SpaceX Super Heavy and Starship updates

[DocM]

Height: 70 meters (229.66 feet)
Width: 9 meters (29.5 feet)
Engines;
Center cluster: 9 sea level Raptors
Outer ring: 20 RBoost Raptors (high thrust variant)
Liftoff thrust: 7,500 tonnes (16,534,670 lb-f)

 

[DocM]

 

 

[DocM]

 

[DocM]

Interesting; a look at Raptor Boost #3  (RBoost 3 or RB3), and Starship "Chomper" for orbital debris collection.

 

 

 

 

[DocM]

So much for the 29 engine arrangement; 32 or 33.

 

7,600 t-f is 17,024,000 lb-f, and a T/W of 1.5 means it'll get off the pad in a sporty fashion.

 

500 million 8s clearly a typo - 500 thousand.

 

 

[DocM]

Good lord...no wonder some of the new ship stuff looks different...

 

 

 

 

 

[DocM]

So, summarizing the Musk tweetstorm...

 

Raptor (sea level w/gimbal), RBoost (sea level w/o gimbal), and Raptor Vacuum (RVac) have been evolved/merged into,

 

Raptor 2: 230 tonnes of thrust, either gimbaled or fixed.

Raptor Vacuum (RVac): may or may not have a Raptor 2 core, TBD

 

Super Heavy: 32-33 x Raptor 2, up to 7,600 tonne-force of thrust
Starship: looking at 3 Raptor 2's, up to 6 RVacs

[FloatingFatMan]

On 04/07/2021 at 14:52, DocM said:

 

 

Oh wow... And people still take this guy seriously?  🤦‍♂️

[bguy_1986]

 

[DocM]

2 hours ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Oh wow... And people still take this guy seriously?  🤦‍♂️

Yes, because retrieving space junk/failed satellites not a new idea - the Shuttle did it in 1984. STS-51A (Discovery) retrieved 2 failed satellites (Palapa B2 and Westar 6). It did this after deploying Anik D2 and Syncom IV-1.

 

The Starship is best viewed as a super-Shuttle; cheaper to launch/operate because of reusability, capable of BEO missions, and with a honkin' huge payload bay & door. 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by DocM

[FloatingFatMan]

39 minutes ago, DocM said:

Yes, because retrieving space junk/failed satellites not a new idea - the Shuttle did it in 1984. STS-51A (Discovery) retrieved 2 failed satellites (Palapa B2 and Westar 6). It did this after deploying Anik D2 and Syncom IV-1.

 

The Starship is best viewed as a super-Shuttle; cheaper to launch/operate because of reusability, capable of BEO missions, and with a honkin' huge payload bay & door. 

Retrieving space junk isn't my problem with his post... Chopping it up into little bits with the front of your ship? THAT is my problem.  Utterly ridiculous nonsense you'd expect from the imagination of a 5 year old, not a grown engineer.

[DocM]

10 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Retrieving space junk isn't my problem with his post... Chopping it up into little bits with the front of your ship? THAT is my problem.  Utterly ridiculous nonsense you'd expect from the imagination of a 5 year old, not a grown engineer.

 

The misconception is yours;  the vehicle's development name is Chomper, so "chomping up" debris simply means it opens its alligator jaw door and secures it inside. Easy enough to do with Kevlar or Vectran netting which tightens around it.

[FloatingFatMan]

1 minute ago, DocM said:

 

The misconception is yours;  the vehicle's development name is Chomper, so "chomping up" debris simply means it opens its alligator jaw door and secures it inside. Easy enough to do with Kevlar or Vectran netting which tightens around it.

Elon's OWN WORDS, buttercup...

 

"Yes, we can fly Starship around space & chomp up debris with the moving fairing door"

 

Emphasis mine.  There's no misconception here, just the stupid words of a conman.

[DocM]

Just now, FloatingFatMan said:

Elon's OWN WORDS, buttercup...

 

"Yes, we can fly Starship around space & chomp up debris with the moving fairing door"

 

Emphasis mine.  There's no misconception here, just the stupid words of a conman.

 

"Chomp" can mean either bite or chew, in this context it's the former.

 

chomp

verb

\ ˈchämp  , ˈchȯmp \

chomped; chomping; chomps

Definition of chomp

intransitive verb

1: to chew or bite on something

 

Chomper bites, like an alligator.

[FloatingFatMan]

6 minutes ago, DocM said:

 

"Chomp" can mean either bite or chew, in this context it's the former.

 

chomp

verb

\ ˈchämp  , ˈchȯmp \

chomped; chomping; chomps

Definition of chomp

intransitive verb

1: to chew or bite on something

 

Chomper bites, like an alligator.

However you try to define it to make Musk not appear an idiot, his meaning is clear.  Use the front of the ship to capture pieces of space junk in a biting motion and break them into smaller pieces in the process.  A monumentally stupid idea, but I'm not the slightest bit surprised that you think it's great...

[Louisifer]

Theres nothing wrong with his tweet. While playing hungry hungry hippos I have never once chomped the balls into smaller pieces. he mentioned nothing about breaking it up, everything floating in space is debris, and we have a tonne of small/medium sized crap up there besides satellites. He could have used swallow but as the door is essentially a mouth chomping is more fitting.

I know you hate elon, but hes closer to fixing the space debris problem right now than anyone else. actions are speaking louder than words.

[FloatingFatMan]

13 minutes ago, Louisifer said:

Theres nothing wrong with his tweet. While playing hungry hungry hippos I have never once chomped the balls into smaller pieces. he mentioned nothing about breaking it up, everything floating in space is debris, and we have a tonne of small/medium sized crap up there besides satellites. He could have used swallow but as the door is essentially a mouth chomping is more fitting.

He literally said "chomp up debris" is his tweet...  

 

Quote

I know you hate elon, but hes closer to fixing the space debris problem right now than anyone else. actions are speaking louder than words.

I don't hate him, I just don't believe the sun shines out his backside and view everything he proposes with an actual PRACTICAL eye that's firmly grounded in reality that can see just how far many of his promises actually are from reality.

 

He's a dreamer, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  But many of his dreams are just that, dreams.

 

Oh, and he's a bit of a plagiarist, too.

 

 

EDIT: As for the space debris problem, I too used to think it was a big issue, until I decided to actually learn a bit more about it.  Just a little knowledge of orbital mechanics and reading a few scientific papers, and I learned it's much less of a problem than people think.  The vast majority of it will just de-orbit from a combination atmospheric drag and gravity after a few years and most of it will burn up.  What doesn't is far more likely to hit the ocean than any people, in fact, the odds of getting hit by space debris are somewhat lower then me landing a date with Scarlett Johansson!

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by FloatingFatMan

[Louisifer]

3 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

He literally said "chomp up debris" is his tweet

The hungry hippos still stand, you can chomp up balls all day with their chomping action, if he said grind up or crush then i would see your point.

 

We need dreamers, the billionaires are using up their own money or money of other rich folk, if they fail then all the advances along the way make it easier for the next person to take us to the stars.

[Astra.Xtreme]

4 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

 

I don't hate him, I just don't believe the sun shines out his backside and view everything he proposes with an actual PRACTICAL eye that's firmly grounded in reality that can see just how far many of his promises actually are from reality.

 

He's a dreamer, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  But many of his dreams are just that, dreams.

 

Oh, and he's a bit of a plagiarist, too.

 

There's no need to lie...  There's 51 pages of this thread, and many of them have you running your mouth about how much you think Elon is an idiot.  It seems pretty clear that you spend a lot of time overthinking everything thing that he says.  Not sure why you're so threatened about discussing ideas and solutions to problems in space travel...

[FloatingFatMan]

Just now, Astra.Xtreme said:

There's no need to lie...  There's 51 pages of this thread, and many of them have you running your mouth about how much you think Elon is an idiot.  It seems pretty clear that you spend a lot of time overthinking everything thing that he says.  Not sure why you're so threatened about discussing ideas and solutions to problems in space travel...

Because I have a firm grasp of what's possible, and what's stupid. 

 

Landing rocket boosters was a great idea and I congratulate him on making it both possible and reliable, but his economics don't add up.

Going from one side of the world to the other on a rocket in just an hour sounds great, but it's literally impossible.  You can't even load the fuel in that time, let alone the passengers...

Solar roofs was a great idea, but the reality is that hardly any installations have happened, they don't produce the promised results, and they're more than double the promised cost.

Affordable electric cars was a great idea and I congratulate him on making the industry invest, but his cars are built like garbage and his promises about self-driving have yet to be realised.  Roundabouts are easy, he said.. OK, so why can't your cars go around roundabouts, Elon?

Electric trucks was a great idea, but they carefully didn't mention the weight of the batteries needed to haul an average truck load.  The figures rapidly exceed the maximum allowed weight on roads, making them economically unviable as they just can't haul a big enough load.

Cybertruck looks neat, but it's a deathtrap for anyone not inside the thing.

 

[Astra.Xtreme]

16 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Because I have a firm grasp of what's possible, and what's stupid. 

 

Landing rocket boosters was a great idea and I congratulate him on making it both possible and reliable, but his economics don't add up.

Going from one side of the world to the other on a rocket in just an hour sounds great, but it's literally impossible.  You can't even load the fuel in that time, let alone the passengers...

Solar roofs was a great idea, but the reality is that hardly any installations have happened, they don't produce the promised results, and they're more than double the promised cost.

Affordable electric cars was a great idea and I congratulate him on making the industry invest, but his cars are built like garbage and his promises about self-driving have yet to be realised.  Roundabouts are easy, he said.. OK, so why can't your cars go around roundabouts, Elon?

Electric trucks was a great idea, but they carefully didn't mention the weight of the batteries needed to haul an average truck load.  The figures rapidly exceed the maximum allowed weight on roads, making them economically unviable as they just can't haul a big enough load.

Cybertruck looks neat, but it's a deathtrap for anyone not inside the thing.

 

This is exactly the problem...  You're so convinced about yourself that you don't even bother to look at the facts.  How long does it take to load fuel on a Falcon 9 rocket?  How long does it take to board people onto a passenger jet?  Do you really think those things take an hour?
Regardless, the hour timescale is about flight time, not total time from placing said rocket on launch pad to removing it from the landing pad.  Again, you look way too far into these things and get it completely wrong.

Not sure what you don't get about auto pilot being beta?  Ever heard of the levels of autonomy?  Educate yourself on it...  Nowhere has it been stated that Tesla's are at the level of full autonomy.
We're seeing the first electrics trucks soon and they will get better over time.   Just as electric cars have.  Now sure why you think the Cybertruck is any more dangerous than a semi or other large truck.  Again, reaching for such distant straws...

[FloatingFatMan]

3 minutes ago, Astra.Xtreme said:

This is exactly the problem...  You're so convinced about yourself that you don't even bother to look at the facts.  How long does it take to load fuel on a Falcon 9 rocket?  How long does it take to board people onto a passenger jet?  Do you really think those things take an hour?
Regardless, the hour timescale is about flight time, not total time from placing said rocket on launch pad to removing it from the landing pad.  Again, you look way too far into these things and get it completely wrong.

Not sure what you don't get about auto pilot being beta?  Ever heard of the levels of autonomy?  Educate yourself on it...  Nowhere has it been stated that Tesla's are at the level of full autonomy.
We're seeing the first electrics trucks soon and they will get better over time.   Just as electric cars have.  Now sure why you think the Cybertruck is any more dangerous than a semi or other large truck.  Again, reaching for such distant straws...

It's precisely because I HAVE educated myself that I stopped drinking the Muskoil.  As for the Cybertruck... If you can't see that anyone getting hit by that monstrosity is going to turned into paté, then I can't help you. Vehicles are designed with crumple zones for a reason.  You can't build a crumple zone out of reinforced plate steel.  

[Steven P. Administrators]

14 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

It's precisely because I HAVE educated myself that I stopped drinking the Muskoil.  As for the Cybertruck... If you can't see that anyone getting hit by that monstrosity is going to turned into paté, then I can't help you. Vehicles are designed with crumple zones for a reason.  You can't build a crumple zone out of reinforced plate steel.  

Trucks generally do not have crumple zones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash_incompatibility#:~:text=For example%2C some SUVs and,requirements like the NCAP test. and crumple zones are mainly to protect  the occupant of the vehicle, not the bystander. Laws of physics dictate that crumple zone or not, being hit at speeds upward of 39mph start to become fatal.

[DocM]

1 hour ago, FloatingFatMan said:

However you try to define it to make Musk not appear an idiot, his meaning is clear.  Use the front of the ship to capture pieces of space junk in a biting motion and break them into smaller pieces in the process.  A monumentally stupid idea, but I'm not the slightest bit surprised that you think it's great...

 

It's not clear at all unless you choose to parse it that way and no other.  

52 minutes ago, FloatingFatMan said:

Because I have a firm grasp of what's possible, and what's stupid. 

 

Facts not in evidence 🤪

 

Quote

Landing rocket boosters was a great idea and I congratulate him on making it both possible and reliable, but his economics don't add up.

 

SpaceX has laid out the economics with specifics as to the percentage of costs attributable to the booster, upper stage, fairing, recovery ops and refurbishment. They can refly a booster & fairing at nearly half price and still make a profit.

 

Quote

Going from one side of the world to the other on a rocket in just an hour sounds great, but it's literally impossible.  You can't even load the fuel in that time, let alone the passengers...

 

The quoted times are flight times. How long does it take to gas up and load an A380? Similar size compared to the Starship vehicle.

 

Starship and Super Heavy will load in parallel, and since the version 1.0 ground support equipment is being built your judgement is premature. All that's known is those pipes are humongous.

 

Quote

Solar roofs was a great idea, but the reality is that hardly any installations have happened, they don't produce the promised results, and they're more than double the promised cost.

Like their cars, production will go through  a period of ramping. Tesla has produced about 3 million cars since 2008, but will produce over 1 million in just 2022.  

 

Price: yes, Solar Roof appears to cost 2x as much as traditional solar panels - but that's taking a narrow view. It's also a totally new premium roofing system, so add the two and it's a better deal. This also makes it ideal for new installations.

 

Quote

Affordable electric cars was a great idea and I congratulate him on making the industry invest, but his cars are built like garbage

 

Not according to auto industry analyst Sandy Munro and others. Panel gaps are gone, a victim of casting the rear underbody in one piece instead of doing a weldup. See Giga Press. They've also upgraded the paint system, etc.

 

Quote

and his promises about self-driving have yet to be realised.  Roundabouts are easy, he said.. OK, so why can't your cars go around roundabouts, Elon?

 

That's why FSD is still in beta. Call back after release.

 

Quote

Electric trucks was a great idea, but they carefully didn't mention the weight of the batteries needed to haul an average truck load.  The figures rapidly exceed the maximum allowed weight on roads, making them economically unviable as they just can't haul a big enough load.

 

With the new 4680 cells the batteries could easily be lighter than a Class 8  truck's driveline, fuel tanks, axels, drive shaft, etc. which get erased. They're road legal, in tests running loads in the US, and with a 500 mile range they can cover 80% of US large truck routes which are regional.  

 

Quote

Cybertruck looks neat, but it's a deathtrap for anyone not inside the thing.

 

Your perception ≠ reality, and the plain fact is most US pickups and SUVs are built like battering rams. Let's see what NHTSA says. 

 

[FloatingFatMan]

3 minutes ago, Steven P. said:

Trucks generally do not have crumple zones https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash_incompatibility#:~:text=For example%2C some SUVs and,requirements like the NCAP test. and crumple zones are mainly to protect  the occupant of the vehicle, not the bystander. Laws of physics dictate that crumple zone or not, being hit at speeds upward of 39mph start to become fatal.

Respectfully,  a pedestrians head bouncing off the hood of a regular pickup at 10mph is probably not going to smash like a coconut. A head bouncing off a Cybertruck's hood at 10mph is very likely going to shatter like a coconut hit with a sledgehammer.

 

I don't know about safety regs in the US, but many EU regulatory bodies have already commented the Cybertruck would be very unlikely to be allowed on their roads without some major redesign.