SpaceX Interplanetary Transport System (updates)

[DocM]

SpaceX BFS Mars EDL* simulation by Hazegrayart. Very clearly shows the belly-first entry and "skydive" approach.

 

* entry, descent and landing

 

 

 

'A Space Odyssey,' staring ISS, BFS, Shuttle, Venture Star and other spaceships, also by Hazegrayart.

 

 

 

[DocM]

Whatever could SpaceX and air traffic controllers be talking about behind the scenes?

 

 

 

 

[BetaguyGZT]

Ooooohh ... Suborbital Passenger Flights to all locations with an airport?!

 

Sign me the heck up!

[Skiver Veteran]

Surely that can't be any and all airports? 

 

I doubt SpaceX would get permission to land a rocket in a densely populated area like New York for example?

 

Although I think ATC would take some sort of role no matter whether the landing pad was at an existing airport or a new structure. 

[DocM]

6 hours ago, Skiver said:

Surely that can't be any and all airports? 

 

Not BFS, but Sierra Nevada's Dream Chaser spaceplane will be landing at spaceports which are co-sited at airports. Ellington in Houston and another in Alabama, maybe more. Other horizontal landers and locales will follow. Also future horizontal launchers and their horizontal landers.

Quote

New York for example?

 

Offshore platforms for coastal cities, serviced by a fast ferry, Hyperloop or Loop.

Quote

Although I think ATC would take some sort of role no matter whether the landing pad was at an existing airport or a new structure. 

 

FAA and SpaceX have been testing ATC transponder hardware and software  on Dragon, with the goal of integrating spacecraft into the system, since at least 2015. 

[Draggendrop Veteran]

13 hours ago, Skiver said:

Surely that can't be any and all airports? 

 

I doubt SpaceX would get permission to land a rocket in a densely populated area like New York for example?

 

Although I think ATC would take some sort of role no matter whether the landing pad was at an existing airport or a new structure. 

The primary purpose of the talk, at that event was a familiarization of rocketry for AT controllers. The gist of this is co-operation.

 

Presently air space around a launch is restricted for a rather long time with respect to aviation needs...a lot of expensive detours.

 

Launch providers and ATC are now beginning to work together to reduce restricted airspace time. Need to make both entities comfortable.

 

SpaceX was explaining the launch process, types of landing with required time slots.

 

This will be implemented in the near future..need to work together to be cost effective and efficient.

 

// Doc was talking about "post" events.

[DocM]

 

[DocM]

Video at the story link...

http://www.krgv.com/story/39360667/spacex-project-making-progress-at-boca-chica-beach-site

 

Quote

SpaceX Project Making Progress at Boca Chica Beach Site

 

NEAR BROWNSVILLE – The SpaceX project is making progress on Boca Chica Beach.

Some nearby residents tell CHANNEL 5 NEWS the project isn't moving fast enough but SpaceX says it's moving at a fast[er?] rate than scheduled.

KRGV’s Daisy Martinez reached out to the company about the progress being made.

SpaceX spokesman Sean Pitt released this statement:

"SpaceX has now received the final major ground system tank needed to support initial test flights of the Big Falcon Spaceship."
>

 

[DocM]

Bit of an update by on the Air Mobility Command's interest.

 

USAF and SpaceX are still talking about military Space Lift, which may end up in the Space Force...

 

Defense News....

 

Quote

Airlift/Tanker

US Air Force explores space-based cargo operations, confirms talks with SpaceX

GRAPEVINE, Texas  The U.S. Air Force is exploring the logistics of space-based cargo operations under the purview of Air Mobility Command, even as the impact of a new Space Force on the mobility community remains to be seen.
>
As for what space cargo operations could look like, the previous head of Air Mobility Command, Gen. Carlton Everhart, espoused the possibility of moving cargo using rockets during a Defense Writers Group breakfast in August.

"Think about this. Thirty minutes, 150 metric tons [and] less than the cost of a C-5," he said at the time.
>
"We're  continuing, our [planning] community is going to continue to have discussions with the space companies, and we have agreed to just sit with them and just stay up to date with where they're going with their future plans, to just be at the table with them she said. "We won't commit any resources, but we've committed to work with them to see how quickly they progress through that."

One potential would be SpaceXs next-generation reusable BFR rocket, currently under development. During the roundtable, Miller confirmed that the Air Force had spoken to SpaceX about the idea.

"They have talked about moving cargo in space, and we've sat down with SpaceX and had that discussion. But it's really just discussion at this point," she said. "Our  connection with space is really just going to be at the table with them, to look at how much progress they're making."
>

[DocM]

Hmmmm...

 

The Hill...

 

Quote

Satellite communications CEO describes synergistic relationship with SpaceX

Satellite communications leader, Matt Desch, praised Elon Musk and his company SpaceX for making space exploration affordable, saying it helped bring wireless communications to a truly global scale.

Desch, who is the chief executive officer of Iridium Communications, said that Iridium is Space X's "largest commercial customer,"  and credits the two companies "synergistic"   relationship for helping the company launch seven groups of satellites into space, with an eighth group slated to be deployed in December.
>
Musk aims to land a rocket ship on Mars by 2022  and Desch said he hopes to be a part of the ambitious goal, saying "we'd love to be able to provide the communications system for Mars when the time comes."
>

[Draggendrop Veteran]

What a group...SpaceX, Iridium and you can bet SES will be there pronto.

 

This is what it's about...team work.

[DocM]

I'd have paid good money to be a fly on the wall at the very private SpaceX Mars development conference in Colorado. 

[BetaguyGZT]

I'm all for enthusiasm, and driving for timelines that are better than estimates; but that quip about getting to Mars in 2022 using BFR/BFS isn't realistic. The people at The Hill should certainly know better.

 

2025 departure, sure. That's more in-line with reality. 2023 departure is what I would refer to as "getting it done early". That's if nothing goes wrong during Dev or Testing.

 

2025 accounts for issues and is, imo, more realistic.

[FloatingFatMan]

20 hours ago, DocM said:

Hmmmm...

 

The Hill...

 

2022? That means he'd have to make the 2020 launch window, arriving early 2021...?  I don't believe they can have BFR ready by then...

 

I'm all for supporting Musk and SpaceX, but I wish they'd be more realistic with their timelines...  Personally, I think 2030 is optimistic...

[DocM]

1 minute ago, FloatingFatMan said:

2022? That means he'd have to make the 2020 launch window, arriving early 2021...?  I don't believe they can have BFR ready by then...

 

I'm all for supporting Musk and SpaceX, but I wish they'd be more realistic with their timelines...  Personally, I think 2030 is optimistic...

 

BFS hops leading to a single stage to orbit flight starting late next year, with booster tests in 2020. 

 

The vehicle and  pad are being built, NOW

 

If they go well the fun starts in 2022ish, if they need to make changes 2024ish, both aligning with Earth-Mars orbital alignments.

 

2022/2024 would be 2 un-crewed cargo flights, prepositioning supplies and equipment.

 

In parallel; the circumlunar crewed flight in 2024, and a Moon landing and moonbase build starting in 2025.

 

2024/2026 would be 2 more un-crewed logistics flights and 2 crewed vehicles to Mars.

[FloatingFatMan]

20 minutes ago, DocM said:

BFS hops leading to a single stage to orbit flight starting late next year, with booster tests in 2020. 

And to make this 2022 arrival date, they must launch by July 2020 at the latest.. with 7 or so months transit time.  I don't believe they have any hope of making that deadline, considering they're not even taking people to the ISS yet...  The 2022 window is, IMO, the earliest they will be able to launch BFS to Mars.

[DocM]

41 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

And to make this 2022 arrival date, they must launch by July 2020 at the latest.. 

 

2022 is the launch date, not the arrival date.

[FloatingFatMan]

4 minutes ago, DocM said:

 

2022 is the launch date, not the arrival date.

From your own link...

 

Quote

Musk aims to land a rocket ship on Mars by 2022  

As much as I'd love to see it, I just don't think it's possible in so short a space of time... To do it, BFS would have to be built NOW...

[DocM]

38 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

From your own link...

 

As much as I'd love to see it, I just don't think it's possible in so short a space of time... To do it, BFS would have to be built NOW...

BFS trips to Mars take about 80–150 days, depending on which synod is being used, so leaving and arriving in 2022 is possible.

[FloatingFatMan]

Just now, DocM said:

BFS trips to Mars take about 80–150 days, depending on which synod is being used, so leaving and arriving in 2022 is possible.

Theoretically. We'll have to wait and see whether real world performance matches the theory.

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Just jumping in and out fast...

 

I have stated my opinion that Elon's dates were very "aspirational".

 

Both initial synods to be "right shift" by 1 or 2 synods...2 cargo/ISRU landing 2025/2027 and 2 to 3 ships and "boots" landing on 2027/2029 which is still a major achievement.

 

The BFR/BFS comprises of a lot of sub-systems for human rating that need development and testing.

 

I'm outta here.....wooooosh...

 

[BetaguyGZT]

Seriously, I'm all for aspirational dates and targets for having this done, or that done, that milestone, etc.

 

But there comes a point where it's too quick. TOO aspirational.

 

If there's one thing I've learned during my Engineering coursework it's that there absolutely must be space built into the R&D for downtime. Just because Elon Musk is a friggin' android does NOT mean that the people in his employ must be also. And please read that I'm an Elon "diehard" too; but human nature is human nature and facts are facts. People MUST have personal lives away from their work or they burn out, no matter how passionate they are in the pursuit of that work. Downtime is sometimes more important than the uptime.

 

I believe that the 2025 timeframe is a good one because it has that built-in personnel downtime as well as it accounts for general development snags that can and will crop up; while still being a rapid development program from the time-of-draft to liftoff on the way to Mars (or the Moon, whichever mission is deemed "more critical").

 

It's a blend of both SpaceX's way and the "classical" NASA way without being burdensome or encountering overruns.

[Draggendrop Veteran]

Just my opinion and not meant to offend anyone....intentionally....😜

 

There are "jobs" and there are SpaceX "jobs". There are many non engineering jobs in many departments at SpaceX that could function in the realm of "normal".

 

One realm will not and that's engineering. Those that are "chosen" have been put through the rigors of selection and deemed able to handle a fast paced environment in a cutting edge department.

 

Those that have complained about the environment have a few  things in common. They have never worked in this type of environment...or...have and did not have the ability to continue.

 

When a "field dedicated individual" has an opportunity of a lifetime, you will automatically put in great effort and long hours...with a smile because it is not like a job, it's a full time exciting hobby that pushes the boundaries...It doesn't get any better than that.

 

One can do this for a long time..and when you get older and advance through the system...the memories of achievement are priceless.

 

There are other leading edge "employs" in various venues that have many similarities.

 

One makes a choice...and deals with it.

 

[DocM]

There are only X% people who can function at a high level in accelerated development environments such as SpaceX.

 

They are very similar personality types that you see in acute care medicane, as first responders, parts of the military etc.; results and quick. What differs is how they apply it.

 

Some people can't perform in such environments, while others feed off of it.

[DocM]