Router/AP Set Up And Hardware

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

The 28 is $226

The 10 is $122

 

(currently)

 

But I'll look at prices, see whats up...

[+BudMan MVC]

of the 200 or 300 there is a huge difference in the feature set.

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

Yeah, I'll look that up. Thanks Budman

[DevTech]

On 12/25/2017 at 6:37 AM, BudMan said:

Wouldn't say zero - what does it suck in juice.. While using an OLD pc is great sure.. They tend to suck a lot more juice then box designed for the function.. Your old pc sitting there idle sucking maybe what 50w... While a box designed to to function as the router might only draw 7, etc..

 

 

 

My electricity cost is close to zero. So for sure there is some Observer Bias when I imagine the pros and cons of "Old PC" vs "Dedicated Router" but realistically the choice is more complex while at the same time literally being stupidly simple for most people:

 

Router Choices:

 

1) Cheap Plastic Box With Wireless - The "stupidly simple" choice for the vast majority of people. The "stupid" part can be interpreted as "simplicity" or something else.  They  overheat. They fail in 3 months or 6 months or 1 year. They can only handle throughput in an artificial benchmark and if they could handle throughput there is no overhead for latency.

 

2) Expensive Plastic Box With Wireless Spider Legs - The popular choice for "enthusiasts" -  They handle a broader range of Wireless.  They  overheat. They fail in 3 months or 6 months or 1 year. They can only handle throughput in an artificial benchmark and if they could handle throughput there is no overhead for latency.

 

3) Expensive Metal Box No Wireless - Dedicated commercial grade router - They are expensive. Provides full control. They stay cool. They last forever They handle throughput. They have headroom for latency.

 

4) Cheap Plastic Box Disabled Wireless - Same as 1) except disabling Wireless reduces heat.

 

5) Old PC with ipfire.org or similar Linux Router Distros - They cost close to zero. They provide full control. They  can be underclocked to stay cool and last longer. They last as  long as an Old PC might last which can be as good as a commercial router and will certainly beat out the "replace your stupid spider leg plastic box every year" hassle. Most likely the best throughput characteristics of all options. Most likely the best latency characteristics of all options. Most likely the best add-on and expandability characteristics of all options such as web serving, remote access, Own Cloud, FTP, and even Minecraft Server.

 

 

[+BudMan MVC]

1)  Not sure what cheap box our buying... but I have had quite a few of those cheap boxes over the years.. None of them "failed" I replaced them with newer model, etc.  I believe my wrt54g is still on the shelf and could be fired up

 

2) Same thing - never seen them fail in 3 or 6 months... Maybe that free electric of yours has something to do with them failing??

 

You forget other options non expensive box designed to run these firewall/router distros..That are cheaper than 2, etc.. With actual AP for wireless, etc.  They can last long time, have very little power consumption.

 

Other problem with old PC is they also are normally HUGE compared to what the router needs to be..  And not always suited for higher bandwidths.. Been running into many a thread elsewhere old PC hardware used and they use PCI slot for the nic.. And then do not understand while the pretty beefy cpu can not push that gig, etc..

 

Or many an enthusiast would just build a box for 5..  Or buy old commercial firewall hardware off ebay and then run a free distro on it, etc.  Also another option is running 3rd party firmware on some of the cheap plastic. That actual be useful, etc.  While your cheap electric makes the power a PC uses a non issue... There are many people in the world where that is not an issue..  If you have free electric - you should prob be mining coin on that old PC vs using it as your router heheheh

 

Where I think there is great use for those older desktops with more umph would be run that router distro as VM.. And run a few other vms on it as well to make use of it.. You take that old I5 PC to be your router while sure it will rock.. Its a bit of overkill to just be your router.. 

 

I am HUGE fan of those distro's I ran ipcop back in the day, and moved over to pfsense 10 years ago been running it ever since on quite a bit of different hardware over the years..  I have finally graduated to some dedicated hardware that price point would be more in the commercial line sure with the pfsense sg-4860.. But the cost fit into my budget... And to be honest wanted it tired of doing it half ass, and well I do this sort of thing for a living and my hobby so the $ not all that crazy for it.  And really not that much more than some of the boxes you mention in 2, etc..  They do have a $149 option that would handle most homes for router..   And only uses 2.5 watts..  And for a bit more there is the sg-3100 which while a bit more than the DIY boxes people are building does have some advantages over those sorts of builds, etc.

 

What I would of loved to do was get a new pc and leverage my old PC as new Esxi host and run my router there.. But its a beast for size, and to be honest it still does all I need for my PC needs, etc.  Would of loved to get a new esxi host box but that budget would of been double what the sg4860 cost, etc.  And while the old hardware use for my esxi box can not handle the high speed internet it for sure can run my other vms and be my NAS and still serve up plex without any issues, etc.

[+Fahim S. MVC]

Here too... never had any boxes fail on me.  Decided to buy a better one, because the current one just wasn't good enough - speed, ports, range etc.

 

That said, I am a big fan of separating 'routing' and 'wireless' functions.  The wireless bit is always the flaky bit, and needs restarting.  The 'routing' part is usually solid even in the cheapest models unless you change any of the settings.

 

Before I changed to a two (well technically 3, if you include the smart switch) box set up, I was restarting on almost a weekly basis.  Now I restart my 'wireless' box very occasionally and my 'routing' box only when it needs a os/firmware upgrade.

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

OK, now that I know a little more, I can elaborate more.

 

There should be drops in all bedrooms, as well as the Kitchen/DiningRoom and the Living Room.

 

My Mom's and Dad's computers will be in the guest bedroom. There's only 1 drop in there. So they would need an inexpensive, simple, dumb switch.

 

So, in the living room, where my Mom spends most of her time, we will need an Wireless AP for her iPad. And my Dad's phone, and tablet, if he wants to use it. If my niece comes over and bring her little tablet, too.

 

I do not THINK I will need a switch. If I ever do, I think it would be easy to add.

 

SO, heres what I need:

 

1. Inexpensive, dumb switch. My Mon or Dad doesn't do anything special.

2. Cheap wireless AP. I mean, I don't think we need $100+ ones...

3. I may add a switch later, I have a pretty good idea from BudMan.

 

Suggestions, folks?

 

I will know a HELL lot more once I talk with the builders tomorrow. This what I know so far.

[Circaflex]

If you want to do this correctly, spend the money up front on a good AP. No need to go cheap and regret it down the road. I'd suggest the UAP-AC-Pro, which is only ~$131 on Amazon. They might even have new tech coming soon, I believe Budman is a beta hardware tester for them, I don't have access to that webpage so I dont know what is coming down the pipeline.

 

For a dumb switch, just find a gig switch that has enough ports for you, here is one for $20 bucks but there are plenty of other options on Amazon for an unmanaged switch https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Ethernet-Internet-Splitter-Unmanaged/dp/B00KFD0SEA/ref=sr_1_5?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1515703149&sr=1-5&keywords=gigabit+switch

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

4 minutes ago, Circaflex said:

If you want to do this correctly, spend the money up front on a good AP. No need to go cheap and regret it down the road. I'd suggest the UAP-AC-Pro, which is only ~$131 on Amazon. They might even have new tech coming soon, I believe Budman is a beta hardware tester for them, I don't have access to that webpage so I dont know what is coming down the pipeline.

 

For a dumb switch, just find a gig switch that has enough ports for you, here is one for $20 bucks but there are plenty of other options on Amazon for an unmanaged switch https://www.amazon.com/NETGEAR-Ethernet-Internet-Splitter-Unmanaged/dp/B00KFD0SEA/ref=sr_1_5?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1515703149&sr=1-5&keywords=gigabit+switch

Thanks. Right now, I am unsure. As, we have to wait until June when our house gets done, anyway

[+BudMan MVC]

Dude why not do something like the inwall AP if your going to have wire to every room?

 

https://inwall.ubnt.com/

 

This gives you wired port and wifi in each room, and even poe+data so if you need 2 wired ports you have them, could even add a poe phone or camera off teh connection.

[+BudMan MVC]

26 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

I do not THINK I will need a switch

You will always want/need a switch!!! And it should be smart... Your not going to run 1 flat network are you?  With all things wifi/wired on the same network?

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

59 minutes ago, BudMan said:

You will always want/need a switch!!! And it should be smart... Your not going to run 1 flat network are you?  With all things wifi/wired on the same network?

I'm not a Network technician like you. I have very little network experience. All I know is the brim of networking. I'm getting better at Linux, but that is a whole different spectrum.

 

TBH, I have been running 1 flat network all my life. So I am blind to all that is out there...

[sc302 Veteran]

2 hours ago, BudMan said:

You will always want/need a switch!!! And it should be smart... Your not going to run 1 flat network are you?  With all things wifi/wired on the same network?

WEll yeah run one flat network...most people have a handful of devices and a handful of trusted friends/family they allow on their networks. 

 

Yes it is better to have them segregated, but for a home network it isn't exactly a need more of a want.  We know what those rogue IoT devices are capable of, but to the majority out there they are incapable of comprehension.

 

Basically, you can secure/segregate your devices and allow initial communication to only go one way so that the devices can't talk to other devices unless called upon. 

 

As an example: Printers can only talk out to the internet but they can accept communications from your computer and you phone yet they can't initiate a conversation between your phone and computer.    So if someone were to hack your printer, they aren't going anywhere other than to other printers or out to the internet.

 

 

[DaveLegg Developer]

9 hours ago, sc302 said:

As an example: Printers can only talk out to the internet but they can accept communications from your computer and you phone yet they can't initiate a conversation between your phone and computer.    So if someone were to hack your printer, they aren't going anywhere other than to other printers or out to the internet.

 

 

I'd argue a printer doesn't even need internet access, no need to risk a hacked printer joining a botnet.

[thechronic]

My advice is that while the house is being built have Ethernet cables ran through floors, wall cavities and ceilings, running back to a Patch Panel (or more than one) in the garage or basement with your Router and everything else. Have some of the ethernet sockets down at floor level for Computers, media centres etc and a couple at ceiling height for access points.

Have extra sockets ran in where you may need access points, printers, new devices etc

Recommendation for Access Points - Draytek

This would be the professional means of doing things. This is how we did it at work. 

It's much easier to terminate cables than you may realise. You can purchase a Krone tool for next to nothing!

 

 

[sc302 Veteran]

3 hours ago, DaveLegg said:

I'd argue a printer doesn't even need internet access, no need to risk a hacked printer joining a botnet.

Somewhat true.  Some people sign up for services that order supplies/ink automatically when running low. Others like web print capabilities (email this address and it will print directly on my printer from wherever you or I am). It isn’t for everyone but some people do untilize those features. 

 

HP has both of those capabilities without opening your firewall up, the printer communicates out. 

[+BudMan MVC]

Some people might argue that my thermostat doesn't need internet access too..

 

The age of IoT is here.. the age of lets just put everyone on 1 flat network is on the way out..  There are 2 many devices that use internet these days and could be compromised because many of these companies take shortcuts and just plain suck at security... Doesn't mean you can not leverage the devices - you should just take a bit more care and not just give it access to everything else on your network..

 

And you should look to monitoring what is doing - this way if it did happen to join a botnet, you would know it

 

Anyone that wants to wire their whole house, and actually knows that there is a difference between 5e and 6 and 6a, etc.. seems like someone primed to graduate past the oh that box looks shiny and has lots of antenna's - plug it in... Oh cool my xbox can get on the internet now sort of people

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

Well, we won't have a lot of neighbors near our new house. It's in a new subdivision. And no one hacks me, as long as I have a strong WPA2 password to my wireless.

 

I don't need several devices on different levels. Everything has worked fine here with a simple router.

 

It's not a business here. We don't have people trying to get into our networks and steal our documents.

[farmeunit]

7 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Well, we won't have a lot of neighbors near our new house. It's in a new subdivision. And no one hacks me, as long as I have a strong WPA2 password to my wireless.

 

I don't need several devices on different levels. Everything has worked fine here with a simple router.

 

It's not a business here. We don't have people trying to get into our networks and steal our documents.

The issues is that they hack indiscriminately.  They just scan for exploitable devices.  They don't care whether you have documents they want, necessarily.  It's largely an automated process.  That's how botnets are created.  They find a vulnerability in one and use that to access thousands.   Once they're on your network with one device, they'll use that to access others.

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

13 minutes ago, farmeunit said:

The issues is that they hack indiscriminately.  They just scan for exploitable devices.  They don't care whether you have documents they want, necessarily.  It's largely an automated process.  That's how botnets are created.  They find a vulnerability in one and use that to access thousands.   Once they're on your network with one device, they'll use that to access others.

Tell me, since we got our first internet router, gotta be 10-12 years ago, why has no one hit us yet?

[farmeunit]

3 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Tell me, since we got our first internet router, gotta be 10-12 years ago, why has no one hit us yet?

https://www.wired.com/story/reaper-iot-botnet-infected-million-networks/

 

It's just a matter of time with devices becoming more common and prevalent in society.  And how do you honestly know that you haven't?  If you don't want to worry about, no one can make you.  So just put your head in the sand....  I was just point out a reason and why.

[Circaflex]

13 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

Tell me, since we got our first internet router, gotta be 10-12 years ago, why has no one hit us yet?

What a silly way to look at this situation. For someone with the tech know-how that you tout to have, i honestly cant believe thats how you’re looking at this. 

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

3 hours ago, Circaflex said:

What a silly way to look at this situation. For someone with the tech know-how that you tout to have, i honestly cant believe thats how you’re looking at this. 

I'm not a network major. I only know about hardware. And little about software. This doesn't have anything to do with Internet security.

 

That's the world I see it from. You guys with the big smart switches, pfsense routers, etc., etc. I know none of this.

[adrynalyne]

30 minutes ago, Mindovermaster said:

I'm not a network major. I only know about hardware. And little about software. This doesn't have anything to do with Internet security.

 

That's the world I see it from. You guys with the big smart switches, pfsense routers, etc., etc. I know none of this.

So learn?

[The Evil Overlord]

1 minute ago, adrynalyne said:

So learn?

Isn't that kinda what he's doing right now??