What Desktop Linux Needs to Succeed in the Mainstream

[Sun-Tzu]

Link: https://news.itsfoss.com/what-desktop-linux-needs-to-succeed-in-the-mainstream/

Quote

 

From the Article 

"Desktop Linux needs to be pre-installed on retail hardware to succeed in the mainstream"

That’s it.

 

 

[+virtorio MVC]

Linux succeeds whenever the "Linux" part is abstracted away.

[+Mud W1ggle Subscriber²]

Linux needs Microsoft Office.

 

Now I know that Libra Office etc are available, but they arent as good as Word and Excel, and especially Outlook - if you work with Office365 accounts as much as I do, having a decent Exchange supported email client is essential.

 

I spend most of my day in ssh shells and I would run Linux as my desktop OS except that I NEED Outlook to function

 

 

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

On 16/12/2021 at 15:02, Mud W1ggle said:

Linux needs Microsoft Office.

 

Now I know that Libra Office etc are available, but they arent as good as Word and Excel, and especially Outlook - if you work with Office365 accounts as much as I do, having a decent Exchange supported email client is essential.

 

I spend most of my day in ssh shells and I would run Linux as my desktop OS except that I NEED Outlook to function

 

 

Ever heard of WINE?

[adam7288]

Dey shou jus replase da nt kernal wit da linux 5 kernal and make da profit rewerd

[adrynalyne]

On 16/12/2021 at 13:37, Sun-Tzu said:

Link: https://news.itsfoss.com/what-desktop-linux-needs-to-succeed-in-the-mainstream/

 

Dell XPS laptops have been doing it for years. Hasn’t helped so far. 

On 16/12/2021 at 23:14, adam7288 said:

Dey shou jus replase da nt kernal wit da linux 5 kernal and make da profit rewerd

IQ -50. 

[MS Bob 11]

Last time I sincerely gave it a try, I found the case sensitivity of Linux file systems extremely difficult to deal with/unneeded complexity when doing file management. Is there a way to turn it off for ext4 or whatever so it is case-preserving like NTFS but not case sensitive ? I simply do not need it.

 

Also I couldn't find a single desktop environment which lets me shows directory contents as cascading menu items like Classic Shell / Open Shell on Windows (or Windows 7/XP/2000 and earlier). Maybe I didn't look hard enough. With Xfce, I got the "panel" to sort of work like the Windows taskbar - not quite 100%, it still wouldn't show active/foreground window button differently on the taskbar vs background window buttons, but it was acceptable. But its Start menu had no folders as cascading flyout menus.

[Nick H. Supervisor]

Dell offered to install Ubuntu on the computer about 10 years ago. Taking a quick look on the UK site now, it seems that they have removed that option for home users. Perhaps even with the hardware distributor offering Linux, no one was taking it.

 

There are two issues that I see: familiarity and functionality.

 

Everyone uses Windows because Windows is everywhere. When you're at school your computer is probably running Windows. When you grow and get to your workplace your computer is probably running Windows. So when you go home, what are you expecting your computer to have? Windows. You're used to it, you know it.

 

The second issue is functionality. As has been mentioned above, Microsoft Office is not (easily) available for Linux users, and the competing products just aren't as compatible as they should be. I've used Open Office to try and modify a file that was sent to me from someone using Word, but quite often it scrambles the formatting up. That means it takes me longer to edit the document compared to if I just opened Microsoft Office on my work laptop. Office isn't the only issue though - people are used to going online, and if they want an application that does something it gets provided in a .exe format. It takes time to learn to look for a .deb package instead, and if you're only doing that for your home office you could come to resent the idea; this brings us back to my point before about familiarity.

 

On 17/12/2021 at 06:50, Mindovermaster said:

Ever heard of WINE?

I can get WINE installed and working for most of the things I need. But I work in IT and like tinkering around. If I put Linux on my mum or sister's laptop and told them, "it's fine, just use WINE for your Windows applications" I would get all kinds of hell from them. Yes, there are some GUI options but in their mind it's still an added hassle compared to when they used Windows, which just worked for them.

 

On 17/12/2021 at 07:14, adam7288 said:

Dey shou jus replase da nt kernal wit da linux 5 kernal and make da profit rewerd

Fo' sho', my dude...or maybe not, I don't understand what was written there.

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

On 17/12/2021 at 01:48, Nick H. said:

I can get WINE installed and working for most of the things I need. But I work in IT and like tinkering around. If I put Linux on my mum or sister's laptop and told them, "it's fine, just use WINE for your Windows applications" I would get all kinds of hell from them. Yes, there are some GUI options but in their mind it's still an added hassle compared to when they used Windows, which just worked for them.

WINE isn't fool-safe. Not everything works. Can be totally different from person to person. I'm not saying "It will work with any Windows application"

 

No one understands how Linux works..  

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

On 17/12/2021 at 00:46, MS Bob 11 said:

Last time I sincerely gave it a try, I found the case sensitivity of Linux file systems extremely difficult to deal with/unneeded complexity when doing file management. Is there a way to turn it off for ext4 or whatever so it is case-preserving like NTFS but not case sensitive ? I simply do not need it.

 

Also I couldn't find a single desktop environment which lets me shows directory contents as cascading menu items like Classic Shell / Open Shell on Windows (or Windows 7/XP/2000 and earlier). Maybe I didn't look hard enough. With Xfce, I got the "panel" to sort of work like the Windows taskbar - not quite 100%, it still wouldn't show active/foreground window button differently on the taskbar vs background window buttons, but it was acceptable. But its Start menu had no folders as cascading flyout menus.

That Puppy Linux?

 

ext4 is in ways leap and bounds better over NTFS.

 

Everything in Linux is case sensative. Dunno what you are complaining about.

 

ls is your directory contents friend.

 

Never try to make it "work like Windows" It isn't Windows, mate. BUT I think KDE Plasma or Cinnamon would be better if you want the "Windows look"

 

The Wisker menu in XFCE might help you more.

 

[+Mud W1ggle Subscriber²]

On 17/12/2021 at 18:50, Mindovermaster said:

Ever heard of WINE?

Ever tried running Office in WINE on a high DPI screen?

 

Its a very unpleasant experience

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

On 17/12/2021 at 16:16, Mud W1ggle said:

Ever tried running Office in WINE on a high DPI screen?

 

Its a very unpleasant experience

Surely there's a way to tone that down in WINE. Never tried installing office, but I have run that on other applications.

[Gerowen]

On 16/12/2021 at 16:02, Mud W1ggle said:

Linux needs Microsoft Office.

 

Now I know that Libra Office etc are available, but they arent as good as Word and Excel, and especially Outlook - if you work with Office365 accounts as much as I do, having a decent Exchange supported email client is essential.

 

I spend most of my day in ssh shells and I would run Linux as my desktop OS except that I NEED Outlook to function

 

 

I'm not sure if it works with what you would need, but I've been using Evolution for years and love it.  Email, contacts, calendar, tasks, spam filtering, etc.  I like it even better than Thunderbird because it's more akin to what I remember using on Microsoft Exchange back when I ran Windows.

[Gerowen]

On 16/12/2021 at 16:02, Mud W1ggle said:

Linux needs Microsoft Office.

 

Now I know that Libra Office etc are available, but they arent as good as Word and Excel, and especially Outlook - if you work with Office365 accounts as much as I do, having a decent Exchange supported email client is essential.

 

I spend most of my day in ssh shells and I would run Linux as my desktop OS except that I NEED Outlook to function

 

 

OnlyOffice looks pretty promising.  For my "personal" use cases I use LibreOffice/OpenDocument , but for use with work stuff that I get sent I've been using OnlyOffice.  It's FOSS and their whole thing is maximizing compatibility with MS Office formats, and it is definitely better with them than LibreOffice.  Excel forms that look totally jacked up in LibreOffice look totally fine in OnlyOffice.  For email/contact/calendar management I've been using Evolution.

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

On 01/01/2022 at 20:12, Gerowen said:

I'm not sure if it works with what you would need, but I've been using Evolution for years and love it.  Email, contacts, calendar, tasks, spam filtering, etc.  I like it even better than Thunderbird because it's more akin to what I remember using on Microsoft Exchange back when I ran Windows.

Yeah, Thunderbird aint what it used to be years ago.

 

I used Evolution, too. Nice setup, but it wasn't for me.

On 16/12/2021 at 15:02, Mud W1ggle said:

Linux needs Microsoft Office.

 

Now I know that Libra Office etc are available, but they arent as good as Word and Excel, and especially Outlook - if you work with Office365 accounts as much as I do, having a decent Exchange supported email client is essential.

 

I spend most of my day in ssh shells and I would run Linux as my desktop OS except that I NEED Outlook to function

 

 

To second this claim, What does MS Office do that Libre doesn't?

 

To me (sorry for the rant) you just don't want to learn it.

[PGHammer]

Every alternative to Office (including those that are not unique to Linux) has issues - even Corel Office - now from Nuance - and which was originally WprdPerfect.  I am NOT saying that Office is perfect - Office simply has fewer recent issues.

[+mram Subscriber²]

There's nothing easy about Linux. **

There's no software available for Linux. **

 

Those two facts alone will deter anyone.  You can say that "just having it installed from the hardware vendor" will do it, but that'll make everyone hate that vendor.

 

** - I'm rounding up.  Sure there are software products available, sure it might be easy for some, but most normal consumer humans look at a computer and say "I wanna play a game!" or "I need to do XYZ" and realize that on Windows and even MacOS, you at least have somewhere to go to get those products.  Linux is a challenge right out of the gate on both those fronts.

 

Hell I've left MacOS alone simply for the game support, which is basically atrocious, compared to Windows.  You know how Mac prides itself on "it just works"?  Well, at least on Windows you can get anything done.   Anything.

 

I'm rooting for Linux, believe me, but it's got a long way to go.

[sinetheo]

Wayland and a driver abi so blobls don't break similar to every other OS on the planet.

 

I won't run xorg period. I'll stick with wsl until this is fixed

[Mindovermaster Global Moderator]

On 15/05/2022 at 23:43, sinetheo said:

Wayland and a driver abi so blobls don't break similar to every other OS on the planet.

 

I won't run xorg period. I'll stick with wsl until this is fixed

Umm, we ain't talking about wayland or xorg..

Edited May 16, 2022 by Mindovermaster

[margrave]

Office 365 online maybe?

[devHead]

On 15/05/2022 at 21:04, mram said:

There's nothing easy about Linux. **

There's no software available for Linux. **

 

Those two facts alone will deter anyone.  You can say that "just having it installed from the hardware vendor" will do it, but that'll make everyone hate that vendor.

Neither of those statements are facts; they are opinions of the people who have never tried to use a Linux distribution.

Installing software on Linux is much easier than it is on Windows - you have a software store from which all your applications can be installed. Most of the more user-friendly distributions also include Flathub in their repository, which increases greatly the amount of software available. 

 

That basically also answers the second opinion, that there is no software available for Linux. You're right, there are no Adobe products. But most normal computer users don't use any Adobe software, except for maybe a PDF reader, of which there are many high-quality options for Linux.

 

The #1 reason why Linux doesn't have the foothold it does is simple - OEMs don't install it on the PCs they sell.  Most people use Windows, not because they built their own computer and went out and bought Windows OS.  They use Windows because the computer they bought had Windows installed on it.  That's it.  Not because it's better or easier, but because it was there.  And that is the OS everyone has learned how to use their computer on - Microsoft Windows.  Frankly, most PC users couldn't even tell you what OS is running on their computer.  They don't care - they want to surf the web, do their social networking garbage, check mail.  I would posit that 80% of PC users do everything on their PC from their browser. Some may use a Word processor now and again. 

[+Warwagon MVC]

The reason Linux will never succeed is because Linux will never standardize on app installation, each distro flavor does their own thing. All most people want to do is download something for "Linux" double click it and have it installed. Not have to worry about an RPM or dependencies or any other number of app packages and not have to worry, is this one for ubuntu ...or wait or Mint or Element or red Hat... just Linux.

[+mram Subscriber²]

On 16/05/2022 at 09:23, devHead said:

Neither of those statements are facts; they are opinions of the people who have never tried to use a Linux distribution.

<snip>

The #1 reason why Linux doesn't have the foothold it does is simple - OEMs don't install it on the PCs they sell.  

I've used and installed at least a dozen variants of *nix since 1995 where I did support for Redhat Linux in a call center in the late 90s.  I've done everything you can conceive of in a Linux architecture.  I've installed and run it as a primary workstation.  I've had MacOS as a primary workstation for 3 years, which also counts as it is a derivative.  I've seen it all.  Don't assume.  What I said is absolutely fact, if you assess the market as a whole.   There are virtually no games for Linux [that simply just work / are native], and people find Linux daunting and painfully difficult.  Putting it in front of people by preinstalling it on hardware is the tactical equivalent of assuming that putting live squirming squid in front of people for dinner is going to make people suddenly enjoy it.  That's fantasy... 

 

And before anyone gets all nitpicky on me, the point here is that people don't want complexity.  If I just want to play Civ 4, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops to make it work (WINE).  If I wanted to install Photoshop I shouldn't have to jump through hoops.  It will be painful, it will be hard, or it will be downright impossible to get it to work on Linux.  Compared to a metric truckton of applications, games, tools and support on Windows, Linux is comparatively still a niche OS serving specific needs.  But those needs that it serves, it does REALLY WELL.  I'm not at all knocking what *NIX does well, bear in mind -- I have massive love for the tech, but it's NOT a desktop OS for the masses.

 

Yes, you are totally right that most people want to do just surfing.  But if they want to do ANYTHING.... LITERALLY ANYTHING more than that they're going to pay close attention to the computer they buy.  They won't buy a chromebook for playing Doom.  They won't buy a MacOS or Linux for games.  It's that simple.  You don't see major productivity apps that are Linux supported.  They won't by a $500 (or more) full computer and not know how to start applications or just want it for browsing when virtually everyone has a phone or tablet for just that.  They only buy notebooks/desktops for CPU-working applications of a calibre that won't work on phone/tablet.   

 

EDIT:  Even if they did buy a computer that had Linux preinstalled on it and just used it for browsing, that logic wouldn't give it the foothold by default.  If that were true, by way of comparison Edge or IE would be the dominant browser, full stop.  People install what they need or want to get the job they need or want done, meaning Chrome is dominant because people like it more and just install it more.  It's not religious, it's just doing what they know and what they're familiar with.   The moment they try to do anything but browsing on a Linux box they'll freak out and .... LEARN LINUX / Recompile the kernel / Pour through compatability matrices ... screw that, they'll install Windows.

 

I laugh at the idea that I'd just magically replace Windows with Linux on my wife and kid's machines.  They'd freaking murder me.

 

What Linux really needs to do to succeed in the mainstream is to stop trying to piggyback on others successes, and develop it's own application and graphics stack/API (think Metal), create a common install library and secure repository for application distribution and sales, cater to application developers for native product installation and support, and iterate upon it to make it competitive.  Linux strengths are in it's modularity - forgoing simplicity - but there are no true advocates for app development not to mention graphic development on *nix.  Gaming through WINE will always be piggybacking on Windows success, and there needs to be a native option.  Not to mention a commonality for app install across linux distros.