Star Wars - Death of a Franchise - Part II Post Solo

[seta-san]

Luke - Ruined in Last Jedi - emo, mopey, out of character behavior and inglorious death.

Han - Went from a "Take no crap from anyone, least of all a woman or a droid scoundrel" to literally bitched slapped by every woman and droid in Solo.

Leia - Ruined in Last Jedi - Carrie Poppins

Yoda - Ruined in attack of the clones, breaks his epicness by getting into a pointless lightsaber fight for the fan boys when his force powers should be much more.

Lando - Now a pansexual who's trying to get into relationships with a droid. Makes you think he was having fun with Lobot(the bald cyborg in ESB)

Darth/Anakin - Ruined in prequels - annoying kid then an emo teen - the conversation about Sand - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The force - Ruined in Phantom Menace - midichlorians

Light sabers - Ruined in prequels - made boring

The Falcon - Now has the soul of a bitchy, droid liberation activist(feminist) droid that Lando was trying to get in on.

 

What else can Kathleen Kennedy and Lucasfilm do to ruin the franchise? What can actually be salvaged?

Obi Wan?

Boba Fett? 

Darth Maul?

Chewbacca?

R2D2/C3PO?

[+virtorio MVC]

Star Wars is three good movies, surrounded by an ever expanding bunch of drivel.

[Zathras5]

Apart from him

Spoiler

dropping dead  for no apparent reason,

I liked what they did with Luke in Last Jedi. I don't understand peoples beef with him in that movie.

 

I agree that the prequels ruined Vader, but I felt that one scene in Rogue One redeemed him to a degree. Also I thought Rogue One was on par with the original trilogy.

 

While I enjoyed eps 7 & 8, I admit they weren't as good as 4 - 6... but heads and tails better then 1 -  3.

 

I didn't see Solo yet but plan to. This franchise is far from dead for me, I'm enjoying the flicks and am still looking forward to what comes next.

[sc302 Veteran]

Solo was OK....it was a story told in the star wars universe prior to Han Solo being the Mercenary/Hired Gun that he was in A New Hope.  How he gets betrayed and why he has a '''takes nothing from no one" attitude I am sure will be revealed in Solo II, if they decide to move forward with it.  My guess is rather simple, the woman he has always loved betrays him in some why that he say screw everyone and only looks out for himself and why the only one he trusts is Chewie.  It is a simplistic prognosis based on what we know about him past and future...in the distant future (episodes 7/8) he dropped his guard due to falling in love and having a child.  

 

People change and what was once the standard is no more.  

[theyarecomingforyou]

On 5/28/2018 at 2:16 AM, seta-san said:

Luke - Ruined in Last Jedi - emo, mopey, out of character behavior and inglorious death.

He followed a similar trajectory to Obi Wan, so that was in keeping with Star Wars lore.

On 5/28/2018 at 2:16 AM, seta-san said:

Leia - Ruined in Last Jedi - Carrie Poppins

I don't have a problem them expanding the force mythology. Her character was by no means ruined - in fact she was shown to be a calculating leader, rather than the sex symbol she was in the original trilogy.

On 5/28/2018 at 2:16 AM, seta-san said:

Yoda - Ruined in attack of the clones, breaks his epicness by getting into a pointless lightsaber fight for the fan boys when his force powers should be much more.

Yes, but it's well accepted that the prequels were bad.

On 5/28/2018 at 2:16 AM, seta-san said:

Lando - Now a pansexual who's trying to get into relationships with a droid. Makes you think he was having fun with Lobot(the bald cyborg in ESB)

Sounds like the issue is with you, as Lando was always a flamboyant character.

On 5/28/2018 at 2:16 AM, seta-san said:

Darth/Anakin - Ruined in prequels - annoying kid then an emo teen - the conversation about Sand - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The force - Ruined in Phantom Menace - midichlorians

Light sabers - Ruined in prequels - made boring

We know the prequels were bad.

On 5/28/2018 at 2:16 AM, seta-san said:

The Falcon - Now has the soul of a bitchy, droid liberation activist(feminist) droid that Lando was trying to get in on.

Again that sounds like an issue with you. Maybe you should reflect on why you feel threatened by feminism.

 

What's also not being looked at is that The Force Awakens, whilst derivative, was a great film and The Last Jedi had great moments. Rogue One was excellent and helped restore Vader as a menacing character. So really what you're saying is that The Last Jedi and Solo weren't quite what you were expecting. That's hardly the 'death of a franchise'. Rogue One ranks as possibly one of my favourite films in the franchise. One also has to consider that Return of the Jedi was extremely childish and silly at times, what with the Ewoks - it hasn't held up particularly well.

 

Star Trek has had worse movies and it's still a thriving franchise. Your criticism comes across as rather melodramatic.

[CrossCheck]

On 5/27/2018 at 7:16 PM, seta-san said:

Luke - Ruined in Last Jedi - emo, mopey, out of character behavior and inglorious death.

Han - Went from a "Take no crap from anyone, least of all a woman or a droid scoundrel" to literally bitched slapped by every woman and droid in Solo.

Leia - Ruined in Last Jedi - Carrie Poppins

Yoda - Ruined in attack of the clones, breaks his epicness by getting into a pointless lightsaber fight for the fan boys when his force powers should be much more.

Lando - Now a pansexual who's trying to get into relationships with a droid. Makes you think he was having fun with Lobot(the bald cyborg in ESB)

Darth/Anakin - Ruined in prequels - annoying kid then an emo teen - the conversation about Sand - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The force - Ruined in Phantom Menace - midichlorians

Light sabers - Ruined in prequels - made boring

The Falcon - Now has the soul of a bitchy, droid liberation activist(feminist) droid that Lando was trying to get in on.

 

What else can Kathleen Kennedy and Lucasfilm do to ruin the franchise? What can actually be salvaged?

Obi Wan?

Boba Fett? 

Darth Maul?

Chewbacca?

R2D2/C3PO?

I think someone is taking a fictional movie a little too serious.

[Buttus]

Solo was an ok movie, but it was made it be more of a setup to part 2 or even 3 of the solo story.   there's still a lot hinted at in the 4-6 star wars that they need to explore.

[kjordan2001]

Uh, hate to ruin this for you, but Luke has always been emo and mopey...

[PsYcHoKiLLa]

I want them to do a film about the "Birth of the Jedi", with the tree, the books, the whole nine yards. Always been my favourite bit of the stories. There's plenty of canon material.

[sc302 Veteran]

18 minutes ago, kjordan2001 said:

Uh, hate to ruin this for you, but Luke has always been emo and mopey...

seagulls

[Nick H. Supervisor]

1 hour ago, PsYcHoKiLLa said:

I want them to do a film about the "Birth of the Jedi", with the tree, the books, the whole nine yards. Always been my favourite bit of the stories. There's plenty of canon material.

Oof, now I have some bad news for you my friend...Disney killed off the EU. A pity, I agree, But the fact is that the universe is not what we thought it was anymore. And that's a part of the reason that most of us have an issue.

 

I admit I haven't seen Solo yet. But TLJ has left a sour taste in my mouth. Rogue One was cool, and The Force Awakens was alright - albeit a repeat of A New Hope - but I can see Disney riding the universe into the ground.

[George P Global Moderator]

The only issue with Star Wars as this point, after Disney bought it, is that they're making too many movies too fast.  You could hold back a little and not give us SW fatigue already.    Could have just done the new trilogy first, and then started into some of the side stories, but nope.  They'd be more than happy to do 2 or even 3 SW movies a year as long as they kept making money.

 

We'll see how it goes, but I have another issue to bring up, the SW fandom has become toxic, specially online.    Attacking actors and actresses on social media is crazy.

[seta-san]

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 12:25 PM, theyarecomingforyou said:

He followed a similar trajectory to Obi Wan, so that was in keeping with Star Wars lore. 

I don't have a problem them expanding the force mythology. Her character was by no means ruined - in fact she was shown to be a calculating leader, rather than the sex symbol she was in the original trilogy.

Yes, but it's well accepted that the prequels were bad.

Sounds like the issue is with you, as Lando was always a flamboyant character. 

We know the prequels were bad.

Again that sounds like an issue with you. Maybe you should reflect on why you feel threatened by feminism. 

 

What's also not being looked at is that The Force Awakens, whilst derivative, was a great film and The Last Jedi had great moments. Rogue One was excellent and helped restore Vader as a menacing character. So really what you're saying is that The Last Jedi and Solo weren't quite what you were expecting. That's hardly the 'death of a franchise'. Rogue One ranks as possibly one of my favourite films in the franchise. One also has to consider that Return of the Jedi was extremely childish and silly at times, what with the Ewoks - it hasn't held up particularly well.

 

Star Trek has had worse movies and it's still a thriving franchise. Your criticism comes across as rather melodramatic.

1. no he didn't.obiwan was only pretending to be a hermit when he was really watching over luke. He never lost hope. Luke is actually a hermit and a broken man.

2. it's not so much that she did it... it's the way they showed her do it and with zero explanation. it seemed like her person deus ex machina. she was always a bad ass to me. 

3. glad we can agree.

4. he was a bit flamboyant.. but now we have to consider that he might have had a sexual relationship with this.

5. agreed.

6. modern feminism is toxic. it ruins everything it touches. I can not think of one single part of pop culture it was made better in the last 50 years. ask ghostbusters, or mightynumber 9, or SJW marvel comics

[seta-san]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/liberal-identity-politics-has-ruined-star-wars-fanboys/

Quote

But the truth is that identity politics is the kryptonite that saps the joy out of all it touches.

 

Edited June 8, 2018 by seta-san

[FloatingFatMan]

12 hours ago, George P said:

The only issue with Star Wars as this point, after Disney bought it, is that they're making too many movies too fast.  You could hold back a little and not give us SW fatigue already.    Could have just done the new trilogy first, and then started into some of the side stories, but nope.  They'd be more than happy to do 2 or even 3 SW movies a year as long as they kept making money.

 

We'll see how it goes, but I have another issue to bring up, the SW fandom has become toxic, specially online.    Attacking actors and actresses on social media is crazy.

I never thought I'd say this after the prequels but, after seeing what Disney have done with Star Wars... I want George back...

[PsYcHoKiLLa]

On 6/7/2018 at 1:14 AM, Nick H. said:

Oof, now I have some bad news for you my friend...Disney killed off the EU. A pity, I agree, But the fact is that the universe is not what we thought it was anymore. And that's a part of the reason that most of us have an issue.

 

I admit I haven't seen Solo yet. But TLJ has left a sour taste in my mouth. Rogue One was cool, and The Force Awakens was alright - albeit a repeat of A New Hope - but I can see Disney riding the universe into the ground.

...as we all suspected they would although they tried to deny it, it's just a money making behemoth now. Although, the tree and the books were in the last film so are you totally sure they've killed off ALL the backstories?

[theyarecomingforyou]

6 hours ago, seta-san said:

6. modern feminism is toxic. it ruins everything it touches. I can not think of one single part of pop culture it was made better in the last 50 years. ask ghostbusters, or mightynumber 9, or SJW marvel comics

You do realise Ghostbusters (2016) has nothing to do with feminism, right? It just flipped the gender paradigm. I mean that's like claiming Ghostbusters (1984) was just about furthering men's rights. The issue with Ghostbusters (2016) is that it was a mediocre film that didn't match the quality of the originals. And by objectifying Chris Hemsworth for laughs it actually was counterproductive to feminism's aims of gender equality.

 

As for Marvel, the vast majority of its characters are heterosexual males. It's hardly a bastion of gender or racial equality. There have been 19 movies and every one of them has had a heterosexual male as the lead, with only one of them featuring a non-white lead. If you can't tolerate characters that aren't white, male and heterosexual then you're not courageously opposing the onslaught of SJW propaganda - you're just intolerant of the diverse society we live in.

 

The issue with Star Wars at the moment is that films are being rushed out to capitalise on existing characters. Nobody needed a backstory to Han Solo because we got that in A New Hope - that was the perfect introduction to his character. We certainly don't need a Boba Fett film either, nor an Obi Wan film. Rogue One was successful because it focused on narrative over characters, though where it did turn to Tarkin and Vader it only increased their menace. Force Awakens worked because it was a compelling film, if a little unoriginal.

 

The Last Jedi fell down because the plot made absolutely no sense. Outrunning Imperial Ships makes no sense when a Star Destroyer could just jump ahead of them; lightspeeding through a Mega Star Destroyer means the Resistance would only need a handful of suicide pilots to take down every First Order capital ship; Canto Bight's animal rights plot lacked any nuance and was massively out of place; everything relied on Holdo not communicating her plan and Poe committing treason; Phasma returned for no reason; lasers arcing in space, etc.

 

Lucasfilm needs to focus on compelling stories instead of trying to turn Star Wars into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Star Wars isn't about individual characters but about large scale conflicts - Rogue One understood that; Solo didn't.

[seta-san]

2 hours ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

You do realise Ghostbusters (2016) has nothing to do with feminism, right? It just flipped the gender paradigm. I mean that's like claiming Ghostbusters (1984) was just about furthering men's rights. The issue with Ghostbusters (2016) is that it was a mediocre film that didn't match the quality of the originals. And by objectifying Chris Hemsworth for laughs it actually was counterproductive to feminism's aims of gender equality.

 

As for Marvel, the vast majority of its characters are heterosexual males. It's hardly a bastion of gender or racial equality. There have been 19 movies and every one of them has had a heterosexual male as the lead, with only one of them featuring a non-white lead. If you can't tolerate characters that aren't white, male and heterosexual then you're not courageously opposing the onslaught of SJW propaganda - you're just intolerant of the diverse society we live in.

 

The issue with Star Wars at the moment is that films are being rushed out to capitalise on existing characters. Nobody needed a backstory to Han Solo because we got that in A New Hope - that was the perfect introduction to his character. We certainly don't need a Boba Fett film either, nor an Obi Wan film. Rogue One was successful because it focused on narrative over characters, though where it did turn to Tarkin and Vader it only increased their menace. Force Awakens worked because it was a compelling film, if a little unoriginal. 

 

The Last Jedi fell down because the plot made absolutely no sense. Outrunning Imperial Ships makes no sense when a Star Destroyer could just jump ahead of them; lightspeeding through a Mega Star Destroyer means the Resistance would only need a handful of suicide pilots to take down every First Order capital ship; Canto Bight's animal rights plot lacked any nuance and was massively out of place; everything relied on Holdo not communicating her plan and Poe committing treason; Phasma returned for no reason; lasers arcing in space, etc.

 

Lucasfilm needs to focus on compelling stories instead of trying to turn Star Wars into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Star Wars isn't about individual characters but about large scale conflicts - Rogue One understood that; Solo didn't.

ghostbusters wasn't just a rule 63. if it were it might have been funny. the heart of ghostbusters is that they are a bunch of shlubs off the street doing pest control and accidentally save the world in the end. female ghostbusters has a bunch of the most extraordinary, neurotic empowered girls going out and battling ghosts. the male secretary in the movie was made to be a complete airhead and the movie ended in what amounts to be a punch in the dick. and of course one thing that feminist/sjw reworks of prior art they are totally disrespectful to the original characters.

 

i'm not talking amount the marvel movies. i'm talking about the comics. i'm talking about "female thor".. i'm talking about the time that ironman was suddenly a black female teen. i'm talking about "ask me about my feminist agenda" shirt.

 

the problems with the last jedi are:

total lack of respect for original characters.

non sensical plot

forcing ideas of "toxic masculinity"

and having the most mary sue character ever made. Mary Sue characters are usually made the way they are because of either wish fulfillment from the creators or because they want to prove that the girls are just as badass as the boys.

 

the problem is not starwars fatigue. it's fatigue from godawful movies that range from mediocre to cringeworthy bad.

[theyarecomingforyou]

3 hours ago, seta-san said:

ghostbusters wasn't just a rule 63. if it were it might have been funny. the heart of ghostbusters is that they are a bunch of shlubs off the street doing pest control and accidentally save the world in the end. female ghostbusters has a bunch of the most extraordinary, neurotic empowered girls going out and battling ghosts. the male secretary in the movie was made to be a complete airhead and the movie ended in what amounts to be a punch in the dick. and of course one thing that feminist/sjw reworks of prior art they are totally disrespectful to the original characters.

It's nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with the film itself being poorly executed. We've seen so many films that fail to live up to the original but that doesn't mean feminism ruined them. Was Chris Hemsworth's role in Ghostbusters (2016) bad? Absolutely, but it wasn't because of feminism. It was because his character was played for slapstick humour; it was so over-the-top that it ruined any immersion in the film. That sort of humour might be great for a Naked Gun movie but was out of keeping with the franchise.

3 hours ago, seta-san said:

i'm not talking amount the marvel movies. i'm talking about the comics. i'm talking about "female thor".. i'm talking about the time that ironman was suddenly a black female teen. i'm talking about "ask me about my feminist agenda" shirt.

Iron Man is all about the suit, so anybody can be stuck inside it. And if you're questioning whether a black female teenager can really invent such technology then how is that any different to Peter Parker doing the same in Spider-Man? As for a female Thor, given the powers are mystical it really doesn't make any difference and isn't out of place. Your issue with it is rooted in misogyny. You don't have any valid criticism - you just resent women having a prominent role in society.

 

As for a character wearing a feminist t-shirt, so what? That's one character. And since when was campaigning for gender equality a bad thing? Sure, in your warped world view feminism is an existential threat to men but outside of that far-right anti-equality bubble feminism has always been about gender equality. Marvel has also pioneered environmental causes as well.

3 hours ago, seta-san said:

the problems with the last jedi are:

total lack of respect for original characters.

non sensical plot

forcing ideas of "toxic masculinity"

and having the most mary sue character ever made. Mary Sue characters are usually made the way they are because of either wish fulfillment from the creators or because they want to prove that the girls are just as badass as the boys

It's telling that you find gender to be an issue with Star Wars. There are plenty of issues with The Last Jedi but gender isn't even on the radar. If you feel threatened by powerful women in a fictional universe then that's on you.

[seta-san]

5 hours ago, theyarecomingforyou said:

It's nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with the film itself being poorly executed. We've seen so many films that fail to live up to the original but that doesn't mean feminism ruined them. Was Chris Hemsworth's role in Ghostbusters (2016) bad? Absolutely, but it wasn't because of feminism. It was because his character was played for slapstick humour; it was so over-the-top that it ruined any immersion in the film. That sort of humour might be great for a Naked Gun movie but was out of keeping with the franchise.

Iron Man is all about the suit, so anybody can be stuck inside it. And if you're questioning whether a black female teenager can really invent such technology then how is that any different to Peter Parker doing the same in Spider-Man? As for a female Thor, given the powers are mystical it really doesn't make any difference and isn't out of place. Your issue with it is rooted in misogyny. You don't have any valid criticism - you just resent women having a prominent role in society.

 

As for a character wearing a feminist t-shirt, so what? That's one character. And since when was campaigning for gender equality a bad thing? Sure, in your warped world view feminism is an existential threat to men but outside of that far-right anti-equality bubble feminism has always been about gender equality. Marvel has also pioneered environmental causes as well.

It's telling that you find gender to be an issue with Star Wars. There are plenty of issues with The Last Jedi but gender isn't even on the radar. If you feel threatened by powerful women in a fictional universe then that's on you.

so that's the big thing. you live in the fantasy that feminism actually is looking for equality. it's fun to hide behind dictionary definitions but the real actual movement is a man-hating supremacist movement

[theyarecomingforyou]

11 hours ago, seta-san said:

so that's the big thing. you live in the fantasy that feminism actually is looking for equality. it's fun to hide behind dictionary definitions but the real actual movement is a man-hating supremacist movement

The issue you have with Star Wars is ideological and rooted in misogyny. You're perfectly entitled to that opinion but don't expect to find much support for it.

 

For me the criticism I have of Star Wars under Kathleen Kennedy is the lack of verisimilitude. We see the Empire replaced with the First Order but for all intents and purposes they're the same; we see the Emperor replaced with Snoke—and then inexplicably killed despite supposedly being immensely powerful in the Force—but there's no explanation for how he rose to power; we see Luke disappear into the Force but there was no threat to his life like with Obi Wan in A New Hope; we see Starkiller Base destroyed with ease when Rogue One explained the weakness of the original Death Star was inserted by the original designer; we see the Mega Star Destroyer destroyed by a ship going into lightspeed when that would be an easy way to take out all capital ships; we see the First Order slowly chasing the Resistance fleet when they could have jumped ahead of them.

 

For me the highlight of the modern franchise is Rogue One for taking a narrative based approach to expand the lore whilst remaining faithful to the original trilogy. It wasn't perfect but it was up there with the original trilogy for me. Right now the side films seem to just be based around famous characters rather than compelling narratives - Solo was the first, with Boba Fett and Obi Wan movies coming next supposedly. They're trying to base the franchise around individual characters like the MCU does rather than the complex stories Star Wars is famous for. It also doesn't help that the timeline is jumping all over the place, which only confuses fans. So no, feminism isn't to blame.

[seta-san]

Oh. An accusation of misogyny.. how original. Did you ever stop to consider that the problems you have with the story has it's roots in Kathleen Kennedy's obsession with putting identity politics before story and/or characters.