The Windows 10 Tablet Experience

[thomastmc]

I love W10 on the Surface Pro 3 (I've been using it full time for over a month, and tried some earlier builds as well). It is, in fact, easier to use the desktop with touch than W81. The ability to write in any text area with the stylus is great too, especially in forms and Photoshop, and it's really intuitive. Auto-switching from Tablet mode to Desktop was something I thought I wouldn't use, but it's actually pretty nifty. Task switching is 10x better than W81. Also, just the look and feel of the OS is better, more modern.

 

I do like the old horizontal Start screen in W81 more than the vertical scrolling Start menu though, and I miss the sliding brightness control from 0-100 one quick swipe away. I also miss the swipe to go back and forth in modern IE11, but hopefully they'll implement that in Edge. Oh well...

 

PS... I had to use old IE11 to post this because the post button does nothing in Edge 10166.

 

Oh, and the back button on the taskbar is very fairly nice as well.

Edited July 13, 2015 by thomastmc

[George P Global Moderator]

They should hurry up and tweak edge for tablet mode, it needs a specific UI adjustment, if they can't get it to move it's bars to the bottom then it should at least make them bigger so it's easier to use with touch.

 

I think in the end though it will match with the mobile version and act/look more like modern IE11 does on 8.1 when you switch to tablet mode.  We'll see how long it takes them to add that in though.

[jakem1]

 

3. How can you switch automatically without detaching the keyboard? If it detects a keyboard, it should remain out of Tablet Mode. Otherwise it is broken and you should report it through the Feedback app. And if a Windows feature requires drivers, shouldn't they be included in Windows itself? I have posted about this on Microsoft's Insider forum and no-one has suggested it is a driver issue.

 

On a Yoga I would expect the switch to tablet mode to occur when you fold the keyboard back behind the monitor.  Drivers would be needed for this and I would expect Lenovo to provide them, not Microsoft. 

[coth]

Horizontal scrolling was good for tablets designed for landscape orientation, but for small tablets meant to be used in portrait mode more often, it didn't make sense. Microsoft had to pick between the two scrolling direction. They most likely went with the vertical scroll because it worked nicely with smaller tablets and it was what most people were used to.

Portrait orientation you mean. But actually almost every phone has horizontal scrolling on desktop. Yet vertical scrolling in everything else.

I don't see a problem with horizontal scrolling on home screen. But hardly an end user will have so much tiles, so it will require more than 1 or 2 screens.

In overall tablet experience is very good. Home screen and menu, though, needs a big improvement on both desktop and tablet.

[Motor_Mouth]

As technology progresses, we're packing more and more pixels onto a display. The point of this is to make it so that you can't distinguish individual pixels. 100% would be very hard to use not only for tablets, but as a laptop as well.

 

Yet I comfrotably run both my laptop and 8" tablet with 100% scaling, making your point both incorrect and irrelevant.

 

He's not running it at that scaling because it makes things easy to touch with a finger, it just makes more sense all around for the size of the screen.

 

But it's a Surface, so when he wants to use it as a laptop he will have to change the scaling, which requires going deep into Settings - Settings, System, Display. That's a lot of work for something you could be doing a dozen times a day.

 

As for Edge, it is a step back when it comes to tablet browsing, but not by much.

 

Yes, by a large amount, like 4mm against 10mm, which is 2.5 times.

 

The problem with Windows 8 was that the interface had a very steep learning curve. On Windows 10, the learning curve is almost nonexistence. Microsoft took what worked and built on top of it.

 

Not even close on either of these points. Firstly, the learning curve for Windows 10 will be far steeper for people coming from Windows 7 than Windows 8 is because a lot more has changed and there is less consistency in how things work. e.g. In tablet mode I can close any application by dragging it's title bar down to the bottom of the screen but if I try to do that when I am not in tablet mode, all it does is push the window down below the Taskbar where I can't get at it any more. I do this once or twice a day, even after 6 weeks of using WIndows 10. At least with W8, you know which apps will behave that way and which won't.

 

As for taking what worked, Windows 10 is far more like Windows 8 than it is like any othe rversion of Windows. You can't name a single thing that isn't. e.g. The Start Menu doesn't have a single feature from Windows 7's Start, it is just a (poorly) repackaged version of Windows 8's Start Screen.

 

If people say they like Windows 10 on a tablet, then they like it. It's their opinion and their entitled to it. We get that you don't like the Windows 10 tablet experience, there's no need for you to constantly mention the same thing. It's gotten to the point where you drilled your views into our head, but then continue to drill it out the other side.

 

What does "like" have to do with anything? It's not about "like", it's about whether or not it is an improvement over Windows 8. It's an objective assessment and has absolutely nothing at all to do with what you like or don't like. WHy do people have so much trouble understanding this?

[Motor_Mouth]

LOL...wait a minute. You are complaining because you set scaling to 100% for a 1900x1200 screen at 10 inches and things weren't touch friendly?

 

Where this completely falls down is that I can run my 8" tablet without any scaling and it is perfectly usable, as shown in the second photo. In fact, that is precisely what makes my 8" tablet the awesome device that it is - I can run Phhotoshop, After Effects and 3DS Max with my mouse and keyboard, then pick it up and stretch out in front of the telly and surf the 'net without having to change modes or scaling or anything else. It is literally a seamless experience thanks to Windows 8.

[Motor_Mouth]

On a Yoga I would expect the switch to tablet mode to occur when you fold the keyboard back behind the monitor.  Drivers would be needed for this and I would expect Lenovo to provide them, not Microsoft. 

It's not that kind of Yoga, it's the kind that come sin silver with Android and black with Windows, in 8" or 10" form factors. It's the one with the big barrel along the base and the super-thin screen.

[adrynalyne]

Where this completely falls down is that I can run my 8" tablet without any scaling and it is perfectly usable, as shown in the second photo. In fact, that is precisely what makes my 8" tablet the awesome device that it is - I can run Phhotoshop, After Effects and 3DS Max with my mouse and keyboard, then pick it up and stretch out in front of the telly and surf the 'net without having to change modes or scaling or anything else. It is literally a seamless experience thanks to Windows 8.

I don't believe for a second that the 8inch is showing bigger items without scaling. Lenovo has it tweaked and you just didn't realize it.

[Motor_Mouth]

LOOK AT THE PHOTO!!! It is right there in front of your eyes in living colour. Both tablets have scaling set to 100%, the UIs of the desktop software I have installed on both look exactly the same on each. I have also shown another image that shows the relative sizes of the touch targets in Edge and IE 11. For that I used my laptop, not the tablet, and the result is identical.

 

Have a look at Edge, it's UI is little different from Chrome or Firefox or IE on the desktop. If you have ever tried to use Windows 7 with a touchscreen, you will know exactly how bad the experience is trying to use Edge on a tablet.

[adrynalyne]

LOOK AT THE PHOTO!!! It is right there in front of your eyes in living colour. Both tablets have scaling set to 100%, the UIs of the desktop software I have installed on both look exactly the same on each. I have also shown another image that shows the relative sizes of the touch targets in Edge and IE 11. For that I used my laptop, not the tablet, and the result is identical.

 

Have a look at Edge, it's UI is little different from Chrome or Firefox or IE on the desktop. If you have ever tried to use Windows 7 with a touchscreen, you will know exactly how bad the experience is trying to use Edge on a tablet.

A photo means little when you have Lenovo tweaking the scaling.

 

Go install Windows 8.1 retail without any Lenovo software and then we will talk.

 

We have ~100 Windows 8.1 Embedded tablets here for a project, and everything is tiny without scaling.

[Dashel]

Good video, I agree.  Consistency of behavior.

 

Regarding Edge, I don't think the new abilities, particularly 'Notes', is being giving enough credit in regards to the UI setup which is a much more interesting development for touch.  Edge needs two rows (tabs and app controls), and as we see with the taskbar, hiding it is actually less efficient over time if you plan to actually use it.

 

Loud noises!

[Motor_Mouth]

What consistency? One minute I can close a window by dragging it to the bottom of the screen, the next minute I do that and all it does is move the window off the bottom of the screen where I can't get at it to close it properly. Where is the consistency in that?

 

As for notes in Edge, what the hell would I use that for? I don't even know how it is supposed to work, let alone why I'd want it.

 

A photo means little when you have Lenovo tweaking the scaling.

 

Go install Windows 8.1 retail without any Lenovo software and then we will talk.

 

Don't be absurd. They are both Lenovo devices so if what you say has even a shred of truth in it, which is most assuredly does not, it would affect both equally. As I have said, all desktop UIs look EXACTLY THE SAME on both devices and my 15" Dell laptop, so they are clearly all running at their native 1920x1200, unless you are deluded enough to think it is some vast, global conspiracy designed just to ###### me off. And yes, everything is tiny at 1920x1080, that's my f*#king point! Windows 8 still works when everything is tiny, Windows 10 doesn't.

[+Elі Subscriber²]

Well I got my Surface 3 yesterday and aside from a few lockups and freezes (which I'm sure will be fixed soon) I'm absolutely loving the experience, so much better than 8.1, now disabling scaling will for sure totally ruin the tablet experience Motor_Mouth :-) don't complain.

[TAZMINATOR]

anyone figure out how to get to the task manager in tablet mode? the right click option for it is gone from the taskbar

 

CTRL+SHIFT+ESC keys at once.  This method works in the either desktop or tablet mode.

[adrynalyne]

What consistency? One minute I can close a window by dragging it to the bottom of the screen, the next minute I do that and all it does is move the window off the bottom of the screen where I can't get at it to close it properly. Where is the consistency in that?

 

As for notes in Edge, what the hell would I use that for? I don't even know how it is supposed to work, let alone why I'd want it.

 

 

Don't be absurd. They are both Lenovo devices so if what you say has even a shred of truth in it, which is most assuredly does not, it would affect both equally. As I have said, all desktop UIs look EXACTLY THE SAME on both devices and my 15" Dell laptop, so they are clearly all running at their native 1920x1200, unless you are deluded enough to think it is some vast, global conspiracy designed just to ###### me off. And yes, everything is tiny at 1920x1080, that's my f*#king point! Windows 8 still works when everything is tiny, Windows 10 doesn't.

Your opinion is just that. You would be best to learn that. 

 

I think you are just upset that you didn't get the support for the MS hate train that you thought you would.

 

1920x1080, 1900x1200, they are tiny without scaling. You set it up that way, deal with it or turn on scaling.

Scaling is to prevent the issue you are having. It is YOU who decided to turn it off.

 

As resolution goes up and screen size does not, things get smaller unless there is scaling. I thought everyone knew this.

 

If things are too small, use scaling. Or don't, I couldn't care less. This isn't GNU/Linux, you don't get to make it your own way. You must work within the confines of the OS or figure out how to mod it yourself.

 

And again, you probably have automatic scaling enabled in 8.1.

[Seahorsepip Veteran]

CTRL+SHIFT+ESC keys at once. This method works in the either desktop or tablet mode.

Yup and for crt+alt+del you can press power+home if I remember correctly.

[Motor_Mouth]

Well I got my Surface 3 yesterday and aside from a few lockups and freezes (which I'm sure will be fixed soon) I'm absolutely loving the experience, so much better than 8.1, now disabling scaling will for sure totally ruin the tablet experience Motor_Mouth :-) don't complain.

 

Why shouldn't I complain!?! It is not a problem with Windows 8, it works beautifully with no scaling. That's my whole point. Maybe you are willing to bend over and take whatever load of garbage Microsoft want to shovel your way but I'm not going to upgrade to a new version unless and until it can at least match the experience I currently enjoy.

 

Can you give us a few examples of how you are finding W10 better than W8? I'd be interested to hear because to me it is 90% the same and the other 10% is worse. The best I could possibly say about it is that they have swapped one set of issues for another.

[Motor_Mouth]

Your opinion is just that. You would be best to learn that. 

 

I think you are just upset that you didn't get the support for the MS hate train that you thought you would.

 

1920x1080, 1900x1200, they are tiny without scaling. You set it up that way, deal with it or turn on scaling.

Scaling is to prevent the issue you are having. It is YOU who decided to turn it off.

 

As resolution goes up and screen size does not, things get smaller unless there is scaling. I thought everyone knew this.

 

If things are too small, use scaling. Or don't, I couldn't care less. This isn't GNU/Linux, you don't get to make it your own way. You must work within the confines of the OS or figure out how to mod it yourself.

 

And again, you probably have automatic scaling enabled in 8.1.

 

It's not an opinion, these are FACTS. Measurable, repeatable, indisputable FACTS. Just as your comment "1920x1080, 1900x1200, they are tiny without scaling" is a fact and "as resolution goes up and screen size does not, things get smaller unless there is scaling" is a fact (although it seems it is the Windows Dev Team you need to remind of this). Windows 8 is perfectly usable without scaling, even on an 8" screen is also a fact, as is the fact that Windows 10 is not. IT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF MY ARGUMENT. I shouldn't have to keep changing the scaling every time I move between desktop and tablet operation, especially as you're expected to sign out every time you do. It's pretty much the definition of a sh!thouse user experience, don't you think?

[adrynalyne]

It's not an opinion, these are FACTS. Measurable, repeatable, indisputable FACTS. Just as your comment "1920x1080, 1900x1200, they are tiny without scaling" is a fact and "as resolution goes up and screen size does not, things get smaller unless there is scaling" is a fact (although it seems it is the Windows Dev Team you need to remind of this). Windows 8 is perfectly usable without scaling, even on an 8" screen is also a fact, as is the fact that Windows 10 is not. IT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF MY ARGUMENT. I shouldn't have to keep changing the scaling every time I move between desktop and tablet operation, especially as you're expected to sign out every time you do. It's pretty much the definition of a sh!thouse user experience, don't you think?

You have two tablets on 8.1 and make this claim, which is an opinion. I have 100 8inch tablets at work that disagree with you in regards to scaling.

I've told you about scaling and so have several other people in this thread. Your mind is made up, nothing is going to change it.

You want things small on the desktop but don't want it to affect metro.

It doesn't work that way, not even in 8.1.

[Dashel]

There is some validity to his issue.  Win8 apps were so stupidly big that he was able to get away with not using it properly (ie scaling).  Now that MS has fixed that, he's upset.

 

MS really needs to kill off the close gesture 'in app'.  That's the last bit of Win8 nonsense that remains.

 

"In tablet mode I can close any application by dragging it's title bar down to the bottom of the screen but if I try to do that when I am not in tablet mode, all it does is push the window down below the Taskbar where I can't get at it any more. I do this once or twice a day, even after 6 weeks of using WIndows 10. At least with W8, you know which apps will behave that way and which won't. - MM"

 

For the lulz, you paint quite the picture. 

[Beyond Godlike]

People have been wanting a taskbar on Android forever...im glad its part of the touch experience!

[George P Global Moderator]

Some like it, some won't, for those they might as well just autohide it.  I'm pretty indifferent about the taskbar in tablet mode, I can use it with or without one, having one keeps things familiar at least.  It also matches with the control/tray bars on phone, while those are split between top and bottom, on tablets, in tablet mode, they're one bar along the bottom, still keeps it consistent between the two versions of Windows 10.

[adrynalyne]

OK folks, time to pack it in, only Motor_Mouth is correct in this thread.

[Beyond Godlike]

No, I have one tablet on 8.1 and one on 10, which enables me to make direct comparisons rather than simply speculate or work from memory.

 

 

Of course it does, I have shown you the photos. You just don't want to accept the facts for whatever ridiculous reason. If you want to convince me, show me how I am wrong. Provide screenshots and/or photos, as I have. But you won't because you're afraid it might upset your worldview, where Microsoft can do no wrong.

 

 

You are looking at it incorrectly. You are assuming, as Microsoft seem to be, that tablets are tablets and PCs are PCs and ne'er the twain shall meet but that is wrongheaded. In fact, that thought is the root of the problem. Windows 8 acknowledges that users may want to use a tablet as a PC or a PC as a tablet, and swap between the two modes of operation regularly, hence the "stupidly big" apps for tablet use that work brilliantly without having to change the display scaling and log-out. Mind you, not much of that has changed in W10, Settings is just as "stupidly big" as it is in W8, for example. The real issue is that they've taken it away in some of the places it needs to stay and left in places where it probably doesn't.

 

 

Looking at the equipment list in your signature, you are speculating and have no real idea what it is like or how it works. Pardon me, then, for not putting any stock in your opinion. What I don't like about the Taskbar being there is that it is along an edge, where you tend to pick your tablet up and put it down, which I find hugely inconvenient because I'm always accidently pressing things. I saw a video where someone had their taskbar on the side, which seemed like a good idea. It works OK for tablet use but is annoying as hell on the Desktop, so it's not a solution. Ditto for auto-hiding. What I think will solve the problem is separate Taskbar settings for tablet mode that don't affect desktop use. Add in separate scaling for Tablet Mode and things will suddenly get a lot better. Even then, though, there will still be the issue of Edge being no more usable with touch than Chrome or Firefox.

 

Anyway, I finally got some useful advice last night. By going into compatibility settings for every Win32 .exe and telling it to ignore display scaling, I can kind of have the best of both worlds. It's made things a lot better but I still don't find Edge as usable as the Modern IE 11, even at 200% zoom. It's a kludge that would allow me to manage with Windows 10 if I was forced to but I still don't see it as a worthwhile replacement for Windows 8, so I still won't be upgrading.

 

 

Equipment list is out of date.  I'm on an HP Spectre x360 now...and I think the taskbar will be handy rather than the weird task switcher thats awkward to get to (for metro).  

 

For my desktop, its an updated gaming rig...You bring up a point about the taskbar being a negative there..I'll have to wait and see. 

[Osiris]

I don't see how this video proves anything other than the user is clutching at straws to prove win10 tablet is issueless. 

• Its easier to scroll the start screen vertically rather than swiping across the screen - you never had to swipe across the screen.  Can scroll horizontally with the thumb just as easily in an equally limited space..if not easier in win8.
• No back button....wtf do I need a back button for on a touch display? in the Modern control panel if im in display and want to go back to 'default' I press the default icon I don't need to press back right at the bottom of a taskbar.  If anything they should have innovated and built in swipe based 'back' just like in Modern IE.
• Task view - win10 one is an improvement but this just shows how little this guy knows of win8, if you swipe the top left you get a menu of all your open apps so you don't have to sit their flicking left left left till you get the one you want.
• "Multi-tasking is a lot quicker on windows10 than 8.1" we must have different definitions of a lot because im pretty certain there'd be less than a second difference between task switcher and left left left.

Then he concludes with everything is the same...no its not its a cluttered mess of different UI paradigms and pointless additions to keep people feeling like they are on a desktop when they are on damn a tablet.

 

In summary this video proved nothing, didn't highlight any of the real issues with win10 tablet. 

 

Windows8 remains the best thing to happen to tablets since peniccilan and codeine and windows 10 is a compromised mess highlighting the danger of over-reacting to one groups feedback (eg desktop users to win8) and trying to build a unified UI for multiple devices without a design philosophy and ethos to guide you.