Gig over Cat 5 - put to bed thread.

[+BudMan MVC]

I see it all the time all over the place, people saying you need 5e for gig if not 6, etc...  I finally got fed up with the FUD, even after linking to the ieee standard where it clearly states gig over Cat 5.. They came back with multiple links saying only 100 over cat 5..

So I dug through my junk, and what do you know - found an old like 25 foot cat 5 patch cable.. The clips even broken off the ends.. But still works - and what do you know, there you go doing 2.5ge over old ###### cat 5 patch cable..

So anyone telling you need 5e to do gig, its FUD..  Please do not spread it, nobody should be still running 5 and not 5e for patch cables, but come on the spec came out for gig before 5e was even thing.  And most places had just put in shiny new Cat 5 cable - do you really think they were going to rip it all out to put in 5e so they could run gig.. A cat 5 cable that is not all busted up and actually met specs for 5 will for sure run gig up to the spec of 100m, maybe not 2.5 over that distance?  But It clearly can do 2.5ge over a 25 ft patch cable..

Not sure why I still had that ###### old cable, with clips even broken off But I did.  So there you go - the FUD put to bed

[nekrosoft13]

I'm running gig over older (non category cable) that builder used to run phone lines though the house.

basement to upstairs just fine, probably wouldn't handle 2.5Gbe, haven't tried that yet.

 

Its one of those to do projects to run a better cable from basement to upstairs...

[bikeman25]

Bought 50Ft Cat6A  flat cable to run from Upstairs to Downstairs,  so far working fine with my Pluggable 2.5gig usb ethernet adapter for Main Gaming Desktop.      as needed a cable that would fit under door, and be slim along the little edge next to the stairs, and reach the Comcast Gateway just fine...so far so good

 

[kowcop]

I believe Cat5 was always able to do gigabit or higher, but the cable suffered more over significant lengths. If memory serves me right, Cat5 could do gigabit up to 100m. Cat 5E and above were better at higher speeds over longer lengths

[+BudMan MVC]

Yeah 100m is the length that 5 is rated for gig, same with 5e..  Just tired of hearing the nonsense that you need 5e some people on  net say say 6.. I mean today I don't think you could buy 5.. But just got tired of yet another person posting that 5 cam only do 100.  If you have some old cat 5 cable that can not do gig, its broken, or was never actually certified as 5..

I don't think it is certified to do 2.5 up too 100m, have to pull up that spec.. If memory serves it something like 60 meters or something.

 

[Jaybonaut]

Do they even make 5 anymore?  Cat 8 has been around a good while at this point.

[+BudMan MVC]

I doubt they make it anymore - but doesn't mean there isn't plenty still about.  I found it in my drawer   Might even have a few others around here - I have no idea why I even kept that cable, the ends are missing the clips.  Only thing I can think of why is don't have many 25 ft patches.. Figured I could always redo the ends or something, or no clips doesn't mean it wont work - it just might not stay in if the cable is touched, etc.

But its quite possible someone's house has cat 5 in the walls, and not 5e for example..

Shoot I haven't looked maybe you can buy boxes of it still, hopefully for a good price, etc.

I don't know why a specific post got me thinking - hmm let me see if I have old cat 5 about.. It's not like don't see the nonsense all over the net.  Maybe the fact that even after posting a link to the spec from ieee that gig is supported on normal 5 that he came back with like 3 links trying to say it only support 100.. Even though 2 of them while mention 100, also state that it can do gig if you actually read the full page linked too, etc.

This is one of the examples of misinformation that just keeps spreading, even though 2 seconds of looking at the spec actually shows that statement is nonsense.   Also I was around and working in the field when gig came out, so know for a freaking fact gig works fine over 5 Since there was no such thing as 5e at the time we started putting in gig.  Mind you it at first it was only to a few of the file servers, while most of the clients were still only 10mbps..  But it was slick as ###### at the time.. Now shoot 2.5ge is starting to bug me, and would love to go to 10.. But just can not justify the cost currently - when my nas drives can only do 270ish MBps anyway..  And I just put them in.. So what would be the point of 5 or 10ge when my disks would become the bottleneck. Sure if I would of went raid on them they would of been able to do more - but after space, not speed..  I replaced a 3x4TB raid 0 with 1 18TB, and then a standalone 8 with another 18..

[Ready2018]

On 31/01/2023 at 20:17, BudMan said:

I see it all the time all over the place, people saying you need 5e for gig if not 6, etc...  I finally got fed up with the FUD, even after linking to the ieee standard where it clearly states gig over Cat 5.. They came back with multiple links saying only 100 over cat 5..

So I dug through my junk, and what do you know - found an old like 25 foot cat 5 patch cable.. The clips even broken off the ends.. But still works - and what do you know, there you go doing 2.5ge over old ###### cat 5 patch cable..

So anyone telling you need 5e to do gig, its FUD..  Please do not spread it, nobody should be still running 5 and not 5e for patch cables, but come on the spec came out for gig before 5e was even thing.  And most places had just put in shiny new Cat 5 cable - do you really think they were going to rip it all out to put in 5e so they could run gig.. A cat 5 cable that is not all busted up and actually met specs for 5 will for sure run gig up to the spec of 100m, maybe not 2.5 over that distance?  But It clearly can do 2.5ge over a 25 ft patch cable..

Not sure why I still had that ###### old cable, with clips even broken off But I did.  So there you go - the FUD put to bed

I take it you did more than just a few speed tests right? So how did you test the latency, packet collisions, re-transmissions? Most important, how did all of this compare to using CAT 6 cables?

[+BudMan MVC]

You want me to compare the latency of less than 1 ms.. Really?  There was no packet loss, there was no retrans..  You think what a cat 6 will get me what 2.3705Gbps ?

Here you go - does this satisfy your curiosity?

1000 pings, 1 every 1/2 second.. Average is 1/2 ms..  No loss packets.. 

You think what cat 6 would be .4ms average?  I fired up wireshark while doing another test - ZERO retrans..

Not sure what you think a cable that is certified to do gig vs another cable that is certified to do more than gig is going to get you?  You think the electrons are going to flow faster?  You think there is going to be loss of packets? Where would have to do retrans? 

Iperf test will report if there is loss, it will report on retrans, etc.

I can repeat this test with a cat 6 patch if you want - but there is going to be no difference.. I know because that is what is normal cable between these devices - and that speed 2.37 is what I normally see on any iperf test I do..

[Ready2018]

On 01/02/2023 at 14:04, BudMan said:

You want me to compare the latency of less than 1 ms.. Really?  There was no packet loss, there was no retrans..  You think what a cat 6 will get me what 2.3705Gbps ?

Here you go - does this satisfy your curiosity?

1000 pings, 1 every 1/2 second.. Average is 1/2 ms..  No loss packets.. 

You think what cat 6 would be .4ms average?  I fired up wireshark while doing another test - ZERO retrans..

Not sure what you think a cable that is certified to do gig vs another cable that is certified to do more than gig is going to get you?  You think the electrons are going to flow faster?  You think there is going to be loss of packets? Where would have to do retrans? 

Iperf test will report if there is loss, it will report on retrans, etc.

I can repeat this test with a cat 6 patch if you want - but there is going to be no difference.. I know because that is what is normal cable between these devices - and that speed 2.37 is what I normally see on any iperf test I do..

You may have taken my reply out of context, I was trying to give you ways to add substance to your post rather than just a couple of speed tests, there are plenty of sites that would pull you apart for only posting a speed test. It would make a good article on this website if you can collate all the data (maybe a good idea to pitch that to those  in charge of the site). 

[+BudMan MVC]

haha - yeah maybe I did take that the wrong way.  But the actual point is the SPEC from ieee clearly states that cat 5 can do gig.. There should be no need to validate it in the first place

Since gig was being used before there was even 5e, what do these people think was going on - do they think it was only doing 500mbps ??  Even though ieee said it can do gig.  How this nonsense info even got started is beyond me...  Someone reads some FUD somewhere and then spreads it, and then the next guy reads it and spreads it more and more.. And then it becomes true well because there are these sites on the internet that says it is

 

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/798775

Purpose:

The purpose of this project is to extend the 802.3 protocol to provide 1000 Mb/s operation over installed Category 5 generic facilities balanced copper cabling.

 

Date of Publication: 26 July 1999

 

[shockz]

The reason why people harp on cat5 over 5e/6 for gig speeds is mostly long-distance runs. An old Cat5 cable can do a gig (i didn't know people had debates about this), but the longer you go, the less you get, as with any cable, but you really start to see gig limitations on an old cat5 cable. That was the hot topic back in the day when we'd be deploying them. I remember long nights as an intern this being a hot topic. 5e/6 tended to more forgiving for longer runs when people were on budgets with data closet locations. Not to mention 6 does future proof somewhat for longer runs with post 1gig speeds. 

100m maybe on paper, but that's not what I've saw in deployments, particularly in buildings with all sorts of equipment running with the classic electrical buzzes that make you feel like you'll get shocked by just breathing near it, especially if you're limited to a conduit that has all sorts of other things jam packed in it.

So from my view, a simple patch cable from your network port to your computer is going to get a gig fine, but if you're planning on wiring something up that isn't a residential house, that's probably where the debate ensues.

Penny pinchers vs engineers, that was quite common when 6 was still more way more expensive than 5/5e.

I haven't saw Cat 5 cable in years in residential, 5e is still out there, but by far 6 is what you're seeing people have at home probably the last 5 years.

[+BudMan MVC]

We had plenty of runs near the 300ft mark - never saw a problem... Again lets go back to the "SPEC" which is 100 Meters..

If you had issues at distance - then you had problems with the wiring, or where you patched, etc. 

And this was production planet with lots of EM Noise from heavy machinery..  But then again we actually ran the cable correctly and didn't have billy bob run some cable.. 

If you want to say hey at 100m I saw problems on 5.. Ok I won't say you didn't, etc.  But WTF does that have to do with a user saying they are not getting gig, and some idiot chimes in saying you need cat 6 to get gig.. Unless this is some sort of Bill Gates type of house - there isn't going to be a run anywhere close to 100m in it..  I would be surprise if there is even a 100 ft run.. I have one of those in my attic.. The house isn't 100 ft wide where do the run from the garage to the back guest room... But it was easier to just buy a 100ft premade cable for the run..  If would ran it correctly it would of been more like 70 ft - maybe..  But I was lazy and just bought some jacks where you plug in the cable in the back.

Lazy sure - but didn't have to worry about terminating the cable   A extra 30 ft of cable isn't going to be a problem.. But my ###### termination skills sure could of been

 

 

 

 

[LaP]

You're just having a good cable. It's more important to have a good cable than anything else and shielded cat 6 tends to be made with quality in mind as it's made to be run thru walls and what not in a corporate building and target higher speed. But there's plenty of quality cat 5 cables out there. This said you have a lot of bad quality ones. I had to replace the standard cat 5 cable coming with my XBox 360 cause it could not do more than 10MB/S. My internet speed was limited to 10MB/S and i could not figure out why so decided to switch the cable and voilà.

Edited February 1, 2023 by LaP

[shockz]

On 01/02/2023 at 11:21, BudMan said:

We had plenty of runs near the 300ft mark - never saw a problem... Again lets go back to the "SPEC" which is 100 Meters..

If you had issues at distance - then you had problems with the wiring, or where you patched, etc. 

And this was production planet with lots of EM Noise from heavy machinery..  But then again we actually ran the cable correctly and didn't have billy bob run some cable.. 

If you want to say hey at 100m I saw problems on 5.. Ok I won't say you didn't, etc.  But WTF does that have to do with a user saying they are not getting gig, and some idiot chimes in saying you need cat 6 to get gig.. Unless this is some sort of Bill Gates type of house - there isn't going to be a run anywhere close to 100m in it..  I would be surprise if there is even a 100 ft run.. I have one of those in my attic.. The house isn't 100 ft wide where do the run from the garage to the back guest room... But it was easier to just buy a 100ft premade cable for the run..  If would ran it correctly it would of been more like 70 ft - maybe..  But I was lazy and just bought some jacks where you plug in the cable in the back.

I'm not sure where people are getting the idea at cat5 can't do a gig with a simple connection from a pc to a router in a house, that's just silly. You can get 2.5 if you're close to the switch.

I'm not some billy bob running cable, ran it for years in another life, and if someone is asking about upgrading their ancient infrastructure in a corporate building that has runs all over that's only 10/100 to 1gig and using CAT5 (without the E) for production, I'd be hesitant on signing off on that without them signing a disclaimer saying 1gig speeds aren't guaranteed with current wiring, just from first hand experience, not to mention the actual certified spec. You'll see degradation when you're getting close to 100 meters if you're in a high interference environment. All terminated correctly, from the wall jack, to the switch port, and everywhere in between. 

There are plenty of mom and pop shops and small biz finally getting 1gig internet, but using 10/100 gear, so this isn't an unlikely situation. I'd be telling them to replace their wiring if they're going to be doing longer runs and don't have at least 5e, just after they ask about the old tired 1gig enterprise switch they found on ebay from some datacenter that finally tossed their long retired gear.

Edited February 1, 2023 by shockz

[+BudMan MVC]

On 01/02/2023 at 13:10, shockz said:

finally getting 1gig internet, but using 10/100 gear

Yeah that is quite possible and more likely a problem then their cable can not do gig

The thread in question that this came up in was about a raspberry pi even.. Which they didn't state what version of the pi, its quite possible it didn't even have a gig interface

[tiagosilva29]

On 01/02/2023 at 12:20, BudMan said:

I found it in my drawer

That is nothing to be proud of.

[adrynalyne]

On 01/02/2023 at 15:14, tiagosilva29 said:

That is nothing to be proud of.

drawer, not drawers.

[tiagosilva29]

On 01/02/2023 at 22:17, adrynalyne said:

drawer, not drawers.

¿Why not both?

[+Matthew S. Subscriber²]

On 01/02/2023 at 17:17, adrynalyne said:

drawer, not drawers.

So you sayin' he's got Coax in his drawers instead?

[adrynalyne]

On 01/02/2023 at 16:26, Matthew S. said:

So you sayin' he's got Coax in his drawers instead?

🍆