SpaceX Updates (Thread 6)

[Draggendrop Veteran]

This is not an update, in fact, SpaceX is probably not aware of this plan, But, a few at NASA have a plan for SpaceX Toys......Thought you might get a kick out of this article.......because it's possible.......

'Red Dragon' Mars Sample-Return Mission Could Launch by 2022

 

SpaceX's robotic Dragon capsule could be modified to help bring Mars samples back to Earth, some researchers say.
Credit: SpaceX

A mission that uses SpaceX's Dragon capsule to help bring chunks of Mars rock back to Earth for analysis could launch as early as 2022, researchers say.

This "Red Dragon" project — which remains a concept at the moment, not an approved mission — would grab samples collected by NASA's 2020 Mars rover and send them rocketing back toward Earth, where researchers could scrutinize the material for possible signs of past Red Planet life.

The sample-return effort would keep costs and complexity down by using SpaceX's Falcon Heavy rocket and a modified version of the company's robotic Dragon cargo capsule, the concept's developers say.

 

Red Dragon is "technically feasible with the use of these emerging commercial technologies, coupled with technologies that already exist," Andy Gonzales, of NASA's Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, California, said Wednesday (Sept. 9) during a presentation with the space agency's Future In-Space Operations (FISO) working group.

The Red Dragon team has developed the concept independently, without any involvement or endorsement by SpaceX, Gonzales said.

 

 

Rest of article here if curious......

 http://www.space.com/30504-spacex-red-dragon-mars-sample-return.html

Later.................

[DocM]

This is not an update, in fact, SpaceX is probably not aware of this plan, But, a few at NASA have a plan for SpaceX Toys......Thought you might get a kick out of this article.......because it's possible.......

'Red Dragon' Mars Sample-Return Mission Could Launch by 2022
SpaceX's robotic Dragon capsule could be modified to help bring Mars samples back to Earth, some researchers say.
Credit: SpaceX

 

 

Rest of article here if curious......

 http://www.space.com/30504-spacex-red-dragon-mars-sample-return.html

Later.................

 

SpaceX has been in on this since the first proposals came out of JPL in 2012. Another concept under discussion is Ice Dragon, a drill inside a landed Dragon for gathering subsurface ice samples.

[DocM]

Here's yesterdays Red Dragon presentation,

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9VH7PhykZaSZEQ3Vm51Z2Q2Mk0/view

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Thank's for posting the presentation. I downloaded it and had fun reading it. I am impressed with the fact that they are trying to use available equipment, with mod's, to do a job cheaper than the usual bureaucratic monsters......This idea may get picked.......

[bguy_1986]

Thank's for posting the presentation. I downloaded it and had fun reading it. I am impressed with the fact that they are trying to use available equipment, with mod's, to do a job cheaper than the usual bureaucratic monsters......This idea may get picked.......

Don't get your hopes up too high!  Politicians haven't got their dirty little hands on this yet!  Some are probably licking their chops as we speak.  They will think they have better ideas I'm sure...

Hopefully someday real soon we Politicians will be out of the picture because this is impressive.  SpaceX would have no trouble making those modifications.  My only concern would be weight of the Dragon Capsule when landing on Mars but I am not an Engineer so I'll sit back and watch the show and wish it would go a little quicker.

[DocM]

The mass budget is in the presentation. FH can deliver a Dragon 2 with a sample return vehicle etc. to Mars with more than enough margin, and that was before the Full Thrust architecture. Thats why the guys at Ames were so excited.

SpaceX's interest is that they want to use FH to land prototype ISRU equipment (for turning Mars atmosphere into propellants: methane and O2) and robotic equipment to prepare a site for cargo and manned MCT landings. Red Dragon gives them confirmation of their EDL (entry, descent & landing) models for that hardware and MCT.

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Don't get your hopes up too high!  Politicians haven't got their dirty little hands on this yet!  Some are probably licking their chops as we speak.  They will think they have better ideas I'm sure...

Hopefully someday real soon we Politicians will be out of the picture because this is impressive.  SpaceX would have no trouble making those modifications.  My only concern would be weight of the Dragon Capsule when landing on Mars but I am not an Engineer so I'll sit back and watch the show and wish it would go a little quicker.

Hi....I actually am  upbeat by this idea,........ if it gets chosen, wise move, ........if not, doesn't matter. SpaceX may have known about the idea, but these guys did this research on there own, with no input from SpaceX, other than known parameters at the time. This shows that knowledgeable people are aware of the achievements attained already, and how these capabilities would fit into Nasa's wish list of adventures. SpaceX would have had a plan as well, and as Doc stated, they do have a setup plan for Mars. This is going to get done, in some form, anyway,.... just with a delay because it will be privately funded. The number of private /commercial ventures, over the next decade and a half, will put a muzzle on rogue politicians. These private /commercial ventures will proceed, with backing, with or without their input. In fact, If I were them, I would be very careful in the future as these ventures take form, mainly because caustic politics, which cause financial hardship, have a way of showing one where country borders are. Later....... 

[DocM]

Chris at NASASpaceFlight.com is reporting a possible new Falcon upper stage. The speculation has already started in a new thread, but ISTM a mini-Raptor makes the most sense. 

http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=38432.msg1236468#new

 

....They [SpaceX] have said there's a potential path with a different type of second stage.

 

[BetaguyGZT]

Interesting discussion going on about the possibilities.  Can't wait to see what SpaceX actually comes up with.

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Potential path....new way of operating...with a new second stage

I am confident that they will be landing the first stage of F9 as well as the 3 cores of FH.

This leaves the second stage to recover...a lot of cash to throw away with the number of launches they have booked for commercial. Which would lead me to think, we need 1st stage merlins on the second stage in order to land the second stage, the same way as the first stage lands. How many merlins would be required to land the second stage...assuming fuel load for them, but with them not being used for anything, but landing. This would require a way to use the vacuum engine for delivery, thrusters to reorient the stage and send it down, then once in the atmosphere, light up the merlins and deploy the second stages own landing legs.

Is it possible to run normal merlins in an inefficient mode, with valving,per vacuum use, then switch the merlins back to use them as rated in the atmosphere?

[BetaguyGZT]

The Merlin variant used in the S2 is almost a different engine entirely, as you've pointed out would be relatively inefficient in atmosphere. Could the S2 Merlin be used for recovery? Sure. Even in an atmosphere it's still a more powerful engine than the S1 Merlins are. Is it a good idea to use that Merlin-D like this? Probably not. SpaceX does NOT like to use things in unintended ways.

So, that leaves the crux of the discussion -- is SpaceX designing a new S2 with (possibly) a derivative, lower-power(?) Raptor engine with this purpose in mind? It would seem logical, given that they'd like to start recovering S2's. By the time they're ready to fly them, they'll be recovering almost all S1's and Falcon Heavy will likely be doing most of the flights by that timeframe.

Food for discussion.

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Returning stage 2 will be a huge savings, especially with the number of commercial launched scheduled. I assume the FH 2nd stage will be the same as the F9, to keep things modular. The 1st stage Merlins are proven, the 2nd stage vac merlin is proven, the Draco thrusters put on a fine show, and I assume will be used in the future for capsule landing. We have 3 engines that work for a purpose, and work well. Why can't we incorporate enough "air merlins" or enough Draco', in the outer circumference of stage 2's business end, but not use them until re-entry. The vac merlin works good...use it till done...thrusters to reorient and guide the 2nd stage down, have an ejectable bell, fire up "air engines". The big issue is the weight penalty for engines and fuel, for recovery landing, has to be cheaper than throwing away a full 2nd stage.....I guess the big question is...How many air merlins or Draco's are needed to land a 2nd stage...all engines perform as intended, and no new engine variant added just for 2nd stage recovery........just an idea.....Or it's a complete re-engine with natural gas, to work in vac or atmosphere, which would be the end goal.....I just find it to be a strange time to introduce "gas" here, for 2nd stage, when the Raptor work would be for another lineage.....but then, test results have not been forth coming, and they may already have the design proven in testing, and proven to be scaleable...in which case, it would be a good time, to just do the downsizing mod, and get it over with.....???? The second stage has to be saved...no question there. We don't want launch penalties for payload either.....scaleable gas would be the way to go....we just have not been told anything about progress here...are they ready with a gas engine..if so...mute point here, install them.

[BetaguyGZT]

Too bad they can't use a combination of Drogue chutes to slow down, secondary chutes to slow down even more, then a third set of Primary chutes specially crafted to allow the S2 to land more vertically than laterally in conjunction with RCS (to cancel out horizontal motion and wind); finally ending up with a quad-set of SuperDraco's to cancel out the last bit of downward momentum and let that S2 land on its' legs upright.

It's not very accurate, and yes it's elaborate and a little complicated -- but it also eliminates having to develop another S2. Instead, it only requires some modifications & hardening to the spaceframe and the addition of a heat shield for re-entry, the passive stability & aerobraking fins, the Chutes (all eight of them, by my count), updated Flight Software and the SuperDraco's & Landing Legs.

Maybe?

[DocM]

Chutes are heavy and would reduce the payload by 1:1 or more.

M1DVac won't cut it for landings because of a gas generator kerolox having too much thrust, and thereby not having the throttleability to land. Even if it did, dropping the S2 nozzle for ground clearance (necessary with M1DVac) would cause combustion instabilities in thick air.

Adding SuperDracos for landings has the same mass problem as chutes.

Another problem is keeping the RP1 from gelling if multiple burns have to spread out over tens of hours, which is common during DoD launches. This can be solved with battery powered heaters, but this again introduces the mass tradeoff problem.

Solution: a higher Isp, lower thrust, highly throttleable engine using either methane or hydrogen. Methane is on the main path to Raptor, so ISTM a smaller methane engine or a mini-Raptor makes the most sense.

Bonus points:

A disposable F9 goes to 25-30 tonnes to LEO and FH to 60+ tonnes.

Clustered mini-Raptors could be used as MCT landing thrusters if it were akin to a Super Dragon 2.

 

[Draggendrop Veteran]

So it would appear that the better solution, would be for a scaled down raptor methane that is throttleable for landing. SpaceX must be getting close to raptor design completion for an actual test engine....why not test a scaled down unit  in the second stage, they are already throwing it away, until a solution is found...which could be this.....we just don't hear enough info on the gas engine, to tell if idea's are way off or not....have been assuming at least several more years...maybe  it's almost ready now???????   

[DocM]

In June 2014 they were testing injector segments, and by August 2014 they were testing high volume injectors.  

At the ISS R&D Conference in June 2015,  Musk said they were 3D printing Raptor turbopump parts. 

They may well have already designed, built and fired a subscale Raptor on the path to building the full scale version.  Depending on how small it was 3D printing most of it with the printers used for SuperDraco isn't out of the question.

[DocM]

$7B in launch contracts....

http://www.spacex.com/press/2015/09/14/spacex-signs-new-commercial-launch-contracts

SpaceX Signs New Commercial Launch Contracts

Hawthorne, CA/Paris, France, September 14, 2015 — On Monday at this week’s World Satellite Business Conference in Paris, France, SpaceX announced two new orders for Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launch vehicles.  The contracts include launch of a communications satellite for HISPASAT on a Falcon 9 and launch of the Saudi Arabian Arabsat 6A communications satellite on a Falcon Heavy.

"We are pleased to add these additional launches to our manifest," said Gwynne Shotwell, President and COO of SpaceX. "The diversity of our missions and customers represents a strong endorsement of our capabilities and reflects SpaceX’s efforts to provide a breadth of launch services to our growing customer base."

The above missions are expected to launch from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida between late-2017 and 2018.  With these additions, SpaceX currently has over 60 missions on manifest representing over $7 billion under contract.
 

[Draggendrop Veteran]

This is great news.........customers showing confidence .......on average, we could be looking at 2 launches a month minimum, for the next 3 years...so far, with a lot more to come......the quick turn around show will be ramping up in the not to distant future.......

[DocM]

The Falcon 9 Full Thrust test fire for SES-9 will be done on the new Falcon 9/Falcon Heavy test stand at McGregor TX. 

Peter B. de Selding ‏@pbdes  2m2 minutes ago
SES: No earlier than Nov 17 for SpaceX Falcon 9 v1 upgrade flight of SES-9. 15-second ignition of denser-fueled 1st stage this week.

 

 

[Draggendrop Veteran]

/s     At least I can come on here and say "nice flame trench" without getting slapped......

NET 63 days till the fun really starts....can't wait....good news to hear, even for a NET date....

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Here is an editorial, from the SpaceNews editor, on the SpaceX congresscritter bullseye....

Editorial | Open Season on SpaceX

SpaceX’s congressional detractors have taken the offensive in the wake of the June 28 failure of the company’s Falcon 9 rocket on a resupply mission to the International Space Station.

Several House members wrote NASA and the U.S. Air Force in July to question whether the two organizations — both important SpaceX customers — would apply sufficient rigor in assessing the failure and the company’s corrective action plans. In August, House Science Committee ChairmanLamar Smith (R-Texas) called out NASA for allegedly being tougher on Orbital ATK following the failure of that company’s Antares rocket, also on a space station resupply mission, than on SpaceX. Finally, two U.S. senators in September asked the U.S. Government Accountability Office to review NASA’s Commercial Resupply Services program in light of both accidents.

It’s no coincidence that most of these lawmakers are from states that host SpaceX’s industrial competitors, including archrival United Launch Alliance and its corporate parents, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Aside from their interest in ULA, Boeing and Lockheed Martin do work for NASA that competes for dollars with programs in which SpaceX is involved.

 

 

NASA has in fact taken different approaches to reviewing the company-led Falcon 9 and Antares failure investigations, and the agency’s explanation of why is not terribly convincing — it likely won’t do much to counter perceptions of favoritism toward SpaceX. For its part, SpaceX is hardly defenseless — it plays the Washington political game as aggressively as anyone, and its founder, Elon Musk, has crossed the line on occasion, particularly with his unsubstantiated accusations of malfeasance on the part of Air Force officials.

But one need not be a fan of SpaceX to see its positive impact on the U.S. government space enterprise as a whole, primarily by introducing much-needed competition in the launch services arena. Between that and its roles in NASA’s space station commercial resupply and crew taxi programs, SpaceX is forcing the big primes to cut costs and innovate, to the government’s benefit. SpaceX also has made the United States relevant again in the commercial launch business, to the benefit of the satellite telecommunications sector. This, too, helps the government, which relies heavily on commercial satellite bandwidth, especially when fighting wars. Finally, the Commercial Resupply Services program in general has opened up avenues to space that previously were unavailable. A whole new generation of entrepreneurial startups like Planet Labs and Spire have been able to reach space by piggybacking on CRS missions.

While on some level it is unsurprising that certain members of Congress seem blind to the benefits of having SpaceX in the game and treat the company like an interloper rather than a force for innovation, it is nonetheless disappointing.

http://spacenews.com/editorial-open-season-on-spacex/

I am not as versed, as you guys are, on political manoeuvre's, but I am at least happy that it is noticed by some......  

[DocM]

The differences between how the Orbital and SpaceX launch failures are being investigated have more to do with the specifics of each event than any favoritism.

In SpaceX's case the evidence pointed to a problem with a supplier part. Find the problem, replace the source and tighten inspections. 

With Orbitals we have their decision to buy ~40 year old surplus Russian engines which had been poorly stored; no or limited climate control, some reportedly with bird poop on them, and some had cracks. Additionally; two had disassembled themselves on the test stand, one here and one in Russia. NASA signed off on Orbital and Aerojet acquiring and refurbing them on the cheap, and in some cases patching engine cracks with welds.  This investigation had to address not only what parts failed, how/why they failed etc. but some quite interesting decisionmaking by Orbital, Aerojet and NASA.

Apple's and oranges.

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Thank's...now it makes more sense....and I can also see why this was not put in general media.......

[DocM]

https://twitter.com/pbdes/status/643713181047767040

Cleaner version of image

Performance increase: 33%

Height increased from 68.28 m (224 ft) to 70m (229.6 ft)
Stage 2 lengthened
M1DVac Stage 2 engine thrust increased;
Vac thrust: 740kN -> 934 kN (210,000 lbf)
M1DVac nozzle lengthened
Interstage lengthened & strengthened
New center pusher to guide Stage 2 separation
Grid fin design evolved (for stage landings)
Stage 1 structural upgrades
Landing legs upgraded
Octaweb thrust structure upgraded
Merlin 1D thrust upgraded;
Sea level: 654 kN -> 756 kN (170,000 lbf)
Vacuum:  825 kN (185,000)
S1-SL thrust: 6,806 kN (1,530,000 lbf)
S1-Vac thrust: 7,426 kN (1,669,500 lbf)
Propellants supercooled to increase bulk density

[DocM]