Ohio Train disaster

[+primortal Subscriber²]

 

[dead.cell]

On 14/03/2023 at 15:15, primortal said:

 

I've been moving into a new place so I haven't had much time to post on this, but last I heard, there was rumor of a recording or documentation somewhere showing NS deliberately ignored inspections at that, which doesn't surprise me. It still astounds me the EPA was using their test data as a means to "clear" the area as safe too.

I say this because it looks like labor unions are now complaining that the people who are cleaning up this mess are falling ill too.

Labor unions say East Palestine cleanup site workers are falling ill
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/labor-unions-say-east-palestine-cleanup-site-workers-are-falling-ill/ar-AA1874pn

I was at least happy to see what looks like bipartisan measures being pushed to maybe push for some additional regulation here as well.

[FloatingFatMan]

On 15/03/2023 at 02:16, dead.cell said:

I've been moving into a new place so I haven't had much time to post on this, but last I heard, there was rumor of a recording or documentation somewhere showing NS deliberately ignored inspections at that, which doesn't surprise me. It still astounds me the EPA was using their test data as a means to "clear" the area as safe too.

I say this because it looks like labor unions are now complaining that the people who are cleaning up this mess are falling ill too.

Labor unions say East Palestine cleanup site workers are falling ill
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/labor-unions-say-east-palestine-cleanup-site-workers-are-falling-ill/ar-AA1874pn

I was at least happy to see what looks like bipartisan measures being pushed to maybe push for some additional regulation here as well.

One begins to wonder if the contents of those rail cars actually matches the labels...

 

[daniel_rh]

The worrisome thing is the risk of getting cancer because of these chemicals in a long term, not only for the city but all the areas where the wind moves the contaminated air. It can be something that probably will go beyond the US borders.

[+Matthew S. Subscriber²]

On 15/03/2023 at 10:52, daniel_rh said:

The worrisome thing is the risk of getting cancer because of these chemicals in a long term, not only for the city but all the areas where the wind moves the contaminated air. It can be something that probably will go beyond the US borders.

It actually did, there were elevated levels detected in Southern Ontario and parts of Manitoba.

[FloatingFatMan]

On 15/03/2023 at 14:52, daniel_rh said:

The worrisome thing is the risk of getting cancer because of these chemicals in a long term, not only for the city but all the areas where the wind moves the contaminated air. It can be something that probably will go beyond the US borders.

Of the chemicals spilled, only vinyl chloride is a human carcinogen, and that dissolves and disperses in the atmosphere VERY quickly so if people get cancers that are linked to this incident, there's a good chance those containers weren't labelled correctly.

Now don't get me wrong, vinyl chloride is bloody nasty stuff, but you need to almost get it straight in the face for it to screw you over...

Source, I'm NOT a chemist, but I used to work for an environmental analysis and cleanup company that specialised in brownfield sites and you tend to pick up a good chunk of chemistry when you're working day to day with a large number of chemists that specialised in cleaning spills!

[dead.cell]

On 15/03/2023 at 13:19, FloatingFatMan said:

Of the chemicals spilled, only vinyl chloride is a human carcinogen, and that dissolves and disperses in the atmosphere VERY quickly so if people get cancers that are linked to this incident, there's a good chance those containers weren't labelled correctly.

Now don't get me wrong, vinyl chloride is bloody nasty stuff, but you need to almost get it straight in the face for it to screw you over...

Source, I'm NOT a chemist, but I used to work for an environmental analysis and cleanup company that specialised in brownfield sites and you tend to pick up a good chunk of chemistry when you're working day to day with a large number of chemists that specialised in cleaning spills!

Well, doesn't vinyl chloride give off phosgene when burned?

The effects from chronic exposure seem to be more worrisome than just being exposed once... It's also worth noting that some of the people exhibiting serious respiratory issues seems in-line with what's possible based on CDC data. And again, like you said, this is without knowing all the other effects of the chemicals aboard the train.

Are any future health effects likely to occur?
A single small exposure from which a person recovers quickly is not likely to cause delayed or long-term effects. After a serious exposure, some symptoms may take a few days to develop. Some persons who have had serious exposures have developed permanent breathing difficulty and tend to develop lung infections easily.
https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/MMG/MMGDetails.aspx?mmgid=1201&toxid=182

[FloatingFatMan]

On 15/03/2023 at 18:43, dead.cell said:

Well, doesn't vinyl chloride give off phosgene when burned?

The effects from chronic exposure seem to be more worrisome than just being exposed once... It's also worth noting that some of the people exhibiting serious respiratory issues seems in-line with what's possible based on CDC data. And again, like you said, this is without knowing all the other effects of the chemicals aboard the train.

Are any future health effects likely to occur?
A single small exposure from which a person recovers quickly is not likely to cause delayed or long-term effects. After a serious exposure, some symptoms may take a few days to develop. Some persons who have had serious exposures have developed permanent breathing difficulty and tend to develop lung infections easily.
https://wwwn.cdc.gov/TSP/MMG/MMGDetails.aspx?mmgid=1201&toxid=182

Phosgene is indeed given off when you burn vinyl chloride, but once again it's a volatile organic compound that breaks down in a few hours. I don't doubt for a minute that folks close to the incident are likely to have some short-term health issues from this incident, but the chances of long-term health problems are much much lower.  Not zero for sure, but not high either.

The big problem here is ignorance, but it's quite understandable ignorance.  Most people aren't educated in chemistry, not would you expect them to be.  If you tell someone that something is a volatile organic compound, their mind is going to go towards explosive, when in reality all it means is that it breaks down quickly... The media could help a lot here by actually explaining what the big scary technical words actually mean...

All that being said, the rail company are, IMO, totally liable for this and I hope it both costs them millions, and a few execs end up in jail.

Edited March 15, 2023 by FloatingFatMan

[hagjohn]

On 15/03/2023 at 14:51, FloatingFatMan said:

Phosgene is indeed given off when you burn vinyl chloride, but once again it's a volatile organic compound that breaks down in a few hours. I don't doubt for a minute that folks close to the incident are likely to have some short-term health issues from this incident, but the chances of long-term health problems are much much lower.  Not zero for sure, but not high either.

The big problem here is ignorance, but it's quite understandable ignorance.  Most people aren't educated in chemistry, not would you expect them to be.  If you tell someone that something is a volatile organic compound, their mind is going to go towards explosive, when in reality all it means is that it breaks down quickly... The media could help a lot here by actually explaining what the big scary technical words actually mean...

All that being said, the rail company are, IMO, totally liable for this and I hope it both costs them millions, and a few execs end up in jail.

It depends on ones biology and length and concentration of exposure. Many people, including kids were there for a long time breathing in who knows what.  I would have evacuated right away and if I had kids, I would have gotten out of there even quicker. There is no knowing what is going to happen to them.

 

Never ever think that people will lie to you about how clean the air or earth is. Look at the military and look at the twin towers. 

[dead.cell]

On 15/03/2023 at 14:34, hagjohn said:

It depends on ones biology and length and concentration of exposure. Many people, including kids were there for a long time breathing in who knows what.  I would have evacuated right away and if I had kids, I would have gotten out of there even quicker. There is no knowing what is going to happen to them.

 

Never ever think that people will lie to you about how clean the air or earth is. Look at the military and look at the twin towers. 

Dang, I was 100% with you... up until the end there, now I'm not so sure.

We gonna sit down and discuss building 7 or steel beams? And who is this hacker named 4chan? 🤔 

[hagjohn]

On 15/03/2023 at 16:32, dead.cell said:

Dang, I was 100% with you... up until the end there, now I'm not so sure.

We gonna sit down and discuss building 7 or steel beams? And who is this hacker named 4chan? 🤔 

Uh no. I'm talking about after the towers fell and the the gov't told the first responders and NYers that the air was safe to breathe. And of course we knew it wasn't and now we know it was not and they lied. This will happen to these people in Ohio.

[dead.cell]

On 15/03/2023 at 18:47, hagjohn said:

Uh no. I'm talking about after the towers fell and the the gov't told the first responders and NYers that the air was safe to breathe. And of course we knew it wasn't and now we know it was not and they lied. This will happen to these people in Ohio.

Thanks for the clarification. I was speaking in jest, mostly because of how a lot many things people will cite when talking about 9/11 lol. 

I'll have to dig in about that because it wasn't something I saw brought up much, but I was also in high school when it happened so there's that...