main page poll Have you upgraded to Windows 11 yet?

[sinetheo]

On 21/01/2023 at 13:41, Steven P. said:

Sorry but when the changes make you less productive then it is not a user fault. Stop being an apologist for a megacorp that's out of touch and pushes bad ideas on end users that they ultimately are forced (at least in part) to backtrack on.

Makes you less productive because of ...?

[sinetheo]

Wow such hatred and fear here. This is a technology website too not an Oatmeal enthusiast site for Grandpas.

I don't get it. I hate Apple for good reason. I also hate Linux for other reasons and this is for use cases rather than the OS as a whole.

Really the changes between 10 vs 11 are minimal at best. I am not a win 11 fan ot either as I used both for awhile. There are things I like and dislike from both but nothing horrid or unusable or work flow issues or stability issues like I seen with other platforms that warrant such comments. SMH

People don't freak out when they buy a new car and it's different. How is your desktop different? I bought a new car recently and there things I like and do not like about it vs old one. At the end of the day that is life and it's just a tool to get to point A to point B. Same with Windows

Edited April 20, 2023 by sinetheo

[+Edouard Subscriber²]

On 20/04/2023 at 12:05, sinetheo said:

Wow such hatred and fear here. This is a technology website too not an Oatmeal enthusiast site for Grandpas.

I don't get it. I hate Apple for good reason. I also hate Linux for other reasons and this is for use cases rather than the OS as a whole.

You complain about what you see as hate against W11/MS then tell us you hate Apple and Linux.

Then you ridicule the people who have left a comment.

Nice one.

[ad47uk]

On 20/04/2023 at 03:05, sinetheo said:

Wow such hatred and fear here. This is a technology website too not an Oatmeal enthusiast site for Grandpas.

I don't get it. I hate Apple for good reason. I also hate Linux for other reasons and this is for use cases rather than the OS as a whole.

Really the changes between 10 vs 11 are minimal at best. I am not a win 11 fan ot either as I used both for awhile. There are things I like and dislike from both but nothing horrid or unusable or work flow issues or stability issues like I seen with other platforms that warrant such comments. SMH

People don't freak out when they buy a new car and it's different. How is your desktop different? I bought a new car recently and there things I like and do not like about it vs old one. At the end of the day that is life and it's just a tool to get to point A to point B. Same with Windows

The main problem with Windows 11 is that it is becoming or is an advertising platform for MS, also MS push their own stuff onto people far too much, look at search, it uses Bing and Edge, no way you can change that. windows is not much betetr.

I posted on this in January and I said then I did not mind Windows 11, in some ways I prefer it to Windows 10.  things have changed for me since then, I have now got myself a Mac mini m2 pro and compared to windows it is amazing, sure it is not perfect, there are things that annoy me, but i should have changed years ago.  But I was worried about what i have heard about it.

The difference between windows and Mac os is a lot, and I am surprised i have adapted so well to it. I still have the PC for a few games and in case I need to render two video clips at the same time. I mayt stick Windows 11 on it at some point. As you said, there is not a lot of difference between 10 and 11, apart from MKS trying to lock down Windows 11 more than Apple lock down Mac OS, which they don'

 

Why do you hate Mac Os and Linux?

Linux I like also.

You be surprised that some people do freak out about anew car, I know in the U.S Automatic cars are the thing, but most car in the UK have manual gear shifting, anyway my other half have been looking for a new car and is thinking of going for a hybrid, but the ones she has seen so far have automatic gears, and she hates that. There are other things on mdern cars she don't like, auto parking and sensors that slow the car down, she has a Land Rover, and she hates it as it keeps telling her how to drive and what gear she should be in.

 

 

[sinetheo]

On 20/04/2023 at 02:36, ad47uk said:

The main problem with Windows 11 is that it is becoming or is an advertising platform for MS, also MS push their own stuff onto people far too much, look at search, it uses Bing and Edge, no way you can change that. windows is not much betetr.

I posted on this in January and I said then I did not mind Windows 11, in some ways I prefer it to Windows 10.  things have changed for me since then, I have now got myself a Mac mini m2 pro and compared to windows it is amazing, sure it is not perfect, there are things that annoy me, but i should have changed years ago.  But I was worried about what i have heard about it.

The difference between windows and Mac os is a lot, and I am surprised i have adapted so well to it. I still have the PC for a few games and in case I need to render two video clips at the same time. I mayt stick Windows 11 on it at some point. As you said, there is not a lot of difference between 10 and 11, apart from MKS trying to lock down Windows 11 more than Apple lock down Mac OS, which they don'

 

Why do you hate Mac Os and Linux?

Linux I like also.

You be surprised that some people do freak out about anew car, I know in the U.S Automatic cars are the thing, but most car in the UK have manual gear shifting, anyway my other half have been looking for a new car and is thinking of going for a hybrid, but the ones she has seen so far have automatic gears, and she hates that. There are other things on mdern cars she don't like, auto parking and sensors that slow the car down, she has a Land Rover, and she hates it as it keeps telling her how to drive and what gear she should be in.

 

 

CVT transmissions are the plague. They are unreliable, break down, and steal all life out of the vehicle hence why I bought a Mazda recently when my old ride hit the dust. BUt I did not freak over the wheel looked different or the style caused me OCD because it didn't look my old crappy Kia.  That is really what people hate about Windows 11. Your concerns about privacy have all been back ported to Windows 7 so it is just a popular talking about.

I said that I hate Linux too for certain uses. Not as a whole which I knew would trigger people. I will not use Linux as a desktop OS and 22 years later it still is not ready or mature as Windows XP was. I stand by my comment on that and I could go on pages and pages of technical reasons why it will never compete without a complete overhaul of it's userland programs and nasty glue that is called Xorg and the apis built on top of it. 

I hate Apple because I have to spend $3000 to get more than 1 monitor to function is the main reason. Yes my employer purchased a $2600 MacPro (PRO GRADE) and was told by Apple it was not good enough as that chip still didn't support DisplayLink. I got rid of it and got a cheap $900 Lenovo. Dual monitors at 1440P works with no displayLink weirdness. I refuse to be treated that way on principle. 

[Arceles]

On 23/04/2023 at 00:06, sinetheo said:

I will not use Linux as a desktop OS and 22 years later it still is not ready or mature as Windows XP was. I stand by my comment on that and I could go on pages and pages of technical reasons why it will never compete without a complete overhaul of it's userland programs and nasty glue that is called Xorg and the apis built on top of it.

This is not true. Basically most popular distributions are miles better than windows 11 is. You saying this only shows that you haven tried Linux probably since the windows xp era. Proof of this is that there is some sort of windows 12 images circulating with a desktop which look too similar to gnome desktop.

[Nick H. Supervisor]

On 23/04/2023 at 08:06, sinetheo said:

I will not use Linux as a desktop OS and 22 years later it still is not ready or mature as Windows XP was. I stand by my comment on that and I could go on pages and pages of technical reasons why it will never compete without a complete overhaul of it's userland programs and nasty glue that is called Xorg and the apis built on top of it.

Since this thread is about Windows 11, I would appreciate it if you could PM me your pages of technical reasons about how Linux is not as mature as Windows XP. I've been using Mint daily for the past few years and I don't see what I'm missing. In fact, it appears to be more stable than my Windows 10 installation at the moment.

[ad47uk]

On 23/04/2023 at 07:06, sinetheo said:

CVT transmissions are the plague. They are unreliable, break down, and steal all life out of the vehicle hence why I bought a Mazda recently when my old ride hit the dust. BUt I did not freak over the wheel looked different or the style caused me OCD because it didn't look my old crappy Kia.  That is really what people hate about Windows 11. Your concerns about privacy have all been back ported to Windows 7 so it is just a popular talking about.

I said that I hate Linux too for certain uses. Not as a whole which I knew would trigger people. I will not use Linux as a desktop OS and 22 years later it still is not ready or mature as Windows XP was. I stand by my comment on that and I could go on pages and pages of technical reasons why it will never compete without a complete overhaul of it's userland programs and nasty glue that is called Xorg and the apis built on top of it. 

I hate Apple because I have to spend $3000 to get more than 1 monitor to function is the main reason. Yes my employer purchased a $2600 MacPro (PRO GRADE) and was told by Apple it was not good enough as that chip still didn't support DisplayLink. I got rid of it and got a cheap $900 Lenovo. Dual monitors at 1440P works with no displayLink weirdness. I refuse to be treated that way on principle. 

I know things are different these days than when my father used to drive, but he never liked automatics either,  he thought the same as you, unreliable and also, used to using his left hand to change gears, but we are talking 35 years since he drove an automatic, sadly he has passed away now, but he drove right up into his 80's, he did not like small cars either.  I don't know anyone who get OCD about a car, but then I don't really know anyone who get OCD over an operating system, ok, maybe one. Most people I know can cope with different operating system, some may take a bit longer to get used to them.  I know I am a bit more technicle that a lot of people, but I came from Windows to Mac Os and i am coping ok, but then I also have used different Linux desktops.

I know a couple of people that use Linux, for music, video editing and even one that uses it for graphic design, sure it take a bit of getting used to and the software is not as polished , but if you are willing to put something into it, then it is amazing what you can do with Linux. Myself, I have Mint on a laptop that is used for basic stuff, I also have Mint on a second drive on my PC, but  again only for basic stuff,  i was going to use it instead of Windows, but I just don't have the patience these days.  That is why I went for a Mac, the software I use is available for the Mac and this Mac mini M2 pro is  pretty powerful, more so than my PC and uses less energy than my PC. To update my PcC, Io would have to get something like a Ryzen r9, which costs a pretty penny, would not really add that much to my PC and still use a load of energy compared to this Mac.

Not sure why it is costing $3000 to get more than one monitor to function. I suppose it depends on your Mac, but on this Mac mini, I have two monitors, one via the HDMI and one running of  USB to HDMI cable/.

Apple is not perfect and to be honest It has taken me a long time to change to a MAc, mainly because I have seen problems other people have had with older Macs, but looking at the specs of the Mac mini and what it can do, plus the size and no mucking around with it.. I thought it was a better thing to go for than update my PC

 

[sinetheo]

On 23/04/2023 at 02:52, Nick H. said:

Since this thread is about Windows 11, I would appreciate it if you could PM me your pages of technical reasons about how Linux is not as mature as Windows XP. I've been using Mint daily for the past few years and I don't see what I'm missing. In fact, it appears to be more stable than my Windows 10 installation at the moment.

You asked for it you got it ... Xorg is a protocol with a 1980s architecture designed for Smart terminals and one big gigantic non networked mainframe which security was not a consideration. The gui stuff was added later. Things like font rasterization, graphics, and access to hardware and sound go through font servers and sound servers in a weird client/server combo on the same machine with terrible latency and bugs.

Meanwhile MacOSX and Windows Vista and later use hardware accelerated gui operations with a driver to interact with the hardware directly with postscript rendering for pixel perfect and RGB accurate representation. Windows went away from postscript with it's own format but it is based off the same principle. It is why Adobe Photoshop can't be ported to Xorg and desktop publishers who aren't color blind use Windows/MacOSX. Windows XP is more primptive but does have pixel RGB color accuracy and postscript pixel perfection so what you see on the screen represents exactly what is printed out. Because MacOSX/Windows has APIs built for an actual desktop not a protocol for terminals it has features built in like an action or notification center, taskbar features, etc. Linux has these baked in with all different implementations and each program has to support them. For example not every gui program supports Cinnamons features for notifications or Elementry's MacOS like styling and full integration. 

You don't need font servers, sound servers, and other weird arounds on any other platform and with WDDM and the Apple equilivent  (quartz I believe but I could be wrong) I have smooth scroll on my 165 hz 1440p panels and fluid video and no chops. On Mint you get a chop chop chop scrolling down or up which gave me OCD and was unusable. I also get 3d accelerated graphics outside of smooth scroll which Linux can't do because Xorg isn't designed for it. 

I tried Fedora Cinnamon last summer for the first time in 11 years and as soon as my pc fell asleep and woke back up my fonts in Firefox were garbled due to a bug in the display driver and or font server. Yep it was just as horrible as it was 11 years ago and nothing improved. I gave up a decade ago on Linux Fanboyism and decided to grow up as work needed to get done and Windows 7 was gorgeous

[Arceles]

On 23/04/2023 at 15:26, sinetheo said:

You don't need font servers, sound servers, and other weird arounds on any other platform and with WDDM and the Apple equilivent  (quartz I believe but I could be wrong) I have smooth scroll on my 165 hz 1440p panels and fluid video and no chops. On Mint you get a chop chop chop scrolling down or up which gave me OCD and was unusable. I also get 3d accelerated graphics outside of smooth scroll which Linux can't do because Xorg isn't designed for it. 

I tried Fedora Cinnamon last summer for the first time in 11 years and as soon as my pc fell asleep and woke back up my fonts in Firefox were garbled due to a bug in the display driver and or font server. Yep it was just as horrible as it was 11 years ago and nothing improved. I gave up a decade ago on Linux Fanboyism and decided to grow up as work needed to get done and Windows 7 was gorgeous

What the hell are you talking about? I'm right now playing redout 2 and apex legends at 144 Hz with variable sync through display port in my 7900xtx and do not let me start with fonts and hw acceleration. Your experience is so limited that it is baffling.

[sinetheo]

On 23/04/2023 at 23:35, Arceles said:

What the hell are you talking about? I'm right now playing redout 2 and apex legends at 144 Hz with variable sync through display port in my 7900xtx and do not let me start with fonts and hw acceleration. Your experience is so limited that it is baffling.

It's not using Xorg. It has it's own framebuffer. X11 apps can't support hardware based font rendering or smooth scroll. There is no wddm gpu scheduling support. Your ignorance is what is showing as I used it 22 years ago and know a lot more on what I am talking about. The Linux fanboys do not other than tie their ego to a piece of software. Have fun with your buggs and choppy gui experience 

[adrynalyne]

On 23/04/2023 at 14:26, sinetheo said:

You asked for it you got it ... Xorg is a protocol with a 1980s architecture designed for Smart terminals and one big gigantic non networked mainframe which security was not a consideration. The gui stuff was added later. Things like font rasterization, graphics, and access to hardware and sound go through font servers and sound servers in a weird client/server combo on the same machine with terrible latency and bugs.

Meanwhile MacOSX and Windows Vista and later use hardware accelerated gui operations with a driver to interact with the hardware directly with postscript rendering for pixel perfect and RGB accurate representation. Windows went away from postscript with it's own format but it is based off the same principle. It is why Adobe Photoshop can't be ported to Xorg and desktop publishers who aren't color blind use Windows/MacOSX. Windows XP is more primptive but does have pixel RGB color accuracy and postscript pixel perfection so what you see on the screen represents exactly what is printed out. Because MacOSX/Windows has APIs built for an actual desktop not a protocol for terminals it has features built in like an action or notification center, taskbar features, etc. Linux has these baked in with all different implementations and each program has to support them. For example not every gui program supports Cinnamons features for notifications or Elementry's MacOS like styling and full integration. 

You don't need font servers, sound servers, and other weird arounds on any other platform and with WDDM and the Apple equilivent  (quartz I believe but I could be wrong) I have smooth scroll on my 165 hz 1440p panels and fluid video and no chops. On Mint you get a chop chop chop scrolling down or up which gave me OCD and was unusable. I also get 3d accelerated graphics outside of smooth scroll which Linux can't do because Xorg isn't designed for it. 

I tried Fedora Cinnamon last summer for the first time in 11 years and as soon as my pc fell asleep and woke back up my fonts in Firefox were garbled due to a bug in the display driver and or font server. Yep it was just as horrible as it was 11 years ago and nothing improved. I gave up a decade ago on Linux Fanboyism and decided to grow up as work needed to get done and Windows 7 was gorgeous

They asked for a PM…🤦‍♂️

[Arceles]

On 24/04/2023 at 01:04, sinetheo said:

It's not using Xorg. It has it's own framebuffer. X11 apps can't support hardware based font rendering or smooth scroll. There is no wddm gpu scheduling support. Your ignorance is what is showing as I used it 22 years ago and know a lot more on what I am talking about. The Linux fanboys do not other than tie their ego to a piece of software. Have fun with your buggs and choppy gui experience 

Xorg is going out

Again, your experience is outdated.

[sinetheo]

On 24/04/2023 at 10:00, Arceles said:

Xorg is going out

Again, your experience is outdated.

Wayland was supposed to take over in 2009 and it still hasn't. It won't. For example Discord uses a security vulnerability in Xorg to share hotkeys. The vulnerability is one user can see keyboard and mouse events to others. Code uses these apis to accomplish this. That is one example. Wayland doesn't have driver support that I am aware of and yes my knowledge is very old. I think Fedora Cinnamon where I had the fonts bug may have even ran Wayland.

I am not dissing Linux for it's uses. With Server grade supported hardware you have the support built in. I personally prefer FreeBSD as they do not include half baked drivers and they work or they do not and it is more simplistic and easier to config without excess daemons. 

I use Pfsense vms for my routers in Hyper-v and I use WSl or a Vm for either OS or at work I have Azure and AWS for instances. 

[Arceles]

On 24/04/2023 at 18:03, sinetheo said:

Wayland was supposed to take over in 2009 and it still hasn't. It won't. For example Discord uses a security vulnerability in Xorg to share hotkeys. The vulnerability is one user can see keyboard and mouse events to others. Code uses these apis to accomplish this. That is one example. Wayland doesn't have driver support that I am aware of and yes my knowledge is very old. I think Fedora Cinnamon where I had the fonts bug may have even ran Wayland.

I am not dissing Linux for it's uses. With Server grade supported hardware you have the support built in. I personally prefer FreeBSD as they do not include half baked drivers and they work or they do not and it is more simplistic and easier to config without excess daemons. 

I use Pfsense vms for my routers in Hyper-v and I use WSl or a Vm for either OS or at work I have Azure and AWS for instances. 

You can say much about your experience and this is still the internet.

I shared a link in regards about how Xorg is well already on its way out and how basically it dismisses your claims regarding refresh rate issues in monitors as well as hw accelerated video in modern linux distributions.

In your words these issues were the things that make linux not viable, but clearly, your experience was outdated and now you resort to include bugs from 3rd party programs like discord, which leads me to think that you are just a windows fanboy trying to blame linux for the demise of modern windows releases.

[cooky560 Veteran]

The main reason that Linux hasn't had mainstream adoption is simple, outside of the tech world, your average user doesn't care.

They buy their phone from a phone shop, they buy their laptop from wherever that comes from (usually either a walmart like store that sells pcs, or a vendor that mainly offers prebuilds and laptops) with windows, and they leave it that way, most the time they aren't even aware of the level of customisation within Windows, never mind installing another OS.

Meanwhile inside the tech world:

While many of us want Linux to succeed (and given the direction Windows has gone in since Windows 7, I'm fast joining that camp) many of us also have specific needs that only Windows covers

 

Windows struggled to get adoption in it's early days, but now it has close to full market saturation, Linux will need to do everything windows does, and better to gain more acceptance, and then it will also need OEMs to stop shipping windows to the average consumer.

Linux also needs significant more backing from Hardware makers, many devices have drivers for Windows, perhaps on a good day Windows and OSX, while comparatively few offer drivers for Linux. While the Linux community is great at making open source drivers, many users will only install a driver from the manufacturer, as this is good security practice.

[sinetheo]

On 24/04/2023 at 22:37, Arceles said:

You can say much about your experience and this is still the internet.

I shared a link in regards about how Xorg is well already on its way out and how basically it dismisses your claims regarding refresh rate issues in monitors as well as hw accelerated video in modern linux distributions.

In your words these issues were the things that make linux not viable, but clearly, your experience was outdated and now you resort to include bugs from 3rd party programs like discord, which leads me to think that you are just a windows fanboy trying to blame linux for the demise of modern windows releases.

Reread my post. I was waiting for Wayland when Bush was still president. Call me cynical after 14 years it's still going to be ready any day now next to the year of the Linux desktop from 1999 on slashdot.org. I pay money for Windows as it's a superior desktop operating system compared to Linux.

Now since I unplugged thanks to Windows 7 finally being something I find the concept weird to run anything but Windows on a PC. Fun wise unless you are a nerd Android or IOS are better. Work wise Microsoft Excel, Adobe PDF, and any app that is specialized for their career QuickBooks, AutoCad, great plains accounting etc,  are superior and what most people use a PC for.

Linux has its uses but like a motorcycle vs a car vs a truck vs a jeep all have their different uses.

[Max1955]

I replied before, stating I upgraded one of my computers to Windows 11 Pro immediately. Since then, I have switched to Ghost Spectre Windows 11 Pro Compact. It does not have all the extras in Windows 11 I never used. It requires much less memory, disk space and runs much faster. I can go from powered off to being able to start using the computer in about 45 seconds or less.

[ad47uk]

On 11/07/2023 at 02:15, Max1955 said:

I replied before, stating I upgraded one of my computers to Windows 11 Pro immediately. Since then, I have switched to Ghost Spectre Windows 11 Pro Compact. It does not have all the extras in Windows 11 I never used. It requires much less memory, disk space and runs much faster. I can go from powered off to being able to start using the computer in about 45 seconds or less.

My old 6-year-old AMD Ryzen 7 can boot standard Windows 10 Pro in less than 45 seconds.  Going by what you are saying, Windows 11 is slower to boot up unless your computer is very low powered. My Mac mini boots in even less time.