The Windows 10 Tablet Experience

[adrynalyne]

I don't see how this video proves anything other than the user is clutching at straws to prove win10 tablet is issueless. 

• Its easier to scroll the start screen vertically rather than swiping across the screen - you never had to swipe across the screen.  Can scroll horizontally with the thumb just as easily in an equally limited space..if not easier in win8.
• No back button....wtf do I need a back button for on a touch display? in the Modern control panel if im in display and want to go back to 'default' I press the default icon I don't need to press back right at the bottom of a taskbar.  If anything they should have innovated and built in swipe based 'back' just like in Modern IE.
• Task view - win10 one is an improvement but this just shows how little this guy knows of win8, if you swipe the top left you get a menu of all your open apps so you don't have to sit their flicking left left left till you get the one you want.
• "Multi-tasking is a lot quicker on windows10 than 8.1" we must have different definitions of a lot because im pretty certain there'd be less than a second difference between task switcher and left left left.

Then he concludes with everything is the same...no its not its a cluttered mess of different UI paradigms and pointless additions to keep people feeling like they are on a desktop when they are on damn a tablet.

 

In summary this video proved nothing, didn't highlight any of the real issues with win10 tablet. 

 

Windows8 remains the best thing to happen to tablets since peniccilan and codeine and windows 10 is a compromised mess highlighting the danger of over-reacting to one groups feedback (eg desktop users to win8) and trying to build a unified UI for multiple devices without a design philosophy and ethos to guide you.

[jakem1]

I don't see how this video proves anything other than the user is clutching at straws to prove win10 tablet is issueless. 

• Its easier to scroll the start screen vertically rather than swiping across the screen - you never had to swipe across the screen.  Can scroll horizontally with the thumb just as easily in an equally limited space..if not easier in win8.
• No back button....wtf do I need a back button for on a touch display? in the Modern control panel if im in display and want to go back to 'default' I press the default icon I don't need to press back right at the bottom of a taskbar.  If anything they should have innovated and built in swipe based 'back' just like in Modern IE.
• Task view - win10 one is an improvement but this just shows how little this guy knows of win8, if you swipe the top left you get a menu of all your open apps so you don't have to sit their flicking left left left till you get the one you want.
• "Multi-tasking is a lot quicker on windows10 than 8.1" we must have different definitions of a lot because im pretty certain there'd be less than a second difference between task switcher and left left left.

Then he concludes with everything is the same...no its not its a cluttered mess of different UI paradigms and pointless additions to keep people feeling like they are on a desktop when they are on damn a tablet.

 

In summary this video proved nothing, didn't highlight any of the real issues with win10 tablet. 

 

Windows8 remains the best thing to happen to tablets since peniccilan and codeine and windows 10 is a compromised mess highlighting the danger of over-reacting to one groups feedback (eg desktop users to win8) and trying to build a unified UI for multiple devices without a design philosophy and ethos to guide you.

 

Task switching in Windows 8 is poorly implemented. You and I might know about the ability to swipe in and out to see a list of running apps but it's not obvious and plenty of people don't know that they can do that. In the meantime, swiping from the left can seem random and confusing. Windows 10's solution is task switching done right and it's exactly what I've wanted for the last three years.

[link6155]

If you're coming from an Android tablet, Windows 10 will feel right at home. The taskbar is laid out similarly to the soft keys from Android Jelly Bean, the task switcher is just like Android Jelly Bean, and overall there's an "Android" vibe (customization, open-platform, etc). I think Microsoft did a good job designing Windows 10 in this regard.

 

Android Lollipop is really bad for tablets. They essentially took the phone UI and then stretched it out to a tablet form factor. If you liked Android on tablets before lollipop, Windows 10 is certainly worth switching to.

[Seahorsepip Veteran]

Looking at the equipment list in your signature, you are speculating and have no real idea what it is like or how it works. Pardon me, then, for not putting any stock in your opinion. What I don't like about the Taskbar being there is that it is along an edge, where you tend to pick your tablet up and put it down, which I find hugely inconvenient because I'm always accidently pressing things. I saw a video where someone had their taskbar on the side, which seemed like a good idea. It works OK for tablet use but is annoying as hell on the Desktop, so it's not a solution. Ditto for auto-hiding. What I think will solve the problem is separate Taskbar settings for tablet mode that don't affect desktop use. Add in separate scaling for Tablet Mode and things will suddenly get a lot better. Even then, though, there will still be the issue of Edge being no more usable with touch than Chrome or Firefox.

What did you have in mind for the taskbar? You can hide the taskbar itself, remove the app icons and put it in whatever position you want. I don't know what you have in mind that could improve on this ?

[George P Global Moderator]

Not everyones going to agree here, but the important thing is what the majority think.  I personally liked both the Windows 8 and this new Windows 10 tablet mode, I can see and agree with the changes made, so that it's consistent with the phone UI more and also familiar to desktop users to, something Windows 8 wasn't.

 

I've posted this before but I'd only change a few things to tablet mode, not so much change but more like give the option to have, like a full screen app list as an option if that's what you want.  And the taskbar to autohide when in tablet mode and visible when in desktop mode, that should be an easy option for them to add.

 

In the end I think Windows 10 will be a huge success both on desktops, as people on 7 will finally look to upgrade and not skip it like they did with 8, but also on tablets and phones to, phones will gain from the core changes and UWAs as developers target "windows" itself and not split between desktop and phone like before. 

[tompkin]

What does "like" have to do with anything? It's not about "like", it's about whether or not it is an improvement over Windows 8. It's an objective assessment and has absolutely nothing at all to do with what you like or don't like. WHy do people have so much trouble understanding this?

If you objectively decide what is better, then more power to you.

However, "like" has everything to do with it. 

I assume that you have objectively determined that Windows 8 is superior to Android and iPhone. If "like" has nothing to do with it, then why does WP only have 3% of the market?

Your average person (who buy the vast majority of phones) do not objectively compare which phone is best. They don't even base it totally on price. Look at how many iPhones are sold at a far higher price than can truly be justified based on the "objectively determined" capability of the phones.

iPhones have brand loyalty by the people who buy them. So does WP. Look at the polls on Neowin that show that an overwhelming number of people plan to buy WP as their next phone. Nowhere near what the public at-large would say. So much for people buying based on objectively comparing. 

[Motor_Mouth]

I assume that you have objectively determined that Windows 8 is superior to Android and iPhone. If "like" has nothing to do with it, then why does WP only have 3% of the market?

 

Why would I do that? I don't use my phone to earn a living. It's basically a toy, so personal preference plays a much larger role. But we are not talking about Windows 10 Mobile or phones, we are talking about Windows 10 for PCs. However, if we were, I'd point out that my decision to use Windows Phone was as much to do with my distrust of Apple and Google as it was to do with the relative merits of each OS. I think of it more as the lesser of three evils than anything positive.

 

I will point out that popularity is good for the vendor but confers little or no benefit to end users. You can see it everywhere - the most popular things are never the best. e.g. Toyota's Corolla is the most popular car in the world but there is no measure by which anyone could consider it the best. Or the Big Mac - I've had hundreds of better burgers but none of them are more popular. This is why I say that "like" has nothing to do with it.

[+Elі Subscriber²]

Just upgraded both my desktop and my Surface 3, running smoothly on both devices, the lockups issues I was having on the Surface are fixed now, loving every aspect of it with the exception that Edge still does not remember it's window position when on desktop mode, aside from that this really feels like a tablet OS now, sure there's lots of room for improvement here but the overall experience is so much better than that of 8.1, good job Microsoft.

[Motor_Mouth]

OK folks, time to pack it in, only Motor_Mouth is correct in this thread.

 

Well, as I am the only one providing any evidence, that makes perfect sense. I've refuted several points in the video, and shown evidence to support my views, and what has been offered to refute that? Tired memes, dumb sarcasm and blind loyalty to a company that deserves none. It shows that a lot of people don't get what it is that makes Windows 8 so good for tablets and that others haven't even tried to use W10 on a tablet in any kind of meaningful way, yet are perfectly happy to have an opinion about it, no matter how wrong.

 

I've shown that touch targets (buttons) in Edge are just 4mm apart on my tablet and that my fingerprint on the screen is 10mm wide (much longer, of course), making it literally impossible to select just one button. That's not an opinion, it is verifiable fact and it makes a mockery of the video that purports to show that W10 is great on tablets.

 

As I type this, a new reply comes in that illustrates my frustration perfectly - an unqualified endorsement that offers no explanation, no examples and flies in the face of the experience of hundreds of other tablet users. Blind loyalty does not make Windows better. Quite the opposite, it means that poor decisions are accepted, even endorsed, creating new problems instead of eliminating old ones.

[Motor_Mouth]

What did you have in mind for the taskbar? You can hide the taskbar itself, remove the app icons and put it in whatever position you want. I don't know what you have in mind that could improve on this ?

 

They need to have separate settings, so it can be hidden in Tablet Mode, or placed on a different edge, without affecting it on the desktop (not in Tablet Mode). So when I am working on the desktop, the Taskbar would be where and how it has always been - across the bottom, always visible with large buttons (icons + labels) - but when I switch to Tablet Mode, I could have the option of it being along the left edge with small buttons (icons only) and/or for it to auto-hide. Of course, that is pretty much how it works in W8.1 so they would be giving W8 users the same consistency that people seem to think should be the sole preserve of W7 users in W10. i.e. The overall opinions expressed here and elsewhere seems to be that it is OK to screw over Windows 8 users in the pursuit of making Windows 7 users happy when, in reality, it would have been easier to make both sets of users happy by having less drastic change. e.g. Why remove the touch-friendly version of IE11 and not the desktop version, when Edge's UI is far more suited to desktop work than touch? It seems to be a choice deliberately aimed at placating Windows 7 users (those with a fear of change) at the expense of tablet users on Windows 8. But if they kept both versions of IE11 in, we'd all be happy. I certainly wouldn't be complaining about all of this and I'd have had all my PCs on Insider builds by now. It's one stupid decision that makes Windows 10 a no-go for me that, at least on the face of it, makes absolutely no sense, much like the last minute decision to remove the Start button from Windows 8.

[adrynalyne]

Well, as I am the only one providing any evidence, that makes perfect sense. I've refuted several points in the video, and shown evidence to support my views, and what has been offered to refute that? Tired memes, dumb sarcasm and blind loyalty to a company that deserves none. It shows that a lot of people don't get what it is that makes Windows 8 so good for tablets and that others haven't even tried to use W10 on a tablet in any kind of meaningful way, yet are perfectly happy to have an opinion about it, no matter how wrong.

I've shown that touch targets (buttons) in Edge are just 4mm apart on my tablet and that my fingerprint on the screen is 10mm wide (much longer, of course), making it literally impossible to select just one button. That's not an opinion, it is verifiable fact and it makes a mockery of the video that purports to show that W10 is great on tablets.

As I type this, a new reply comes in that illustrates my frustration perfectly - an unqualified endorsement that offers no explanation, no examples and flies in the face of the experience of hundreds of other tablet users. Blind loyalty does not make Windows better. Quite the opposite, it means that poor decisions are accepted, even endorsed, creating new problems instead of eliminating old ones.

Loyalty has nothing to do with it. Your argument is fundamentally broken because you turned off scaling and are whining because things are small.

Your proof consists of images with scaling turned off. We get it, things are small. You know how to fix it too.

[Forjo]

Motor_Mouth, you are most certainly not alone.  Help us convince Microsoft by posting here:

 

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/insider/forum/insider_wintp-insider_desktop/windows-10-tablet-mode-experience-is-much-worse/7bf4aafa-802a-4224-80d5-7a7f2e5f52ee

 

And open the feedback app and find the feedback I quoted in my most recent post.

 

A lot of us agree with you that Microsoft has take a rather large step backward in their attempts to win over Windows 7 (and prior) users. Necessary or not, I don't know. But I BELIEVE they could have satisfied both camps.

 

-Forjo

[Dashel]

That feedback is a treasure trove of bad ideas.

[Seahorsepip Veteran]

They need to have separate settings, so it can be hidden in Tablet Mode, or placed on a different edge, without affecting it on the desktop (not in Tablet Mode). So when I am working on the desktop, the Taskbar would be where and how it has always been - across the bottom, always visible with large buttons (icons + labels) - but when I switch to Tablet Mode, I could have the option of it being along the left edge with small buttons (icons only) and/or for it to auto-hide. Of course, that is pretty much how it works in W8.1 so they would be giving W8 users the same consistency that people seem to think should be the sole preserve of W7 users in W10. i.e. The overall opinions expressed here and elsewhere seems to be that it is OK to screw over Windows 8 users in the pursuit of making Windows 7 users happy when, in reality, it would have been easier to make both sets of users happy by having less drastic change. e.g. Why remove the touch-friendly version of IE11 and not the desktop version, when Edge's UI is far more suited to desktop work than touch? It seems to be a choice deliberately aimed at placating Windows 7 users (those with a fear of change) at the expense of tablet users on Windows 8. But if they kept both versions of IE11 in, we'd all be happy. I certainly wouldn't be complaining about all of this and I'd have had all my PCs on Insider builds by now. It's one stupid decision that makes Windows 10 a no-go for me that, at least on the face of it, makes absolutely no sense, much like the last minute decision to remove the Start button from Windows 8.

Good idea, I'll try to develop a tablet mode trigger tool in the future which can switch settings and run certain commando's when switching between tablet mode ^^

[Motor_Mouth]

Your argument is fundamentally broken because you turned off scaling and are whining because things are small.

 

No, I didn't "turn it off" at all. I was originally using it at the factory default setting, which is 150%. It is only when I wanted to do some screenshots a week or so ago that I set it to 100%, to match the way I have been working with my Thinkpad 8 for more than a year, which made the experience even worse.

 

Your proof consists of images with scaling turned off. We get it, things are small. You know how to fix it too.

 

The photos show that "things are small" in Windows 10 but they are of a usable size in Windows 8. So, yes, I know how to fix it - stop using Windows 10, which is precisely what I intend to do weekend after next.

 

This is the part that you seem desperate to ignore - 100% scaling works with Windows 8 but makes Windows 10 completely unusable. Scaling is not a solution because it's Windows and it has a desktop, which I also use, that would be unusable with scaling (my important software requires a minimum of 1280 pixels to display toolbars effectively). So what W10 would force me to do is to go through a seriously complex set of procedures every time I want to switch off my mouse and keyboard and sit in front of the TV and do a bit of casual web surfing, then go through the same rigmarole again before I put it back on the desk to do some more work, where W8 doesn't require me to do anything at all. And let's be clear, it is a seriously complex procedure -

• Swipe to open Action Centre
• Click to enter Tablet Mode
• Click on Settings
• Click on System
• Change scaling
• Log out
• Log in, which involves re-entering your password

[adrynalyne]

 

No, I didn't "turn it off" at all. I was originally using it at the factory default setting, which is 150%. It is only when I wanted to do some screenshots a week or so ago that I set it to 100%, to match the way I have been working with my Thinkpad 8 for more than a year, which made the experience even worse.

 

 

The photos show that "things are small" in Windows 10 but they are of a usable size in Windows 8. So, yes, I know how to fix it - stop using Windows 10, which is precisely what I intend to do weekend after next.

 

This is the part that you seem desperate to ignore - 100% scaling works with Windows 8 but makes Windows 10 completely unusable. Scaling is not a solution because it's Windows and it has a desktop, which I also use, that would be unusable with scaling (my important software requires a minimum of 1280 pixels to display toolbars effectively). So what W10 would force me to do is to go through a seriously complex set of procedures every time I want to switch off my mouse and keyboard and sit in front of the TV and do a bit of casual web surfing, then go through the same rigmarole again before I put it back on the desk to do some more work, where W8 doesn't require me to do anything at all. And let's be clear, it is a seriously complex procedure -

• Swipe to open Action Centre
• Click to enter Tablet Mode
• Click on Settings
• Click on System
• Change scaling
• Log out
• Log in, which involves re-entering your password

 

Well, good luck with your adventures.

 

I'll go back to my properly working scaling and tablet mode in Windows 10.

[Clirion]

Motor_Mouth,

Here is what I do not get.  I have been unable to get Win32 Applications to Ignore Scaling in Windows 8.1.  No matter what I do, it does not happen unless I tell the application to ignore it.

 

So by default, I cannot get Ignore Scaling to work.  The question becomes, why does this behavior happen for you and not me from an install of Windows 8.1?

The other question is,  What is the setting for Let me choose one scaling level for all of my monitors?  Is the box checked or no?

 

Because your experience is different from a lot of us in this thread in regards to scaling, I am interested in what is happening.

[Dashel]

Eschewing scaling is not a solution.  Do you think those apps won't be updated on Win8?  You found the solution for the 'couple' apps you feel compelled to use that way.  You do get how very tiny your use case is right?

 

Or you know, hook up a KVM.

[George P Global Moderator]

Scaling in Windows 10 between different monitors has been improved on compared to 8.x, but then Windows, at least the desktop, has always had it's issues with scaling things.

 

That said, winrt apps are by default and by their nature made for scaling while older win32 apps are not, so you're going to have issues, it's the apps that are the problem and not the OS.   Adobe for example had to redo photoshop to scale better specially to work on the Surface Pro 3.   Other developers don't seem to care though, so you're stuck with either changing the scaling yourself or dealing with them as they are.

[Motor_Mouth]

 

Motor_Mouth,

Here is what I do not get.  I have been unable to get Win32 Applications to Ignore Scaling in Windows 8.1.  No matter what I do, it does not happen unless I tell the application to ignore it. So by default, I cannot get Ignore Scaling to work.  The question becomes, why does this behavior happen for you and not me from an install of Windows 8.1?

 

I have to set it application by application, same as you, by right-clicking on the .exe files one at a time. I've only got a few things installed on my Yoga 2 but my Thinkpad 8 has most of the software I've got on my workstation, which would be a huge hassle to go through.

 

The other question is,  What is the setting for Let me choose one scaling level for all of my monitors?  Is the box checked or no?

 

I can't see those settings at all. It seems to have been replaced with the dsiplay options that were previously in the Charms Bar.

[Motor_Mouth]

Eschewing scaling is not a solution.  Do you think those apps won't be updated on Win8?

 

They won't be updated if I don't allow them to be, although I would hope app developers are not as stupid as Microsoft are on this. If they are developing UWP apps, they will have an eye for phone screens as well.

 

You found the solution for the 'couple' apps you feel compelled to use that way.  You do get how very tiny your use case is right?

 

I dunno, given that my biggest problem is with Edge, that even 200% scaling doesn't make it very good and that most people tend to use their browser a lot, I think the majority of tablet users will be deeply unhappy, as evidenced by the huge number of problems reported in Windows feedback.

 

Or you know, hook up a KVM.

 

Right, go out and buy a device to clutter my desk, just so I can use WIndows 10. That makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? Things are supposed to get better so we can have less of that sort of cruft on our desks, not more.

 

That said, winrt apps are by default and by their nature made for scaling while older win32 apps are not, so you're going to have issues, it's the apps that are the problem and not the OS.   Adobe for example had to redo photoshop to scale better specially to work on the Surface Pro 3.   Other developers don't seem to care though, so you're stuck with either changing the scaling yourself or dealing with them as they are.

 

TBH, I've never had any problems with any of my Win32 software and scaling. Maybe that's because of the tiny screen but when I have used 150% scaling on my Thinkpad 8, everything - 3DS Max, Adobe CS6, Xara Designer Pro - has looked fine. I think it is probasbly only really an issue on big monitors, where you tend not to use it anyway.

[Motor_Mouth]

Well, good luck with your adventures.

 

I'll go back to my properly working scaling and tablet mode in Windows 10.

 

Scaling works fine, it just doesn't solve anything. If it works for you, then clearly you don't use yoru tablet for much but I use mine for all the same things I use a workstation for at work, as well as all the things most othe rpeople would use a tablet for. Windows 8 supports that, Windows 10 simply doesn't.

[Mockingbird]

For better or worse, most people hate to re-learn.

 

Microsoft chose to make Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 radically different from iOS and Android.

 

With Windows 10, Microsoft chose to make it more closely resembles iOS and Android.

 

Those who are more familiar with Android and/or iOS would be comfortable with Windows 10, but those who are more familiar with Windows 8.1 would be unlikely to feel the same way.

[adrynalyne]

Scaling works fine, it just doesn't solve anything. If it works for you, then clearly you don't use yoru tablet for much but I use mine for all the same things I use a workstation for at work, as well as all the things most othe rpeople would use a tablet for. Windows 8 supports that, Windows 10 simply doesn't.

 

My workstation is a development machine. No tablet could do those things.

 

I do use it for metro apps, however. 

[jakem1]

For better or worse, most people hate to re-learn.

 

Microsoft chose to make Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 radically different from iOS and Android.

 

With Windows 10, Microsoft chose to make it more closely resembles iOS and Android.

 

Those who are more familiar with Android and/or iOS would be comfortable with Windows 10, but those who are more familiar with Windows 8.1 would be unlikely to feel the same way.

 

I'm not sure why you'd say that. I think it's generally an improvement on 8.1.