Atlas V: Boeing Starliner CFT (crewed flight test)

[DocM]

Shout out to Alabama Public Radio for publishing these NASA quotes,

https://www.apr.org/news/2024-06-22/nasa-delays-landing-of-the-problem-filled-starliner-capsule-until-july

>

Steve Stitch is NASA’s Manager of Commercial Spaceflight. He says not every problem on Starliner could be found during testing on the ground prior to flight.

“Perhaps we could have done different testing on the ground to characterize some of that ahead of time, we did a series of tests called the service module “hot fire” testing at the White Sands Test Facility as well. And now we're kind of working through learning about this vehicle and learning about it in a different way,” he said.

>

“You know, I stepped back and looked at Dragon and and SpaceX, and they were able to learn a lot about flying in space with their cargo program ahead of [Demo 2], you know, they had many cargo flights,” said Stitch. “They flew to learn and develop their system. And here we are now on our third flight, still learning.”

>

==========

About the 5  thrusters; the problem does look to be overheating. The one they disabled appears to be damaged and is only running at 8%. The others were stopped before damage, but others could  be damaged later.  The Band-Aid is changing their software limits, but it seems the thruster system needs a redesign. The still leaves several other issues.

I don't see how they can trust Starliner to bring Butch & Suni down. 

[+Biscuits Brown MVC]

I'm not sure the Starliner is coming back down - at least not as a capsule.  I do wonder if they have the ability to remotely undock and the thruster control to safely move away from the ISS and into a (destructive) re-entry.

[DocM]

On 24/06/2024 at 17:59, Biscuits Brown said:

I'm not sure the Starliner is coming back down - at least not as a capsule.  I do wonder if they have the ability to remotely undock and the thruster control to safely move away from the ISS and into a (destructive) re-entry.

 

Control really is the issue, isn't it? They had problems docking, son a troublesome  undocking isn't a stretch.

A scenario like this happened once before with Columbia, foam hitting the wing heat shield. NASA chose unwisely on that one, I hope they're more cautious this time.

[+Biscuits Brown MVC]

Yeah, good point however they can't just leave it in the docking port. One way or another, it has to separate and move away on its own power and that will require some degree of control. 

[DocM]

Of course, the question is will it have two people inside. I think that's a bad idea, and if they haven't called SpaceX to set up a contingency plan they need to.

They have four Crew Dragons now and one under construction (C213). Butch & Suni can safe haven at ISS while Starliner meets its fate, then they can make arrangements for a ride downhill.

The Starliner crew could  substitute for the mission specialists on August's Crew 9 and return in 6 months, or there could be two people on Axiom 4 who wait for their rides leaving two empty seats. 

We'll see.

[SteveL]

SpaceX bringing back two people launched on a Boeing vehicle (that alone cost billions more than the competitor's one) ? This is a PR nightmare and probably the end of Boeing as a space contractor. NASA will have to really bang their fists on the table to convince Boeing.

[+Biscuits Brown MVC]

On 24/06/2024 at 18:36, DocM said:

Of course, the question is will it have two people inside.

If they can't remotely undock then I don't see how they get it away from the ISS. We know they can remotely fire the thrusters but can it undock?

[bguy_1986]

I assume they will need SpaceX suits, or will the Boeing suits be compatible?

[DocM]

On 25/06/2024 at 12:56, bguy_1986 said:

I assume they will need SpaceX suits, or will the Boeing suits be compatible?

 

Unfortunately NASA did not put a standard umbilical port in the requirements for commercial crew. As such, SpaceX and Boeing rolled their own. The SpaceX umbilical is attached to the seat, and plugs into a single port on the right upper thigh of their suits. Easy access for putting on the inevitable EVA backpack and plugging it in. Boeing attaches their umbilical at several points on the thorax. 

Bottom line, a SpaceX rescue mission would involve getting the measurements of Butch and Suni and digging through their suit supply for an near match. The good thing is, SpaceX's lightweight suit and helmet can fit into a sack not much larger thana bowling bag. 

 

[anthdci]

On 25/06/2024 at 18:52, DocM said:

 

Unfortunately NASA did not put a standard umbilical port in the requirements for commercial crew. As such, SpaceX and Boeing rolled their own. The SpaceX umbilical is attached to the seat, and plugs into a single port on the right upper thigh of their suits. Easy access for putting on the inevitable EVA backpack and plugging it in. Boeing attaches their umbilical at several points on the thorax. 

Bottom line, a SpaceX rescue mission would involve getting the measurements of Butch and Suni and digging through their suit supply for an near match. The good thing is, SpaceX's lightweight suit and helmet can fit into a sack not much larger thana bowling bag. 

 

this sounds like its becoming more and more like a rescue mission on the cards

[DocM]

A bit on the decline of Boeing 

 

[DocM]

Here's the text that was cut off,

 

"Boeing used to be a great company dominated by engineers. The people at the top were engineers as the their core foundation and education.

The downfall of the company began a few decades ago when the leadership was captured by finance guys. The current CEO has a degree in accounting.

Ever since then, Boeing has been in a slow decline."

 

 

>

 

Edited June 25 by DocM

[DocM]

/sigh...

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/28/science/nasa-boeing-starliner-mission-90-days-scn/index.html

"Boeing Starliner spacecraft could wait months before return, but officials say astronauts aren’t stranded

>

[...] Steve Stich, NASA’s Commercial Crew Program manager, said Friday that the space agency is considering extending the maximum length of Starliner’s mission from 45 days to 90 days. And there is no firm return date on the horizon.

>

Stich and Mark Nappi, vice president and program manager of the Commercial Crew Program for Boeing, also said Friday that engineers are still not yet certain about the root cause behind the Starliner’s problems.

>"

[IsItPluggedIn]

The wording in their statements has been very alarming, im not sure it is as bad as they have been making it seem.

NASA is safety focuses with their commercial partners. Especially with Boeing after all their issues.

Nobody wants to make the call on bringing them home on Starliner if they dont know what caused the issues. 

So they keep pushing out the date to do more "testing", at some point they are going to need to decide if its safe without knowing the root cause.

With the information they have currently provided, I think they will bring them back on Starliner to save Boeing the humiliation.

I dont think its the right decision, they should start making the SpaceX suits now, even if its just a backup.

[DocM]

On 02/07/2024 at 19:52, IsItPluggedIn said:

With the information they have currently provided, I think they will bring them back on Starliner to save Boeing the humiliation.

 

Unfortunately true, but this clusterfrack has gone on so long humiliation was assured long ago. 

 

On 02/07/2024 at 19:52, IsItPluggedIn said:

I dont think its the right decision, they should start making the SpaceX suits now, even if its just a backup.

Bingo!

To put an exclamation point on it, a big part of this long extension is NASA taking the propulsion system to White Sands for the extended testing Boeing and Aerojet Rocketdyne should have done. 

[DocM]

Still no Starliner return date. 

Confirmed: NASA and SpaceX are studying a 2-person Crew 9 launch with 2 extra IVA suit packs. The first clue was NASA and SpaceX signing a Commercial Crew contract to study emergency procedures. This  dropped a couple weeks ago.

If the contingency is necessary, Starliner would return on its own - meeting whatever fate the rocket gods have planned for it.

The schedule for Crew 9 says August. Presumably, Butch & Suni stay as replacement mission specialists during Crew 9, then return.

Normally these missions last 6 months but under the current circumstances, whoinhell knows? This clusterfrack of a mission has more twists and turns than  the Nürburgring

Ars Technica's Eric Berger is coming out with a new book, Reentry, which will in part go into the whole Starliner mess. Should be fascinating.

 

 

[anthdci]

On 25/07/2024 at 21:57, DocM said:

Still no Starliner return date. 

Confirmed: NASA and SpaceX are studying a 2-person Crew 9 launch with 2 extra IVA suit packs. The first clue was NASA and SpaceX signing a Commercial Crew contract to study emergency procedures. This  dropped a couple weeks ago.

If the contingency is necessary, Starliner would return on its own - meeting whatever fate the rocket gods have planned for it.

The schedule for Crew 9 says August. Presumably, Butch & Suni stay as replacement mission specialists during Crew 9, then return.

Normally these missions last 6 months but under the current circumstances, whoinhell knows? This clusterfrack of a mission has more twists and turns than  the Nürburgring

Ars Technica's Eric Berger is coming out with a new book, Reentry, which will in part go into the whole Starliner mess. Should be fascinating.

 

 

I give it 5 years before there is a movie made about this whole mess. 

[DocM]

On 26/07/2024 at 15:40, anthdci said:

I give it 5 years before there is a movie made about this whole mess. 

 

It could be a sequel to "Marooned," or it could be part of a general hit-movie about Boeing including the 737 Max and the other failures. 

"Unsafe At Any Altitude"

Meanwhile, back at the NASA/Boeing teleconference...

https://spacenews.com/more-thruster-tests-for-starliner-before-return/

"While NASA has not set a date for Starliner’s return, Stich said they are looking at options through Aug. 19 or 20 for its undocking. That would free up a docking port for the launch of Crew-9 mission on a SpaceX Crew Dragon, allowing for a “direct” handover, or overlap, with Crew-8 before it departs. He said that handover needs to be done by about Sept. 11 to avoid conflicting with a separate Soyuz spacecraft handover.

NASA, he added, continues to look at contingency options that could involve the use of Crew Dragon to bring back Williams and Wilmore from the station rather than Starliner, but that currently he expects them to return on Starliner."

Nice barn door he left himself to drive through....

 

[DocM]

In July 2023 CNBC reported. Boeing losses from Starliner totaled $1.5 billion, this on a $4.2 billion contract. 

Boeing has filed SEC papers noting they've taken another loss of $125 million, this one related to the CFT flight which has not yet ended.

A few years ago they were involved in a DARP project called the SX-1 Phantom Express, a contract they won. Technical evaluations were good, but at the last minute Boeing dropped out . 

 

[DocM]

Not looking good for Starliner CFT. 

Yesterday Boeing filed SEC documents stating they were taking another loss on the Starliner program, this time $125 million, bringing their total losses to $1.6 billion on a $4.2 billion contract. 

As regards the CFT astronauts,

The NASA full agency review meetings will extend into next week, and multiple groups want the crew to come home on Crew Dragon.

 

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Ars Technica

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/yes-nasa-really-could-bring-starliners-astronauts-back-on-crew-dragon/

>

• SpaceX has been actively working on a scenario in which two or four astronauts launch on board Crew 9. (A normal crew is four) This mission has a nominal launch date of August 18, but it could well be delayed. SpaceX has already identified flight suits that would fit Wilmore and Williams, allowing them to fly home on the Crew-8 spacecraft (presently docked to the space station) or the Crew-9 vehicle. It is unclear how crews would be assigned to the two Dragon return flights. It is possible, if four astronauts launch on Crew 9, that five people could fly home on each of the two Dragons.

>

• Two sources told Ars that in meetings this week at NASA field centers, there have been vigorous discussions about whether or not to fly crew home on Starliner. Multiple groups remain "no" on Starliner as of Wednesday. It is unclear how this will be resolved. Some engineers believe that if there are questions about Starliner, then NASA should opt for the safe course—flying on Crew Dragon, which has safely launched 13 times and landed 12 times."

>

[DocM]

One of the major Starliner problems is they still have not identified a root cause for the thruster failures. NotGood.

CNBC....

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/nasa-may-return-starliner-astronauts-on-boeing-or-spacex.html

NASA weighs Boeing vs. SpaceX choice in bringing back Starliner astronauts

Key Points

• NASA management has been discussing this week whether it should return the agency’s astronauts on board Boeing’s misfiring Starliner capsule or send back the spacecraft empty.

• SpaceX’s Crew Dragon spacecraft would serve as the likely alternative to return the crew from the ISS.

• For its part, Boeing remains confident that Starliner can return the astronauts safely, and no decision has been made yet.

• But the concerns reveal that there is less confidence internally on Starliner than the agency has publicly disclosed.

NASA management has been in deep discussion this week about whether to return the agency’s astronauts on board Boeing’s misfiring Starliner capsule or to go with the alternative of using a SpaceX craft to rescue the crew.

The agency’s concern with Starliner [...] comes from not having identified a root cause for why multiple of the spacecraft’s thrusters failed during docking, a person familiar with the situation told CNBC.

>"

[+thexfile Subscriber²]

What goes up must come down. 😬

[DocM]

To add a little context to this, many people saw this coming. In 2018 they did a test fire of the escape system. Of course the valve system messed up, dumping propellant on the test stand. 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/07/boeing-may-have-suffered-a-setback-with-starliners-pad-abort-test/

It's been a dumpster fire ever since.

[DocM]

Boeing is publicly lobbying NASA to let them fly 

 

 

[DocM]

More Starliner news from Eric Berger at Ars Technica.

This makes it sound like they can bring them both home on Crew 8, due to leave ISS August 27. Yep, 6 passengers on a Crew Dragon instead of 4. Made possible because Dragon was originally designed for 7, but NASA only wanted 4 seats.

It's Endeavour.

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/yes-nasa-really-could-bring-starliners-astronauts-back-on-crew-dragon/

"NASA issued a $266,678 task award to SpaceX on July 14 for a "special study for emergency response." NASA said this study was not directly related to Starliner's problems, but two sources told Ars it really was. Although the study entailed work on flying more than four crew members home on Crew Dragon—a scenario related to Frank Rubio and the Soyuz MS-22 leaks—it also allowed SpaceX to study flying Dragon home with six passengers, a regular crew complement in addition to Wilmore and Williams."