[OFFICIAL] Windows 10 Insider Program

[Jim K Global Moderator]

Forgot exactly where you posted it...but I do recall you saying something along the lines that Microsoft would never return the start menu ... in *any* form or fashion.

 

I see Microsoft enabling the users to use directories/sub-directories which have worked very well over the past decades.  It only makes sense as users install many programs and applications as it allows the end-user to organize their apps/programs with ease.

 

Notice that Microsoft is calling it a "start screen"...not a mini start or whatever you think it should be called.  They did *return* the start screen....doesn't matter if the code base is BASIC.

 

Anyway, the point being...as it stands now..."what's wrong with it" is the huge list of applications which you have to scroll through.  Though I'm not worried about it at this TP stage.  

[+Warwagon MVC]

It's easily abused. The old Start Menu is an endless maze of clicks. Look for something in the XP or 7 Menu, and you'll most likely find it buried in a folder (or worse, a subfolder) somewhere. Personally, I think that if you're forcing the user to dig for something they need (an application, settings dialog, etc), that's bad functionality. That's why I'm in love with the new Settings panel in 10, it's not hiding anything anymore from the user. The new Start also changes that by not hiding the applications you're looking for. I can easily direct a user to click "All Apps", and direct them to the application without much effort on my part, or theirs, whereas before, it could be a several step process.

 

Removing search from the equation, I find The old start menu FAR easier to find thing because they are in collapsed sub folders. The Windows 8 all apps menu is a cluster ######.

[Mugwump00]

Technically, they didn't "return" to anything. This is a whole new feature based on all new code, borrowed from the Start Screen. :)

 

I'm calling you on that one - the Start Screen has nicely animated transitions, the New Start Menu is not, and grim for it.  Smells like old zero-animation Start Menu code to me. 

[Dot Matrix]

Removing search from the equation I find The old start menu FAR easier to find thing because they are in collapsed sub folders. The Windows 8 all apps menu is a cluster ######.

The default Menu had collapsed folders, but not everything was in a folder to begin with. The whole setup was messy, and completely disorganized. And before you say that it could be organized, let me just say that very few people ever did that, and no one in the workplace can do that. It's common for me to spend minutes wasted, as users endlessly click through folders trying to find something they need. It gets worse when you add custom, in-house "junkware" into the mix that installs itself in any random location (I found out the other day that we support an application that installs to the Startup folder). That's BAD.

 

 

I'm calling you on that one - the Start Screen has nicely animated transitions, the New Start Menu is not, and grim for it.  Smells like old zero-animation Start Menu code to me. 

The old code was ripped from Windows before Windows 8 was released; it didn't support new APIs that are found in the OS. This new Start is completely based upon new code.  

[+Warwagon MVC]

This new Start is completely based upon new code.  

 

Link?

[Elliot B.]

Windows Explorer crashes a lot in 9879.

[Mugwump00]

 

The old code was ripped from Windows before Windows 8 was released; it didn't support new APIs that are found in the OS. This new Start is completely based upon new code.  

 

Source?   You talk with unexplained authority as if code manipulation is a one-way street.

[George P Global Moderator]

It's a well known fact that apps, in this case desktop apps abused the start menu by dumping a folder filled with more than just the app exe you wanted. That's not a good thing and mostly a issue with poor design from the original menu way back in Windows 95. It's why they pushed search so hard later on, the menu became folder hell.

 

The only things that should be in the menu is the app exe to start it and nothing else, hopefully they can force that when apps install, so far I think this is the case though.

 

As far as being able to have "folders" of your own making, then sure, I agree with this as a option. I also expect it to happen, keep in mind that the menu and the screen are sharing features. We have folders in WP now and that will come to the rest of windows with 10 as they unify everything.   Making a folder on the start screen should then keep it as a folder in the menu when you switch the UI.

[Guest]

The old code was ripped from Windows before Windows 8 was released; it didn't support new APIs that are found in the OS. This new Start is completely based upon new code.  

 

No, it wasn't, and no it isn't.

[Dot Matrix]

Link?

Source?   You talk with unexplained authority as if code manipulation is a one-way street.

 

1.) https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1081755-do-you-like-or-hate-windows-8/page-30#entry595048551

2.) http://www.extremetech.com/computing/141702-how-to-bring-the-start-menu-and-button-back-to-windows-8

3.) http://www.myce.com/news/final-version-of-windows-8-will-have-start-menu-code-removed-61930/?PageSpeed=noscript

 

"The start menu you're referring to had a lot of bugs because it wasn't kept in sync with other changes in the platform (i.e. MFU was totally broken, for one). It could not launch Metro style applications. It had no means to even represent them, because Metro style apps provide different resources. Its search infrastructure was similarly incompatible, didn't support new localization features, etc. It did not support our modern DPI scaling mechanism. It had problems with the new multi-mon features (i.e. secondary task bars)."

No, it wasn't, and no it isn't.

 

Read link #1 above. Also, read here: http://winsupersite.com/windows-10/start-menu-will-replace-start-screen-threshold

 

"In fact, in the summer before Windows 8 was released, Microsoft engineers very specifically stripped the legacy Start menu from the OS, in part so that third party utilities couldn't bring it back.

The new Threshold Start menu isn't based on the old Start menu. It is instead a new Start experience based on the Windows 8.x Start screen."

[TDT]

Windows Explorer crashes a lot in 9879.

Same here. Last night I clicked on the notifications icon and the explorer restarted. Then it was an endless loop of restarts, every 4-5 seconds, even if I wasn't doing anything. I had to reboot to "fix" the issue, but I have no idea what caused it. I checked the event logs and there were no errors, just infos. :s

[Studio384]

No, it wasn't, and no it isn't.

Actualy, Dot Matrix is right, the start menu as seen in Windows 10 sure has some code in it that is from the old Windows 7 menu, but the majority is rewritten due to that menu's limitations. The new start menu is mostly based on code from the start screen and Continuum. And yes, the original code was first disabled in the Developer Preview, but later ripped out completely, together with other code, like the ability to view DVDs (which became a plugin), etc.

[Elliot B.]

Same here. Last night I clicked on the notifications icon and the explorer restarted. Then it was an endless loop of restarts, every 4-5 seconds, even if I wasn't doing anything. I had to reboot to "fix" the issue, but I have no idea what caused it. I checked the event logs and there were no errors, just infos. :s

I've heard explorer is leaking GDI calls like a b****.

[Guest]

I guess we're talking about different things. The front-facing part might have been removed, but the stuff in the background was not. All features (if you can call them that) were still accessible through File Explorer, like grouping shortcuts into folders, creating per-user / per-machine folders and shortcuts, and so on.

 

Even the "glorious" Games Explorer is still there, just well hidden from the Screen / Menu.

[HawkMan]

I guess we're talking about different things. The front-facing part might have been removed, but the stuff in the background was not. All features (if you can call them that) were still accessible through File Explorer, like grouping shortcuts into folders, creating per-user / per-machine folders and shortcuts, and so on.

 

Even the "glorious" Games Explorer is still there, just well hidden from the Screen / Menu.

 

Those are basic explorer APIs that are used by the start menu among others, not part of the start menu.

[Ian S.]

What's wrong with folders and subfolders? I know a good search helps find files easier, but I still love subfolders it just makes everything more organized.

OSX has an application folder where all of the apps are housed. It keeps things simple and out is just drag and drop to install. If Microsoft could do this with the Start menu it would be great if it worked with desktop apps. Keep in mind OSX does not have menu structures in that application folder. Additionally, apps like iphoto have an package library were all the resources are held separately. To access it the user would not click but right click then show package contents. This is a much better way then the menu substructure.

[Active.]

OSX has an application folder where all of the apps are housed. It keeps things simple and out is just drag and drop to install. If Microsoft could do this with the Start menu it would be great if it worked with desktop apps.  

Would you want the actual application package to live in the Start Menu? I'm not sure I really see the argument against (user-created) folders. I would think the better comparison would be between Launchpad and the Start Menu / Start Screen.

[Ian S.]

Would you want the actual application package to live in the Start Menu? I'm not sure I really see the argument against (user-created) folders. I would think the better comparison would be between Launchpad and the Start Menu / Start Screen.

No the package would be in the proper library folder.

[PGHammer]

I was just gloating how stable win 10 is in hyper-v and this happens :(

 

Screenshot 2014-11-29 21.50.59.jpg

What are your settings in Hyper-V? (Guest side, that is.)

 

I posted my guest specs above, and I have nary a quibble.  (And yes - I did get sound working in RDC, following the "standard" procedure for any Windows guest using the RDC/Hyper-V guest tag-team.)

 

Did the BSOD occur after installing a particular application?

[remixedcat]

Nope it didn't it randomly happened

[adrynalyne]

OSX has an application folder where all of the apps are housed. It keeps things simple and out is just drag and drop to install. If Microsoft could do this with the Start menu it would be great if it worked with desktop apps. Keep in mind OSX does not have menu structures in that application folder. Additionally, apps like iphoto have an package library were all the resources are held separately. To access it the user would not click but right click then show package contents. This is a much better way then the menu substructure.

It actually does.  Each .app has its own contents and folder  structure.  Some even have their own folders with Apps in those, such as Utilities.

[PGHammer]

It's a well known fact that apps, in this case desktop apps abused the start menu by dumping a folder filled with more than just the app exe you wanted. That's not a good thing and mostly a issue with poor design from the original menu way back in Windows 95. It's why they pushed search so hard later on, the menu became folder hell.

 

The only things that should be in the menu is the app exe to start it and nothing else, hopefully they can force that when apps install, so far I think this is the case though.

 

As far as being able to have "folders" of your own making, then sure, I agree with this as a option. I also expect it to happen, keep in mind that the menu and the screen are sharing features. We have folders in WP now and that will come to the rest of windows with 10 as they unify everything.   Making a folder on the start screen should then keep it as a folder in the menu when you switch the UI.

The StartScreen DOES have some seriously-strong anti-clutter tech designed into it - mini-Start is just as rigorous; that is likely why Dot - and myself - are positing the idea that mini-Start is based on StartScreen code - NOT older Start-menu code.

 

I managed to spot a copy of 9888, and I'm tag-teaming it with the leaked beta of Office 16 in a VM (Hyper-V, to be precise) for testing in isolation.  (As is the case with 9879, I'm testing it with the defaults set - including mini-Start.)

[neo1911]

3D Mark 2013 does not install on build 9888

 

Idiotic coding checks for kernel version number I guess. Even trying compatibility mode is useless.

[DeadEndAccount]

I've heard explorer is leaking GDI calls like a b****.

 

To which I ask, why aren't they using Direct2D/DirectWrite yet? I mean, it was introduced almost 3 years ago and yet they could get Office 2013 taking advantage of it but they couldn't be stuffed getting explorer to use it? honestly, what is it with Microsoft developing awesome technologies then never fully embracing them like how Apple will go out, create a new framework and build their software straight on it - QuickTime X is based on AV Foundation/AV Kit, Final Cut Pro X uses OpenCL and OpenGL. Microsoft really do need to lift their game in those regards.

[spaceelf]

To which I ask, why aren't they using Direct2D/DirectWrite yet? I mean, it was introduced almost 3 years ago and yet they could get Office 2013 taking advantage of it but they couldn't be stuffed getting explorer to use it? honestly, what is it with Microsoft developing awesome technologies then never fully embracing them like how Apple will go out, create a new framework and build their software straight on it - QuickTime X is based on AV Foundation/AV Kit, Final Cut Pro X uses OpenCL and OpenGL. Microsoft really do need to lift their game in those regards.

Some drivers still have stupid issues with Office 2013.  You want the entire OS glitching out because people are too stupid to update their drivers?