Supreme Court Rules All States Must License And Recognize Same-Sex Marriages

[bguy_1986]

I'm honestly trying to figure out how you equate someone marrying a legal, consenting adult who isn't related, aka exactly the same as a straight couple as morals going out the door and allowing a society to degrade? Please explain that thought process...

 

There's plenty going wrong around the world right now, but I don't think gays are anywhere on that list....

Go back and see what I quoted before making that comment.  It's got nothing to do about gay people getting married.  Go away troll.

[DConnell Member]

It's not your choice to be gay, IT IS your choice to be an ###### and be part of the KKK so that comparison doesn't work.

 

If you want to exclude people from your business I feel you should be up front and center about it and announce it at the front door in big letters so everybody can see clearly before they choose to do business with you people. That seems like a fair thing to do

 

And you ignored the main point of my argument. Again, refusing service at the establishment and not wishing to go provide services at an event you're not comfortable with are two entirely different things. Why is it ok to force someone to participate in an event?

 

Another example: I occasionally do freelance computer support. Should I be required to take a job that takes me to an area of town I'm not comfortable with?

[TPreston]

So you can refuse service based on whether someone has shoes/shirt/proper attire, but not based on your beliefs?

 

That case wasn't about refusing service on site, but not catering a gay wedding.

No difference legally.

So its right to force someone to go to an environment in which they don't feel comfortable to provide a service? So blacks should be forced to provide services at a KKK event, I guess? Or an Irish pub should cater an Orangemen's event? (Look it up.)

Political beliefs are not protected replace the word KKK with white persons and Orangemen with English person for an accurate comparison.

Legal recognition of gay marriage is one thing, but how is it right to force people to participate in the event like you're suggesting? How does that promote acceptance or equality? I'm sorry, but I don't see how "Like it or else!" is a positive step. You can't bully people into agreeing with you, and attempts like this to do so are as reprehensible in their own way as the injustice the gay community is fighting. But the activists need to realize that "I don't agree with you" does not equal "I hate you".

Its not bulling its equality if you don't like civil rights laws then repeal them all.

[shockz]

Go back and see what I quoted before making that comment.  It's got nothing to do about gay people getting married.  Go away troll.

Oh wow, you're right. My mistake. I'm just so used to your constant nonsense about gays that I overlooked. Easy to do.

[Stoffel]

And you ignored the main point of my argument. Again, refusing service at the establishment and not wishing to go provide services at an event you're not comfortable with are two entirely different things. Why is it ok to force someone to participate in an event?

 

What I suggested let's you opt out of it. But it also let's me know before I walk into your store what kind of person you are and i can still choose to take my business somewhere else.

[+JHBrown Subscriber¹]

Although I disagree with the lifestyle choice, same sex marriage does not affect me personally one bit. Everyone should have the opportunity to see just how hard a marriage really is.

[T3X4S]

Thankfully church attendance is constantly dropping in the US.

So comical using the Bible as a moral compass.

[Emn1ty]

It's not your choice to be gay, IT IS your choice to be an ###### and be part of the KKK so that comparison doesn't work.

 

If you want to exclude people from your business I feel you should be up front and center about it and announce it at the front door in big letters so everybody can see clearly before they choose to do business with you people. That seems like a fair thing to do

 

May not be a choice to be gay, it is definitely a choice to be intolerant of other's beliefs. If you can't deal with the fact that some people do not want to be around homosexual couples and rituals then that's on you, not them. Tolerance goes both ways, and forcing people into situations where they do not want to be does not help matters.

[DConnell Member]

What I suggested let's you opt out of it. But it also let's me know before I walk into your store what kind of person you are and i can still choose to take my business somewhere else.

 

Which the couple in question could have done, rather than attempting to put the provider out of business. Disproportionate reaction IMO.

 

No difference legally.

Political beliefs are not protected replace the word KKK with white persons and Orangemen with English person for an accurate comparison.

Its not bulling its equality if you don't like civil rights laws then repeal them all.

 

Another response that ignores the actual question in favor of picking apart the details.

 

The point remains, why should someone be forced to provide services, in essence participate in, an event which makes them uncomfortable? What is gained with the "fall in line or else" attitude? Neither of you have answered that question.

[Stoffel]

May not be a choice to be gay, it is definitely a choice to be intolerant of other's beliefs. If you can't deal with the fact that some people do not want to be around homosexual couples and rituals then that's on you, not them. Tolerance goes both ways, and forcing people into situations where they do not want to be does not help matters.

 

I'm not forcing anybody to do anything they don't want to do. But they should be up front about it so I can avoid your business.

If a certain store doesn't want to allow black people in, I want to know, because I would avoid that store even though i'm not black.

I would do the same with a store that doesn't want to cater to LGBT people. It only seems fair you come out to everybody if you are a business.

[TPreston]

Another response that ignores the actual question in favor of picking apart the details.

Anyone can ask a question that dosnt mean its a valid question, your hypothetical situation isn't covered by civil rights law mine is.

 

The point remains, why should someone be forced to provide services, in essence participate in, an event which makes them uncomfortable? What is gained with the "fall in line or else" attitude? Neither of you have answered that question.

Because they demand others do the same for them as per title II of the civil rights act.

 

May not be a choice to be gay, it is definitely a choice to be intolerant of other's beliefs. If you can't deal with the fact that some people do not want to be around homosexual couples and rituals then that's on you, not them. Tolerance goes both ways, and forcing people into situations where they do not want to be does not help matters.

Where was all this care when you were trying to keep gay people second class citizens

 

 

Really enjoying today.  Not only is gay marriage legal, but right wingers are going ape ****.  Threatening to burn themselves alive (would only make our day better), and its amazing how sore of losers they are.  They seem to think their stupidity and ignorance would persist forever. 

 

Play the drinking game, Whenever someone says the world is going to end take a drink!

[Beyond Godlike]

Really enjoying today.  Not only is gay marriage legal, but right wingers are going ape ****.  Threatening to burn themselves alive (would only make our day better), and its amazing how sore of losers they are.  They seem to think their stupidity and ignorance would persist forever. 

[bguy_1986]

Oh wow, you're right. My mistake. I'm just so used to your constant nonsense about gays that I overlooked. Easy to do.

nonsense?  Sounds like you are intolerant about my beliefs and that's not fair!

I'm not forcing anybody to do anything they don't want to do. But they should be up front about it so I can avoid your business.

If a certain store doesn't want to allow black people in, I want to know, because I would avoid that store even though i'm not black.

I would do the same with a store that doesn't want to cater to LGBT people. It only seems fair you come out to everybody if you are a business.

Ok, so lets advertise "We don't do business with gay people!"  Would you rather see that, or would you rather somebody tell that person politely and quietly that they are sorry, I don't want to do business with you because of my religious beliefs."

 

No reason to make a huge deal about it.

[DConnell Member]

May not be a choice to be gay, it is definitely a choice to be intolerant of other's beliefs. If you can't deal with the fact that some people do not want to be around homosexual couples and rituals then that's on you, not them. Tolerance goes both ways, and forcing people into situations where they do not want to be does not help matters.

 

Precisely. You can't force a change of heart. But a willingness to coexist - from both sides - is a reasonable goal.

 

I don't agree with homosexuality, but I'm not going to give anyone a hard time over it. Let them have their beliefs, live their lives as they wish, and love who they choose to. As long as they are willing to allow me the same freedom to have my own beliefs, etc. I don't have a problem with others regardless of our differences, only if they try to force me to their view.

 

Live according to your beliefs, and let me live according to mine. I'll do the same.

 

Trying to force others to agree with you, and persecuting them, vilifying them for having different values wont' solve anything. And that's as much a failing of the anti-gay activists as the pro-gay ones.

[TPreston]

Ok, so lets advertise "We don't do business with gay people!"  Would you rather see that, or would you rather somebody tell that person politely and quietly that they are sorry, I don't want to do business with you because of my religious beliefs."

 

No reason to make a huge deal about it.

You can do that, When I can say "We don't do business with christians" oh wait I don't want to do that...

[Noir Angel]

Ok, so lets advertise "We don't do business with gay people!"  Would you rather see that, or would you rather somebody tell that person politely and quietly that they are sorry, I don't want to do business with you because of my religious beliefs."

 

No reason to make a huge deal about it.

 

My response would be the same as to everyone else. I'd take my business elsewhere and leave you a bad review, then let the free market decide whether they want to keep giving you business or not. People might not have the right to stop you believing, but they don't owe you tolerance or respect either. If you choose to hold those kind of opinions, you're going to get some backlash and that's something you're going to have to deal with. As I said previously there are consequences to voicing those kind of opinions, and if you choose to voice them you'll have to live with the consequences.

 

Free speech implies that the government have no right to prohibit you from voicing opinions. It doesn't force people to agree with, accept, or tolerate said opinions. And that's something you'll just have to deal with.

[Stoffel]

Ok, so lets advertise "We don't do business with gay people!"  Would you rather see that, or would you rather somebody tell that person politely and quietly that they are sorry, I don't want to do business with you because of my religious beliefs."

 

No reason to make a huge deal about it.

 

YES that's exactly what I want to see, so everybody knows you as a business don't want to deal with gay people. Because that will also influence me to avoid your business. I don't want to spend my money in a business that has such bigoted views!

[PGHammer]

No, just simply no.

 

No, just simply no.

Got any evidence (or data) otherwise?

 

I'm not going by my opinion - but hard data.  You may not like it - heck, I have my qualms with it - however, the hard data says otherwise.

[bguy_1986]

YES that's exactly what I want to see, so everybody knows you as a business don't want to deal with gay people. Because that will also influence me to avoid your business. I don't want to spend my money in a business that has such bigoted views!

How about you respect and tolerate my religious views as protected by the Constitution!

[Stoffel]

How about you respect and tolerate my religious views as protected by the Constitution!

 

Isn't it also my right to choose not to spend my money in a place if I don't like their point of view.

What you expect is that you can have your views and keep them hidden from most to keep doing business. Doesn't seem fair

If you don't want to deal with gay people be clear and open about it. That's how I feel

[bguy_1986]

Isn't it also my right to choose not to spend my money in a place if I don't like their point of view.

What you expect is that you can have your views and keep them hidden from most to keep doing business. Doesn't seem fair

If you don't want to deal with gay people be clear and open about it. That's how I feel

I understand your point, but I'm not sure how putting a sign up saying no gays allowed is going to fix it without causing more hate going back and forth.

[DConnell Member]

My response would be the same as to everyone else. I'd take my business elsewhere and leave you a bad review, then let the free market decide whether they want to keep giving you business or not. People might not have the right to stop you believing, but they don't owe you tolerance or respect either. If you choose to hold those kind of opinions, you're going to get some backlash and that's something you're going to have to deal with. As I said previously there are consequences to voicing those kind of opinions, and if you choose to voice them you'll have to live with the consequences.

 

Free speech implies that the government have no right to prohibit you from voicing opinions. It doesn't force people to agree with, accept, or tolerate said opinions. And that's something you'll just have to deal with.

 

Valid point, but it seems to me the reverse is true. If someone living a Christian lifestyle isn't automatically owed tolerance and respect, then neither are gays, or anyone else really. The problem with the situation we're discussing is that gays, at least the activist ones, demand tolerance and respect, but aren't willing to show any in return. Given the history of being treated unfairly, that's understandable, but it leads to a vicious circle of neither side being tolerant.

 

Basically, it's always been my experience that you need to give respect to get it. Not always guaranteed of course, but if you don't show someone respect, you have no call to expect it back. If the activists are willing to destroy someone's livelihood over turning down a job then I don't see how they deserve the respect they demand. Even if the refusal was rude, it still comes across as a disproportionate, hateful reaction.

 

Even if the refusal was truly a hateful reaction rather than simply discomfort, how is adding more hate to the situation a good thing? Better to just take the business elsewhere and leave the bad review like you said. Starting a crusade against the business - that's epic overkill, and just undermines the message that they want tolerance. How can you reasonably ask for something you're not willing to give to others?

[TPreston]

 

Even if the refusal was truly a hateful reaction rather than simply discomfort, how is adding more hate to the situation a good thing? Better to just take the business elsewhere and leave the bad review like you said. Starting a crusade against the business - that's epic overkill, and just undermines the message that they want tolerance. How can you reasonably ask for something you're not willing to give to others?

Tolerance != allowing people to discriminate against you while being protected from discrimination

[DConnell Member]

Tolerance != allowing people to discriminate against you while being protected from discrimination

 

And that has to do with anything I said how? Deciding not to take a job does not constitute discrimination. On the other hand, deciding to destroy someone's liveihood just because you don't like their beliefs is not only discrimination, it's a hate crime.

[Stoffel]

I understand your point, but I'm not sure how putting a sign up saying no gays allowed is going to fix it without causing more hate going back and forth.

 

You don't like the disclaimer that your business doesn't want to deal with the LGBT community, but you feel it's ok to tell them individually when they enter your business? That kinda seems like you don't want everybody to know how you feel. Why is that? Is it shame because you know you are on the wrong side of the debate? Otherwise you would be more open about it, no?