No TPM? No Windows 11 for you!

[+Fahim S. MVC]

On 27/06/2021 at 08:56, ThaCrip said:

If it's not this, it will probably be something else that get people as a whole to largely reject Win11 given Microsoft's rep over the long term. because Microsoft has a pattern of good/bad/good/bad with OS's (for a long time now (ill just start from when PC's pretty much went mainstream)) which, if the pattern holds, Win11 will be part of the 'bad' group....

 

Win98(good)/WinME(bad)/WinXP(good)/WinVista(bad)/Win7(good)/Win8(bad)/Win10(good)... Win11(bad(?)).

 

p.s. I am not counting Win2k because while it was a good OS the average person could use, it was never targeted at the common user, so I did not count it. if I did, it would have broke the pattern. also, while Vista was not bad after a while, and apparently the same with Win8, those OS's were largely rejected by the masses since people generally stuck to WinXP, and the newer OS people who moved past WinXP generally stuck with Win7 until people were forced to something newer which, to state the obvious, is the current Win10, which is the only real choice for Windows users at this point.

How young are you to think PCs didn't go mainstream until Windows 98? What about 95 and 3.11? both of them were very popular. 

 

IE4 Desktop Update for Windows 95 was practically a version of the OS itself.

[adrynalyne]

22 minutes ago, Fahim S. said:

How young are you to think PCs didn't go mainstream until Windows 98? What about 95 and 3.11? both of them were very popular. 

 

IE4 Desktop Update for Windows 95 was practically a version of the OS itself.

3.11 was more for businesses, wasn’t it?

 

I didn’t really take off on computers until 95. Then I realized how much it sucked and started looking at NT, Linux, and FreeBSD. 
 

Linux was so unstable back then…

[George P Global Moderator]

New system requirement blog post is out.

 

Windows 11 raises the bar for security by requiring hardware that can enable protections like Windows Hello, Device Encryption, virtualization-based security (VBS), hypervisor-protected code integrity (HVCI) and Secure Boot. The combination of these features has been shown to reduce malware by 60% on tested devices. Windows 11 does this all supported CPUs having an embedded TPM, supporting secure boot, and supporting VBS and specific VBS capabilities.

[Skyfrog]

30 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

3.11 was more for businesses, wasn’t it?

 

I didn’t really take off on computers until 95. Then I realized how much it sucked and started looking at NT, Linux, and FreeBSD. 
 

Linux was so unstable back then…

You're probably thinking of Windows for Workgroups 3.11, but the final update for the regular Windows 3.1 brought it up to version 3.11 also.

There was also a Windows 3.2 but it was only released in China.

[adrynalyne]

1 minute ago, Skyfrog said:

You're probably thinking of Windows for Workgroups 3.11, but the final update for the regular Windows 3.1 brought it up to version 3.11 also.

There was also a Windows 3.2 but it was only released in China.

Ah good to know.

 

Thanks for the history lesson.👍

[ThaCrip]

7 hours ago, Fahim S. said:

How young are you to think PCs didn't go mainstream until Windows 98? What about 95 and 3.11? both of them were very popular. 

I am in my early 40's and my 1998-2000 claim has to be pretty close as I would have been around 20 years old in those days. NOTE: my first PC was in 1995 and was Win v3.11 and while 1995 is not quite the very early days (which I imagine is probably 1991-1992 off the top of my head(?) without going TOO far back), I still think it's comfortably before most people had a desktop computer to ball park things.

 

sure, I get even before that point they where gaining in popularity etc. so it's not like say 1997 was the 'early days' (as in close to beginning level), and 1998 was instantly modern times, but it's probably safe to say many(probably even most(?)) people probably did not have a computer before around 1998 in my estimations vs from around 1998-2000 on forward where it probably started to get a lot more common for people to own a computer etc. I don't know the exact details on sales figures here but ill bet I am not far off either way.

 

hell, in fact in my area high-speed (cable) internet was not available until the year 2000 and according to the person who installed it said I was one of the first to get it etc. I think stuff like this further confirms my estimate of 1998-2000. because if they got cable internet in the year 2000 that means there had to be plenty enough PC's out there before this point for it to make sense for them from a business perspective. that's kind of why I figure 1998 sounds like a pretty close figure when computer sales to more common people started to shoot up etc.

 

but speaking of this stuff and with all of that said... I am just curious to see what your experience and others are in this regard? ; but I suspect it can't be much either way of what I said given I am estimating things from more of a mainstream popularity perspective where most people had a desktop computer etc, or thereabouts. because unless I am WAY off it's probably a safe bet that most people (as in the common person) did not have computers in the early 1990's. so it had to be somewhere 1995+ and since it probably took a little while before many/most people had one, that's kind of why I figure 1998-2000 has to be in the ball park.

 

p.s. I think that also plays inline with general cell phones to as it seemed probably up around 1997-1998 before more common people started to use cell phones which played out similarly to computers. or put it this way... at least here in the USA it's probably pretty safe for me to say that the vast majority of people where not using cell phones in the mid-1990's and I would imagine the same applies to desktop computers to. so it was probably the mid-90's to a bit past that (I would imagine this is probably a early figure) before things started to shoot up given that cable internet in the year 2000 thing I mentioned.

[ThaCrip]

8 hours ago, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

Yeah, I don't see Windows 11 being largely rejected like Windows ME, Vista, and 8. Those were versions one had to pay for to upgrade which is not the case with Windows 11 so those that qualify will probably upgrade. A lot of eople would buy new machines with ME, Vista, and 8 and install the previous version of Windows. I don't see that happening at all with PCs that come with Windows 11. Windows 11 is really a minor upgrade over Windows 10 except for the laying of the ground work for better security of the platform.

 

Yeah, it might not be rejected 'as much' as those if it's offered for free. but... unless I am way off, it seem like people hold onto their computers longer than they used to simply because CPU power (hell, even amount of RAM has plateaued where people don't need to upgrade that nearly as much either) has reached a point for a while now that it does not get obviously outdated like it used to fairly quickly back in the late 1990's and say maybe early-to-mid 2000's or thereabouts (and like I mentioned, even system RAM seems to have reacted similarly).

 

so there will be plenty of good hardware that simply won't work, especially if that 8th gen Intel CPU or newer stuff is true to run Win11 which is going to eliminate the vast majority of computers running Windows from upgrading to Win11.

 

because from a quick look online it seems like 8th gen Intel was released late 2017 or so(?) and 4 years of computers is nothing compared to what's out there still being regularly used. so unless people are in the habit of dumping their laptops every handful of years or so to get a newer one(which they should not need one if they get one with a decent CPU), it seems like that Win11 requirement stuff will be a clear problem.

 

p.s. but with all of that said... I might be a little out of touch with many average people today who stick to their smart phones for general internet than a proper computer (i.e. desktop/laptop) as to me if I am going to really use it, a desktop is still hands down my preferred method for accessing internet and general use as a smart phone is only better if your looking up something quickly but much beyond that, a desktop is hands down my preferred option and will be for the foreseeable future.

[Good Bot, Bad Bot]

24 minutes ago, ThaCrip said:

 

Yeah, it might not be rejected 'as much' as those if it's offered for free. but... unless I am way off, it seem like people hold onto their computers longer than they used to simply because CPU power (hell, even amount of RAM has plateaued where people don't need to upgrade that nearly as much either) has reached a point for a while now that it does not get obviously outdated like it used to fairly quickly back in the late 1990's and say maybe early-to-mid 2000's or thereabouts (and like I mentioned, even system RAM seems to have reacted similarly).

 

so there will be plenty of good hardware that simply won't work, especially if that 8th gen Intel CPU or newer stuff is true to run Win11 which is going to eliminate the vast majority of computers running Windows from upgrading to Win11.

 

because from a quick look online it seems like 8th gen Intel was released late 2017 or so(?) and 4 years of computers is nothing compared to what's out there still being regularly used. so unless people are in the habit of dumping their laptops every handful of years or so to get a newer one(which they should not need one if they get one with a decent CPU), it seems like that Win11 requirement stuff will be a clear problem.

 

p.s. but with all of that said... I might be a little out of touch with many average people today who stick to their smart phones for general internet than a proper computer (i.e. desktop/laptop) as to me if I am going to really use it, a desktop is still hands down my preferred method for accessing internet and general use as a smart phone is only better if your looking up something quickly but much beyond that, a desktop is hands down my preferred option and will be for the foreseeable future.

I really don't think Microsoft is so concerned about how fast Windows 11 is adopted aka no "1 billion devices on Windows 11 in two years" promises but that the platform becomes more secure.

[ThaCrip]

4 hours ago, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

I really don't think Microsoft is so concerned about how fast Windows 11 is adopted aka no "1 billion devices on Windows 11 in two years" promises but that the platform becomes more secure.

 

Yeah, being more secure is good. but if it's sacrificing a boatload of devices not being supported, in the end it's not enough of a security increase to justify doing that in my mind.

 

but we shall see how it all plays out

[George P Global Moderator]

7 hours ago, Good Bot, Bad Bot said:

I really don't think Microsoft is so concerned about how fast Windows 11 is adopted aka no "1 billion devices on Windows 11 in two years" promises but that the platform becomes more secure.

Considering a number of things are also going to be in Windows 10, not so much.  The new store for example is coming to Windows 10.    With the change to single annual feature updates to 11 as well compared to 2 a year like 10, they're also in no rush to get it out faster.   

[4CxbqFxVnstmA Veteran]

On 24/06/2021 at 18:45, neufuse said:

Software (Emulated TPM that could use a real TPM or KMIP server for a primary TPM key, stuff like ESX Enterprise do this to provide TPM services to VM's)

Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but I think you're saying that I should be able to run Windows 11 in a VM. But does Virtualbox provide an emulated TPM?

[adrynalyne]

58 minutes ago, James7 said:

Forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but I think you're saying that I should be able to run Windows 11 in a VM. But does Virtualbox provide an emulated TPM?

It doesn't look very promising.

https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?t=91277

[4CxbqFxVnstmA Veteran]

9 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

It doesn't look very promising.

https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?t=91277

Thanks, well, I can wait and see. I just wanted to be able to tinker with Windows 11.

[Louisifer]

Hyper V has an option to use emulated TPM and secureboot, if you want to tinker with it.

[xrobwx71]

On 24/06/2021 at 16:21, virtorio said:

Until running the PC Health Check app I had no idea I didn't have Secure Boot enabled nor the AMD fTPM feature enabled.

Anytime I have ever messed with dual booting linux/windows, part of the initial instructions are, "disable secure boot".

[adrynalyne]

32 minutes ago, xrobwx71 said:

Anytime I have ever messed with dual booting linux/windows, part of the initial instructions are, "disable secure boot".

Maybe with the half-rate garage distros but I cannot remember the last time I had to. 

[spaceelf]

32 minutes ago, adrynalyne said:

Maybe with the half-rate garage distros but I cannot remember the last time I had to. 

I tried a bunch of popular distros recently.  At least 3/4 I had to disable it for iirc.  (Clear, Fedora, Steam, Manjaro Gaming Edition...not sure what else I tried.)

[TrypticryptiC]

I have the Asus Crosshair V Formula-Z running AMD fx-8350, and the mb comes with a TPM-L R2.0 port (TPM-L is 19+1 and TPM-M is 14+1) and I think it was just a bang up move by Asus including a technology that would not be implemented in any fashion until a decade later, when all the modules have fallen off the market due to lack of use scenarios, yet still have the product on their website, yet no distributers to share.

You can find them, but they are jacked up in price. The TPM-M are easy to find, but prices are rising due to necessity that Microsoft has suddenly and without warning added as a demand to run its new OS.

Why does Microsoft pull this sh**? They are the biggest pc tech company, and they have pretty smart people (debatable as to definition of "smart") that work for them, they have marketing and pr people. Yet no-one seems to have the "epiphany" that consumer communication and notification in preparation for a newly oldly (unnecessarily - due better options available for hardware based security modules) implemented tech, that's newly a primary requirement to even install - let alone have full use of the system - would not just allow for more acceptance, and easier transitions, less confusion, less support calls, less angry consumers, and just one less fiasco to deal with on any level. When a tech company can easily be compared and probably less preferred than banging ones head against a wall, maybe.. act less ignorant to public need and general simplicity.

But that's just my grain of salty.

Edited July 9, 2021 by TrypticryptiC

[TrypticryptiC]

*That's actually my old system, I am selling to a friend. My new system is MSI MPG B550 Gaming Carbon WiFi, Ryzen 3600, which came with a bad MB first, then the CPU went RMA, now waiting on the MB again. Since I mentioned banging my head against the wall, I figured it applied. Hope to hell TPM is already embedded somewhere, because this build will render me somewhere around homicidal frames per second.

[TrypticryptiC]

On 28/06/2021 at 09:16, Randomevent said:

If you're dumb enough to believe conspiracy theories there's a seperate forum for you.

Bang on bro. To this day not a single conspiracy theory has been proven true.

• Snopes.com researches deeply and supplies true or false indicators for rumors or conspiracy theories.
• People need to know the difference between a "conspiracy" and a "conspiracy theory". A proven conspiracy is not the same as a proven conspiracy theory just because people don't understand the difference.

[adrynalyne]

On 07/07/2021 at 20:12, Randomevent said:

I tried a bunch of popular distros recently.  At least 3/4 I had to disable it for iirc.  (Clear, Fedora, Steam, Manjaro Gaming Edition...not sure what else I tried.)

Fedora without a doubt supports Secure Boot. 
 

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SecureBoot

 

Edit:
 

Ubuntu does too. 
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEFI/SecureBoot

 

I honestly would not lump steam nor clear into the same class as these two in terms of maturity and popularity. I am surprised about Manjaro. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by adrynalyne

[adrynalyne]

Ignore. 

[d5aqoëp]

The Intel NUC 4 I use has a TPM 2.0 chip.... shockingly. But the 4th Gen i3 4010U processor is not supported. However, Windows 11 installed on it without any drama or any errors. Really strange.

[adrynalyne]

28 minutes ago, d5aqoëp said:

The Intel NUC 4 I use has a TPM 2.0 chip.... shockingly. But the 4th Gen i3 4010U processor is not supported. However, Windows 11 installed on it without any drama or any errors. Really strange.

The Insider channel has relaxed restrictions. That is supposed to change on final release, but who knows.

[RottGutt]

On 27/06/2021 at 12:46, PRODIGY- said:

I have TPM enabled. My issue is SECURE BOOT. After I enable it, windows will not load at all. I have followed every guide I could find and nop. Its not possible. Its a 3 month old Gaming rig.

Sorry, this comment is a little late in the game....

 

If I'm not mistaken, you have to enable Secure Boot BEFORE installing Windows.