Atlas V: Boeing Starliner CFT (crewed flight test)

[DocM]

On 24/08/2024 at 18:21, Jim K said:

What a waste of money.  This thing was supposed to be operational in 2015 ... 9 years overdue and it has "stranded" its first crewed flight.  I think Boeing promised six flights to the ISS ... darn thing is going to be de-orbited before that happens at this current pace.  We'll see what happens when Starliner comes down in one piece or several ....if Boeing pulls the plug or not.

 

I think the operative term is the un-cleaned-up version of clusterfrack.

Boeing recently replaced its bean counter CEO with an engineer CEO, sounds like he's making some big changes.

He really needs to do a good outside audit, combined with a skeleton-in-closet hunt, then bring on the fire and brimstone.

[DocM]

On 24/08/2024 at 18:07, Biscuits Brown said:

Remind me how many time SpaceX stranded astronauts as the result of a test flight...

Look, the problem isn't that it was a test flight, its because they knew there were issues with the thrusters before they launched but did so anyway. Perhaps they should simply have done another uncrewed test flight (like SpaceX did) to get those issues worked out. 

 

Before Crew Dragon Demo 2 flew astronauts there was only one uncrewed test flight of the Dragon 2 airframe, Demo 1. 

Starting in 2010, Cargo Dragon 1 flew 22 times before Cargo Dragon 2 took over. The first few of these flights is where SpaceX did their thruster debugging, but they had nowhere near the trouble Boeing has had. 

Boeing tried to get cargo missions for Starliner under the Commercial Cargo 2 program, but it didn't make the first cut. Dream Chaser 100 (cargo) won that contract. It's now at Cape Canaveral waiting for its first flight.

[DocM]

Starliner undock from ISS

Date: Sept. 6
Time: 1804 Eastern (2204 UTC)

[bguy_1986]

On 24/08/2024 at 18:47, DocM said:

 

Before Crew Dragon Demo 2 flew astronauts there was only one uncrewed test flight of the Dragon 2 airframe, Demo 1. 

Starting in 2010, Cargo Dragon 1 flew 22 times before Cargo Dragon 2 took over. The first few of these flights is where SpaceX did their thruster debugging, but they had nowhere near the trouble Boeing has had. 

Boeing tried to get cargo missions for Starliner under the Commercial Cargo 2 program, but it didn't make the first cut. Dream Chaser 100 (cargo) won that contract. It's now at Cape Canaveral waiting for its first flight.

IMO, NASA should just require every company to first build a spacecraft to fly cargo before they start putting humans on board.  I think it worked well with Dragon and I think it will work will with Dream Chaser.  Narrow down the focus to getting into space vs adding complexities of also keeping people alive.  This also gets all the automation down of piloting the spacecraft.  I find it a little odd that Starliner was also missing the software to undock and come home on its own.  I'm sure simulations have been done of the software they've uploaded to it, but it's still relatively new I would assume.

[DocM]

On 28/08/2024 at 08:19, bguy_1986 said:

IMO, NASA should just require every company to first build a spacecraft to fly cargo before they start putting humans on board.  I think it worked well with Dragon and I think it will work will with Dream Chaser.  Narrow down the focus to getting into space vs adding complexities of also keeping people alive.  This also gets all the automation down of piloting the spacecraft. 

I agree, that's one reason why SpaceX is planning on flying many Starship satellite and test missions before carrying people.

 

On 28/08/2024 at 08:19, bguy_1986 said:

I find it a little odd that Starliner was also missing the software to undock and come home on its own.  I'm sure simulations have been done of the software they've uploaded to it, but it's still relatively new I would assume.

That is becoming a big thing. Starliner OFT-2 had that automation, docking and undocking from ISS perfectly. Now all of a sudden, with people aboard, this system is not present. I have yet to hear a good excuse why? It takes away the capability of ground control the fly the vehicle if something happens to the astronauts - example being the life support system oxygen levels drop and they go unconscious.

It's stupid, but there has  been a lot of stupid coming out of Boeing lately. I hope that new engineer CEO they just hired liberally applies  the fire and brimstone to their Idiocracy.

[DocM]

 

[DocM]

The NASA/Boeing meetings got pretty hot...

Link...

Boeing execs fought NASA in heated arguments about stranded astronauts flying home in leaky Starliner: ‘Wildly irresponsible’

>

The meetings — attended by senior-level employees on both sides — were tense, and often descended into yelling and arguments, sources said.

“It was heated,” said a NASA executive familiar with the talks.

“Boeing was convinced that the Starliner was in good enough condition to bring the astronauts home, and NASA disagreed. Strongly disagreed.

“The thinking around here was that Boeing was being wildly irresponsible.”

In the end, NASA decided to overrule Boeing’s wishes and have the company’s biggest rival — Elon Musk’s SpaceX — bring home Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams.

>

[DocM]

"rescue mission" Crew 9's crew will be,

Commander: Nick Hague, NASA, USA

Pilot: Aleksandr Gorbunov, Roscosmos, Russia

https://apnews.com/article/nasa-boeing-starliner-stuck-astronauts-6c2db96fa6c6859a48a8c26438fab1d5

[+thexfile Subscriber²]

The Starliner spacecraft has started to emit strange noises

 

On Saturday NASA astronaut Butch Wilmore noticed some strange noises emanating from a speaker inside the Starliner spacecraft.

"I've got a question about Starliner," Wilmore radioed down to Mission Control, at Johnson Space Center in Houston. "There's a strange noise coming through the speaker ... I don't know what's making it."

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/09/starliners-speaker-began-emitting-strange-sonar-noises-on-saturday/

 

[DocM]

Could be as simple as a capacitor getting ready to go in the audio system, or...

 

 

 

[+thexfile Subscriber²]

On 01/09/2024 at 23:20, DocM said:

Could be as simple as a capacitor getting ready to go in the audio system

That's what I'm thinking or something like a ribbon not connected fully.

[SuperHands]

On 30/08/2024 at 18:55, DocM said:

The NASA/Boeing meetings got pretty hot...

Link...

Boeing execs fought NASA in heated arguments about stranded astronauts flying home in leaky Starliner: ‘Wildly irresponsible’

>

The meetings — attended by senior-level employees on both sides — were tense, and often descended into yelling and arguments, sources said.

“It was heated,” said a NASA executive familiar with the talks.

“Boeing was convinced that the Starliner was in good enough condition to bring the astronauts home, and NASA disagreed. Strongly disagreed.

“The thinking around here was that Boeing was being wildly irresponsible.”

In the end, NASA decided to overrule Boeing’s wishes and have the company’s biggest rival — Elon Musk’s SpaceX — bring home Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams.

>

Absolutely the right call. Boeing have proved themselves basically dangerously inept in all aspects of their business.

I wonder what's happening with their space suits. Do space x have suitable spares or do they have to make up custom ones with the astronauts measurements?

[DocM]

On 03/09/2024 at 08:41, SuperHands said:

Absolutely the right call. Boeing have proved themselves basically dangerously inept in all aspects of their business.

I wonder what's happening with their space suits. Do space x have suitable spares or do they have to make up custom ones with the astronauts measurements?

This is a bit of a long story.

SpaceX suits are custom-made, but there is some fudge factor. To fully understand what's going on...

Plan A is to send up crew 9 with two empty seats and  SpaceX suits.They come down in March the normal way.

Plan B exists to handle an ISS emergency after Starliner leaves. The Crew 8 vehicle is there, and would have to serve as a lifeboat. How does it do this?

Crew Dragon and its life support system were  originally designed for 7 people, 4 on the main deck and 3 on the lower deck (see image below). NASA decided that its baseline missions would only have 4 crew members, and in order to lighten the G loads on them they eliminated the 3 lower seats and rotated the upper seats. After launch the seats are moved to make more room. They use the extra space to for hauling cargo, well over a metric ton of it.

After a Soyuz incident 2 years ago which could have left a US astronaut stranded on the station, but fortunately didn't, NASA contracted with SpaceX for a contingency plan in case the Russians had another problem; how to fly an astronaut down as a 5th passenger in Crew Dragon? The answers were,

1) send a SpaceX suit, foam pad, seat insert, and other hardware to the station for storage;

2) create "buddy breathers" allowing lower deck passengers to share a life support system connector with a main deck seat;

3) put the foam pad down on the cargo deck, place the  seat insert on top of it, and strap him/her in.

The SpaceX suit & hardware is now at ISS and in the Crew 8 Dragon currently docked at the station. Starliner's  astronauts both tried on the suit and it fit one of them, we don't know which. In an emergency on the station, a 6th astronaut would have to ride down without a suit or life support connection. Should be fine as long as Dragon doesn't spring a leak.

It's sounding a lot like NASA will upgrade this system to handle at least 6 passengers, if not the full 7, this based on the letting of a second NASA contingency contract with SpaceX a few weeks ago.

Original Crew Dragon seating 

Edited September 3 by DocM

[DocM]

NASA presser about Starliner tomorrow, and once again, no Boeing representative.

 

"Ahead of Starliner’s return, NASA will host a pre-departure news conference at 12 p.m. EDT on Wednesday, Sept. 4, from the agency’s Johnson Space Center in Houston.

Participants include:
Steve Stich, manager, Commercial Crew Program, NASA Kennedy Space Center

Dana Weigel, manager, International Space Station, NASA Johnson Space Center

Anthony Vareha, flight director, International Space Station

NASA astronauts Butch Wilmore and Suni Williams launched aboard Boeing’s Starliner spacecraft on June 5 for its first crewed flight, arriving at the space station on June 6. As Starliner approached the orbiting laboratory, NASA and Boeing identified helium leaks and experienced issues with the spacecraft reaction control thrusters. For the safety of the astronauts, NASA announced on Aug. 24 that Starliner will return to Earth from the station without a crew. Wilmore and Williams will remain aboard the station and return home in February 2025 aboard the SpaceX Dragon spacecraft with two other crew members assigned to NASA’s SpaceX Crew-9 mission."

[+thexfile Subscriber²]

About the pinging noise...

Quote

NASA responded to the inquiry, saying the pulsing sound coming from a speaker in Starliner has since stopped. The sound was the result of an audio configuration between the International Space Station and Starliner — a common occurrence due to the many interconnected spacecraft and modules to the audio system, the U.S. space agency said.

 

 

[DocM]

On 04/09/2024 at 19:45, thexfile said:

About the pinging noise...

 

Good enough. 

Interesting factoid;

Crew 9 Commander Nick Hague is a Colonel in the US Space Force, also known as Guardians.

[bguy_1986]

On 04/09/2024 at 19:45, thexfile said:

About the pinging noise...

 

 

I was expecting another bug in Boeings software.

[DocM]

On 05/09/2024 at 08:11, bguy_1986 said:

I was expecting another bug in Boeings software.

 

I'm expecting...any & every thing. It's the only way not to be disappointed in this POS.

[DocM]

Starliner CFT re-entry coverage 

++++++++++

"NASA's Boeing Crew Flight Test Re-entry and Landing

NASA
7 Sept 2024

Watch live as Boeing's uncrewed Starliner spacecraft leaves low Earth orbit, reenters Earth's atmosphere, and touches down at White Sands Space Harbor in New Mexico. Starliner is scheduled to begin its deorbit burn at 11:17 p.m. EDT on Friday, Sept. 6 (0317 UTC Sept. 7), with landing scheduled for 12:03 a.m. EDT (0403 UTC) on Saturday, Sept. 7."

 

 

 

 

[DocM]

Long write-up in Ars Technica, this time talking about NASA hinting they may not buy the full 6 launches from Boeing.

They are at a stage in the contract (ATP, authorization to proceed) where they could only order 3 three flights (perhaps one being another test flight), then not contract for 3 or more flights. It would save NASA about $2 billion.

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/09/after-another-boeing-letdown-nasa-isnt-ready-to-buy-more-starliner-missions/

"After another Boeing letdown, NASA isn’t ready to buy more Starliner missions

>

NASA has only given Boeing the "Authority To Proceed" for three of its six potential operational Starliner missions. This milestone, known as ATP, is a decision point in contracting lingo where the customer—in this case, NASA—places a firm order for a deliverable. NASA has previously said it awards these task orders about two to three years prior to a mission's launch.

Josh Finch, a NASA spokesperson, told Ars that the agency hasn't made any decisions on whether to commit to any more operational Starliner missions from Boeing beyond the three already on the books.

>"

[anthdci]

On 06/09/2024 at 08:23, DocM said:

Long write-up in Ars Technica, this time talking about NASA hinting they may not buy the full 6 launches from Boeing.

They are at a stage in the contract (ATP, authorization to proceed) where they could only order 3 three flights (perhaps one being another test flight), then not contract for 3 or more flights. It would save NASA about $2 billion.

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/09/after-another-boeing-letdown-nasa-isnt-ready-to-buy-more-starliner-missions/

"After another Boeing letdown, NASA isn’t ready to buy more Starliner missions

>

NASA has only given Boeing the "Authority To Proceed" for three of its six potential operational Starliner missions. This milestone, known as ATP, is a decision point in contracting lingo where the customer—in this case, NASA—places a firm order for a deliverable. NASA has previously said it awards these task orders about two to three years prior to a mission's launch.

Josh Finch, a NASA spokesperson, told Ars that the agency hasn't made any decisions on whether to commit to any more operational Starliner missions from Boeing beyond the three already on the books.

>"

That sounds perfectly reasonable considering how badly this has all gone, but does that not put them back to square one where they only have one route to and from the ISS? Dragon and falcon 9 have shown to be the better launch provider by a long way, but you just don't know what could happen in the future. What if Starship is a complete failure losing billions and forcing SpaceX is wound up (unlikely I know but just trying to think of reasons why dragon wouldn't fly), or SpaceX could become the monopoly and bump it's prices by 500%.

[DocM]

On 06/09/2024 at 04:19, anthdci said:

That sounds perfectly reasonable considering how badly this has all gone, but does that not put them back to square one where they only have one route to and from the ISS? Dragon and falcon 9 have shown to be the better launch provider by a long way, but you just don't know what could happen in the future. What if Starship is a complete failure losing billions and forcing SpaceX is wound up (unlikely I know but just trying to think of reasons why dragon wouldn't fly), or SpaceX could become the monopoly and bump it's prices by 500%.

 

SpaceX is already in near monopoly, they launch over 87% of the mass to orbit for the world, even launching competitors payloads. They tend not to raise prices, they lower them by way of reusing the rockets and passing on the savings. It's driving the competition bonkers. 

 

I don't have the link right now, however....

In the recent US budget report the Senate committee stated it was time to convert an "existing cargo vehicle" to crew. Clearly a response to Starliners soap opera. 

The only non-Dragon vehicles certified for ISS cargo are,

Northrop Grumman's Cygnus; essentially a tin can with propulsion and guidance systems. Doesn't sound like a fit. 

Sierra Space's Dream Chaser 100 spaceplane, the first of which is at Cape Canaveral undergoing test before its first flight atop a Vulcan-Centaur launcher.

There is, however, a wrinkle to this; Sierra will not be using the same airframe for their Dream Chaser 201 crew vehicle. The visual differences are rather striking, but if Congress wants the quickest solution this is it. 

Dream Chaser 100 (cargo), a 1980s lifting body design based on NASA's HL-20 

 

Dream Chaser 201 (crew), definitely a more modern design. 

 

Edited September 6 by DocM

[DocM]

More landing coverage 

 

 

[DocM]

Made it down. 

They had five seats set up for the post-flight press conference, but twó seats were removed. No one but NASA present. Boeing  bugged out. BBC to their credit called them out.

Navigation system failed temporarily during descent. Backups took over.

Helium seals apparently are not hypergolic compatible. How did that happen?

They had another thruster misfire on the way down, this one was on the crew module so they have a failed thruster to examine. They speculated it was another valve issue.

The last question was how are they going to test the dog houses under real conditions, meaning vacuum. It sounds like they're going to build a vacuum chamber at White Sands in which they can fire thrusters under flight conditions. WTF took them so long? We've been flying people for 60 years.

They made it a point to mention the advantage of having a vehicle fly as cargo before modifying it to crew, which is what Dragon did. Got things sorted out before putting people in it..

 

[DocM]

Will Boeing bail out of Commercial Crew after this mess? You tell me...

Boeing statement

"I want to recognize the work the Starliner teams did to ensure a successful and safe undocking, deorbit, re-entry and landing," said Mark Nappi, vice president and program manager of Boeing's Commercial Crew Program. "We will review the data and determine the next steps for the program."