[PGHammer]

I am not sure if this could be considered a part of Modern UI, but I really like the slide to shutdown option introduced in Windows 8.1. It is probably one of the few features Windows 8.1 introduced that Windows 10 will not get credit for

[Ian W]

"Slide-to-shutdown" is actually the inverse of "slide-up-to-login" - it could be tied to a function and not be touch-dependent (in fact, "slide-up-to-login" is still present, and can be done with the pointing device, and via the spacebar - users of trackpads and touchpads aren't left out, either - left-button and slide up).

The entire debate about device bias has OF COURSE been present at Microsoft - a surprise would have been if it weren't debated hotly on Team Redmond's campus. (Again, this goes back to "Introducing Windows 95".)  Complacency itself is doubtlessly a hot debate topic there - in many ways, Microsoft has historically LED the anti-complacency assault with their products and services.

I am aware that "slide to shutdown" is not dependent on touch, but it is very touch friendly.

[PGHammer]

I am aware that "slide to shutdown" is not dependent on touch, but it is very touch friendly.

And the touch-friendliness is likely the heart OF the debate.

 

Regardless of what other OSes support in terms of hardware, there remains an insistence (among parts of the Windows userbase) for hardware support (in terms of the OS) to remain unchanged from 7 (geared toward pointing devices in general, and mice in particular, with limited-by-comparison keyboard support, but no touch-friendliness at all).  Never mind that even Windows 8 (which had no Start menu whatsoever, but only the Start Screen) was certainly capable of being used with a pointing device (or even without one), a pointing device had somehow morphed from being useful to being a requirement in the minds of users - I'm still running into this today.  It's not logical - heck, it's not even RATIONAL - yet it's there, and getting some of these same folks to let go of the idea is like getting Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) to admit that he likes to shop at CVS.

 

Lack of logic?

 

The illogic of the argument falls apart merely looking at the Windows 8 hardware core base - the desktops, laptops, and notebooks that shipped with Windows 7.  How many of you - among Neowinians - found that your hardware DID have support for touch - to some degree - merely from changing out the OS installed on it from 7 (or earlier) to 8 (or later)?  (The same argument applies to other features that are supported in 8 or later - but not in 7 or earlier, such as Hyper-V.)

This primary point of contention FIRST started slapping me in the face right after 8 went RTM with folks I support bringing in their hardware for OS upgrades - among the upgrades were three AIOs that originally came with Windows 7.  Only one (of the three) did not have touch support uncovered merely by upgrading the OS.  The reality that touch-capable HARDWARE was part of the Windows 7 hardware base forced me into a rather uncomfortable conclusion - despite the popularity of the OS, Windows 7 was a hardware laggard (in short, it lacked support for features found in the hardware running the OS).  This has been something that has been used to whack Linux distributions continuously - going back to my own early days running Red Hat Linux 5.0 - until today.  Now I'm finding that my own OS of choice was - while not to as great a degree - just as guilty.  A rather bitter pill to swallow.  Except that the hardware-laggard fact wasn't through slapping me around yet! 

 

Lack of rationality?

 

The irrationality of the argument gets exposed because of what the critics centered the argument itself around - the presence/absence of the Start menu.

Despite the insistence of the critics that the Start menu is necessary, quite a few Neowinians - despite no Start menu AND no touch support in their hardware - upgraded easily, quietly, and with little fanfare, upgraded with lack of quibbles - and lack of third-party Start menu alternatives. (The only reason I HAD more fanfare was due to my expressing doubt about how easily someone used to having the Start menu could migrate - yet I admitted that my fears were not merely overblown, but BADLY overblown - I did my mea culpa in the Windows 8 Consumer Preview thread here on Neowin, in fact.  I ate the entire crow sandwich - feathers, beak, and all.  I was wrong, and owned up to BEING wrong.  End of fanfare - I thought.)

 

Where did the idea come from?

 

With the first two points addressed, there HAS to be a source for the endless rubric that just because touch is supported, non-touch users suffer.  What is rather amusing is that Android and iOS are the only two mainstream OSes that are deployed on hardware where keyboards are optional OR non-existent at all in a physical sense.

 

However, does it mean that keyboards aren't supported?  No - not even close.  First off, both OSes include virtual-keyboard software as part of the basic loadout.  Secondly, if you have a keyboard with a Bluetooth interface, it IS usable with any tablet or smartphone that supports the same BT spec as the keyboard.  Kensington makes a slew of BT-based peripherals - including keyboards; they are very popular for the iPad, and getting there for Android tablets and smartphones as well.  Even Logitech and Microsoft are in on the act.  (I knew about the keyboards on the iOS side from having used them.)

In other words, we have a user bias being forced onto the OS manufacturer.  What makes it interesting is that it was MICROSOFT that had, for decades, talked up and basically pushed incessantly, the necessity of the pointing device.  Now, Microsoft wants to move away from it, and users are pushing back. ("You might have used a bit TOO much dynamite there, Sundance.")

[Ian S.]

Amazing video on Material Design:

 

Notice how they use bold beautiful colors and very fluid animations and care about details like button presses. Windows 10 does not and will be plain and bland with the white/black only style and a ton of random bars.

 

[PGHammer]

Amazing video on Material Design:

 

Notice how they use bold beautiful colors and very fluid animations and care about details like button presses. Windows 10 does not and will be plain and bland with the white/black only style and a ton of random bars.

 

However, what do you have to do handset-wise to have the colors show up with that amount of "pop"?  (Or are those raytraces - not actual handset footage?)

I know (from painful experience) that no emulator (and I mean that literally) looks close to looking like that - even more telling, look at the actual appearance on phones and tablets running Lollipop (where Material Design originated), let alone M.

 

Looks great but performs like poo?  That is problematical for any OS - let alone one that you deal with every day.

 

Windows 10 Mobile may be bland, but it's not a drag - on phones, tablets that use it, or application performance (all qualities it shares with Windows 10 for everything else).  The biggest ding that Lollipop gets is the drag on performance - which is not alone on older phones, but even newer phones and tablets with quad-core and octo-core processors (Samsung's Galaxy Note/Tab 4 AND their successors are piling up dings due to poor performance running Lollipop).

 

The performance penalty of Lollipop concerns me - as merely a developer/would-be developer; why would it not be a concern for users?

[tompkin]

I have not had any performance problems with my Verizon LG G3 or Verizon tablet running Lollipop 5.02. It's roughly on par when I ran Kit Kat.

[Ian S.]

However, what do you have to do handset-wise to have the colors show up with that amount of "pop"?  (Or are those raytraces - not actual handset footage?)

I know (from painful experience) that no emulator (and I mean that literally) looks close to looking like that - even more telling, look at the actual appearance on phones and tablets running Lollipop (where Material Design originated), let alone M.

 

Looks great but performs like poo?  That is problematical for any OS - let alone one that you deal with every day.

 

Windows 10 Mobile may be bland, but it's not a drag - on phones, tablets that use it, or application performance (all qualities it shares with Windows 10 for everything else).  The biggest ding that Lollipop gets is the drag on performance - which is not alone on older phones, but even newer phones and tablets with quad-core and octo-core processors (Samsung's Galaxy Note/Tab 4 AND their successors are piling up dings due to poor performance running Lollipop).

 

The performance penalty of Lollipop concerns me - as merely a developer/would-be developer; why would it not be a concern for users?

IDK about you, but Windows 10 for phones is definitely a drag on the hardware. It is extremely slow   unbelievably slow apparently (at least on my phone).

[Dot Matrix]

IDK about you, but Windows 10 for phones is definitely a drag on the hardware. It is extremely slow unbelievably slow apparently (at least on my phone).

I guess Microsoft has such a hard on for Android, they want to copy its poor performance as well.

[Ian S.]

I am really liking the way the new mail app looks, but onenote needs the radial back

[Eric Veteran]

Let's not call out other members. If you don't agree with what someone says, fine. Refute it. Personal attacks never have been, and will not be permitted.

[Motor_Mouth]

Amazing video on Material Design:

Notice how they use bold beautiful colors and very fluid animations and care about details like button presses. Windows 10 does not and will be plain and bland with the white/black only style and a ton of random bars.

The same is true of Metro. This is a really long video but the first 3 minutes give you some idea how much effort went into it. They had 60 designers working on it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8xrWMRLecU

 

I don't really like material design, although many of it's principles are surprisingly close to, and almost certainly inspired by, Metro. The main thing that binds them is authenticity, which each strives for in slightly different ways. Material design uses subtle shadows to give the illusion of depth, where Metro achieves something similar through the panoramic design of the interface and the movement that goes with it.

 

I'm not a fan of gazillions of colours so I prefer Metro's consistency - a background, light or dark, and an accent colour. It's simple, it forces you to concentrate on presentation and it puts content first. I hate apps that don't conform to it, e.g. by using their own colours or with chrome, and I usually uninstall them pretty quickly. I also think that if you need to cut shapes out of paper and build a little wooden rig in a studio to look at the interaction of elements with light, you're not much of a digital designer and probably shouldn't be working on digital interfaces. Even something as basic as After Effects would allow you to do all that research digitally.

 

What concerns me is that with every new iteration, Microsoft move further and further from what makes Metro great. Look at Windows 10 Mobile, for example. The landing page exhibits absolutely nothing that could be described as "Metro". It leads with icons, typography isn't any kind of consideration and the panoramic interaction is thrown out in favour of forcing users to jump in and out of pages one at a time. It's awful and I don't like it at all. Imagine, instead, a Settings app that uses Metro principles to the max. Instead of a landing page with a list of icons and text, you'd straight away see all the settings for System, with headings for Devices and Network & Wireless trailing off the right edge of the screen, intuitively showing you how to proceed. It's one less screen to design and navigation is beautifully fluid, not the in and out rigmarole we have to put up with in W10 Mobile.

 

In abandoning the design language they spent so much time and effort creating, they are basically destroying the amazingly fluid touch experience of Windows Phone and Windows 8. They have all but completely screwed the pooch now. I'm sure they think that by aping Android they can win converts but what they fail to understand is that it works both ways - there is far more to entice WinPhone users across to Android than there is to encourage any happy Android user to switch to W10 Mobile. So by making Windows Mobile more like Android, they are far more likely to make it easier for unhappy WinPhone users (like me) to consider Android. In fact, even though I'm not necessarily a big fan of Material Design, it is streets ahead of anything Microsoft are doing with Windows 10 and, for the first time ever, the switch is actually very tempting for me.