adrynalyne Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:26, Mockingbird said: Which processor? On Intel processors, Kernel VA shadowing is disabled if incompatible Anti-Virus is detected. On AMD processors, Kernel VA shadowing is disabled. Expand Ryzen 1700. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:26, adrynalyne said: Ryzen 1700. Expand As you can see, Kernel VA shadowing is off. Everything is working as intended. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153742 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrynalyne Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:28, Mockingbird said: As you can see, Kernel VA shadowing is off. Everything is working as intended. Expand Go read what I said again. You even quoted it. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:29, adrynalyne said: Go read what I said again. You even quoted it. Expand I don't even know what you are talking about. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrynalyne Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) On 07/01/2018 at 17:31, Mockingbird said: I don't even know what you are talking about. Expand Clearly. Otherwise you wouldn't have argued with me about the AMD user claiming performance loss when there was none, and would have also corrected yourself after seeing @Yogurth's link included post microcode update, which tends to clash with your posted post-microcode update screenshot,. Of which it seems to be a rather odd one-off, like the AMD user. Hence I posted what I did. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:33, adrynalyne said: Clearly. Otherwise you wouldn't have argued with me about the AMD user claiming performance loss when there was none, and would have also corrected yourself after seeing @Yogurth's link included post microcode update, which tends to clash with your posted post-microcode update screenshot,. Of which it seems to be a rather odd one-off, like the AMD user. Hence I posted what I did. Expand I don't thing there were many AMD users claiming performance because I have said, Kernel VA shadowing is disabled. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrynalyne Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:37, Mockingbird said: I don't thing there were many AMD users claiming performance because I have said, Kernel VA shadowing is disabled. Expand Just like there aren't many showing a 21% performance hit after microcode update. I'm glad we are now on the same page. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:38, adrynalyne said: Just like there aren't many showing a 21% performance hit after microcode update. I'm glad we are now on the same page. Expand There hasn't been any microcode update from AMD (for these issues). Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrynalyne Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:39, Mockingbird said: There hasn't been any microcode update from AMD (for these issues). Expand I didn't say there was. Go back and look at what I typed. The AMD user was an example of a one-off, and most likely incorrect conclusion. Your microcode update results are likely the same, which is why we need more microcode testing results. Which @Yogurth supplied and confirmed my suspicions. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) On 07/01/2018 at 17:41, adrynalyne said: I didn't say there was. Go back and look at what I typed. The AMD user was an example of a one-off, and most likely incorrect conclusion. Your microcode update results are likely the same, which is why we need more microcode testing results. Which @Yogurth supplied and confirmed my suspicions. Expand The "AMD user"? Which "AMD user"? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrynalyne Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) On 07/01/2018 at 17:42, Mockingbird said: The "AMD user"? What "AMD user"? Expand Really? I linked the reddit url in this thread if you want to go look. Specifically, this is what I said: On 07/01/2018 at 16:33, adrynalyne said: There hasn’t been enough testing with the microcode update to verify it. There is also a screenshot out there showing a massive performance hit after the meltdown patch on an AMD cpu. Just one that I saw. Expand One-offs never tell the whole story. Edit: I posted it to a similar but different thread that spawned this one. Let me go find it. Edited January 7, 2018 by adrynalyne Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:44, adrynalyne said: Really? I linked the reddit url in this thread if you want to go look. Specifically, this is what I said: One-offs never tell the whole story. Expand Why would someone with an Intel Core i7-8700K be called the "AMD user"? Facepalm. I think you mean the "Intel user". Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrynalyne Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:51, Mockingbird said: Why would someone with an Intel Core i7-8700K be called the "AMD user"? Facepalm. I think you mean the "Intel user". Expand No, you just don't understand what you are reading. @Yogurthposted this. Of which contains, this: Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 17:53, adrynalyne said: No, you just don't understand what you are reading. @Yogurthposted this. Of which contains, this: Expand "I found one on Russian forum. Can be fake" There you have it. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrynalyne Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) On 07/01/2018 at 17:59, Mockingbird said: "I found one on Russian forum. Can be fake" There you have it. Expand OMG, stop being so obtuse. "Can be fake" --yeah, so can yours. Thats why...wait for it...wait for it...we need more microcode testing. Your argument for performance loss increase from microcode update after the OS patch is based upon a single microcode update-enabled test you posted. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153776 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mockingbird Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 18:01, adrynalyne said: OMG, stop being so obtuse. "Can be fake" --yeah, so can yours. Thats why...wait for it...wait for it...we need more microcode testing. Your argument for performance loss increase from the OS patch is based upon a single microcode update-enabled test you posted. Expand Someone with a Core i7-8700K and a ASUS PRIME Z370-A can easily run update his//her BIOS and run Realbench 2.56. What you have posted has no context. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrynalyne Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 18:04, Mockingbird said: Someone with a Core i7-8700K and a ASUS PRIME Z370-A can easily run update his//her BIOS and run Realbench 2.56. What you have posted has no context. Expand I'm done here because you are clearly trolling now. I gave plenty of context for those who choose to see it. I'll try one last time and you can decide to be obtuse, or not. I don't care. You posted a huge performance hit after microcode update. Just one. I believe it showed in the upwards of 21% performance loss? Its not conclusive until the results can be verified and reproduced. That is just good investigation. We've not seen enough evidence in bulk to verify how much a hit the microcode updates will actually have on performance. @Yogurth posted results, upon which you said were without the microcode update. These conflicted with your 21% loss. I explained, we need more microcode testing to verify the results of the performance hit (implying to what you posted). I gave an example of why more verification is needed because there was even an AMD user who claimed performance loss from the meltdown patch. No verification means its not really useful. Could it be fake? Yeah, it could. Could yours? Yeah they could. That iss why we need more testing. @Yogurth later explained it was indeed was with microcode updates, also invalidating your claim, not by any fault of yours, but through the power of verification and further testing. Then you invented this idiotic argument, of which I am done with. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogurth Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 I forgot to mention, there is an important bit of information in Techspot article for those who only checked results. Nvidia GPUs are most likely susceptible to meltdown attack and they are planning to issue a statement over this soon. Mando 1 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrynalyne Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 18:12, Yogurth said: I forgot to mention, there is an important bit of information in Techspot article for those who only checked results. Nvidia GPUs are most likely susceptible to meltdown attack and they are planning to issue a statement over this soon. Expand Interesting. Nvidia GPUs aren't x86 or ARM, are they? Honest question, I don't know. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogurth Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 18:13, adrynalyne said: Interesting. Nvidia GPUs aren't x86 or ARM, are they? Honest question, I don't know. Expand No idea either, but here is the quote from the article, if it helps... "On the GPU front, Nvidia is reportedly also affected, so there will be loads of additional tests to be done when "time comes. Our interpretation from Nvidia's blog is that they rely on CPU-like aggressive branch prediction on their GPU architectures. It's part of their performance gains over consecutive generations. The flaw appears to be the same as Intel CPUs, in that speculative operations occur without security checks first, as a secure design should be done." adrynalyne 1 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReAnimation Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 (edited) So, I'm not sure if this has been covered (apologies if it has), but the Windows 10 Kernel patch is only half the story. We all need to apply BIOS updates to the various intel boards that we are using. If you are worried about the performance hit on your intel PC, you need to re-test with the Windows 10 patch along side your motherboard manufacturers BIOS update that has the Intel CPU microcode update. For those using Asus boards, they have annouced if your board has one of the following chipsets X299, Z370, Z270, Z170, B150, B250, H270, H170, H110, Q170, Q270 and finally X99 there should be an incoming BIOS update that contains the Microcode update (if its not already live). Please see the following link for a full table of Motherboards, and the BIOS version containing the Microcode update: https://www.asus.com/News/V5urzYAT6myCC1o2 Hardware unboxed has done a benchmark video of a Z370 board with and without the latest Bios - all in all only a very small performance difference noticed in general. NVMe SSD performance does seem to be hit however:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbhKUjPRk5Q Hope this helps. Mando 1 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimeMaster Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 18:12, Yogurth said: I forgot to mention, there is an important bit of information in Techspot article for those who only checked results. Nvidia GPUs are most likely susceptible to meltdown attack and they are planning to issue a statement over this soon. Expand Are you sure?: Quote NVIDIA’s core business is GPU computing. We believe our GPU hardware is immune to the reported security issue and are updating our GPU drivers to help mitigate the CPU security issue. As for our SoCs with ARM CPUs, we have analyzed them to determine which are affected and are preparing appropriate mitigations. Expand https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1033210/nvidias-response-to-speculative-side-channels-cve-2017-5753-cve-2017-5715-and-cve-2017-5754/ Yogurth and adrynalyne 2 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogurth Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 18:19, LimeMaster said: Are you sure?: https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/1033210/nvidias-response-to-speculative-side-channels-cve-2017-5753-cve-2017-5715-and-cve-2017-5754/ Expand Like I said I do not know, I hope Techspot info is wrong, though Nvidia statement is already a few days older than the Techspot findings. Anything goes I guess. LimeMaster 1 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LimeMaster Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 18:24, Yogurth said: Like I said I do not know, I hope Techspot info is wrong, though Nvidia statement is already a few days older than the Techspot findings. Anything goes I guess. Expand I'm just worried we'll see more performance drops if it turns out their GPUs are affected. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogurth Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 07/01/2018 at 18:27, LimeMaster said: I'm just worried we'll see more performance drops if it turns out their GPUs are affected. Expand Yeah, both of my systems are Intel+Nvidia. LimeMaster 1 Share Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1352412-microsoft-kernel-patch-cpu-before-and-after-benchmarks-thread/page/4/#findComment-598153804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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