Barry Bonds and Steroids

[Chad]

Pay up. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4432582/ I would tend to believe the Feds than your blind favoritism.

That one great year? Bonds goes from 49 Home runs to 73. That's 24 more home runs. McGuire never had a jump like that. McGuire was flirting with 60 the two years before. 52 in '96, 58 in '97, 70 in '98 and 65 in '99. Had McGuire stayed healthy his entire career, Bonds would still be chasing him.

I never said it made him hit better. It made him stronger, therefore more home runs. In fact, I agreed with you by saying that he had the ability to hit the ball. It improved that skill by adding power.

Have you read any of this thread? Do you even know what I said I would bet on? Apparently that's a no to both questions.

There's no way I'll trust a newspaper report without anything to back it up.

The only reason McGuire lasted as long as he did was because he was taking andro. If you look at before and after he was taking andro, he couldn't finish a season. McGuire was a druggy. You kids talk about Bonds getting big, look at McGuire. His play time revolved around taking Andro or not.

Strength does not directly correlate to home runs. Adding strength NEVER adds skill. Never has never will. Look at Alex Rodriguez, Soriano, Brett Boone...none are big guys, but all hit 40+ home runs. Then you add the countless number of big guys in baseball that can't hit a home run if their life depended on it. All strength gives you is distance, and Bonds' home runs definately aren't what anyone would consider long home runs. Add in the fact that Bonds has hit .330, .370, and .340 the past three years pretty much clinches it for me.

Yeah, he jumped 27 home runs, but you have yet to show me who DIDN'T have a big jump in home runs in 2001. Everyone did. But since 2001, Bonds hasn't hit over 50. It's quite obvious something was up in ALL of baseball in 2001. Whether the balls were being wound tighter or what, I don't know. But you can't single out Bonds for having a good season, since everyone else did as well.

[....]

Yeah, he jumped 27 home runs

You say I haven't read the thread? Take your own advice, please.

1. It was 24 HRs.

2. I have said now...TWICE, that steroids does not increase skill, it increases power. Bonds already had the skill and the batspeed to hit the ball.

I've talked with pro players about the steroid issue personally. They are saying the same thing everyone else is saying. He uses them.

Using your logic, Sammy Sosa should have gone nuts in 2001. Um...he didn't. Check the report again. The media is passing on the fact. They don't make this stuff up, but you still choose to believe your blind logic than the feds. I won't change your mind, apparently. :rolleyes:

[Ayepecks]

Barry Bonds is a loser. He used steroids. McGwire used Andro. Andro is not illegal. But its more than that guys. People liked Mark McGwire. The general public doesnt think too much of Barry Bonds. He's historically been a dick to fans and media, and is constantly showboating. Sheffield is in the same situation.

Agreed. I liked McGwire. He seemd like a genuinely nice guy and not a jerk to people. He had the option for a huge contract, but he decided against it. He could have signed it and then took the next few seasons off (as many pro-atheletes do) and still get paid, but he didn't. I have respect for Mark. I don't have respect for Barry for all of the rude things he's said and done. Anyone remember when he said he wanted to make it so people 'forgot about Babe Ruth'? He needs to learn his place and accept it.

[Chad]

I've talked with pro players about the steroid issue personally. They are saying the same thing everyone else is saying. He uses them.

Using your logic, Sammy Sosa should have gone nuts in 2001. Um...he didn't. Check the report again. The media is passing on the fact. They don't make this stuff up, but you still choose to believe your blind logic than the feds. I won't change your mind, apparently. :rolleyes:

Just keep trying to convince yourself he's using. And where does it say the Feds say he used? Like I said, read the espn article. The only reason you want desparately for Bonds to be using, is because you can't stand him. You can't stand that he will break the hr record or that he's the best player in the history of MLB, so you, like many others out there, blindly attach this "let's string him up" attitude. This witch hunt is rediculous. Hell, even BALCO says Bonds never received steroids from them. Now honestly, what would they have to gain by saying that? Nothing.

I could care less what pro players you claim to be talking to. They are as good of a source as the SF Chronicle. Read: Not good. Any Joe can come online and claim whatever they want. Until Bonds admits something, or someone actually provides somewhat decent evidence, he's innocent.

If you compare Sosa's numbers to a "normal" season for him, they were way up. Why aren't you going after Mcguire and Sosa for using? Their stats jumped MUCH more than Bonds' did. But since you like them, there's no way they're involved in anything like this :rolleyes:

2.  I have said now...TWICE, that steroids does not increase skill, it increases power.  Bonds already had the skill and the batspeed to hit the ball.

You said increased power increases skill. But it doesn't. You don't think the media makes things up? LOL!!! Now that's rich. Where's the proof? They have these so-called sources, but nothing to back up the claims. Keep tryin bud.

[Zzz1111]

I hope they take away his record, I still have my Mark McGwire rookie card. :yes:

[AndyD]

I fail to see why the big deal is about whether Bonds used steroids or not.  The only reason they are making such a big deal out of him particularly is because he is one of the best batters in baseball and maybe one of the best players in baseball history (MVP for that matter) and being the best always puts u under the spotlight. 

Indeed even if he did use steroids which we cannot assume he did until the facts are proven, there are tonnes of other baseball players out there who use it most likely e.g. Sosa, Rivera, Giambi those are a few to name.  Every big batter could be possibly using it as Canseco said and even Wells said that in his book.

As to whether his records should be taken away (Bonds that is), I don't think that has anything relevant to whether he used steroids or not.  One of the things in baseball is that being strong doesnt give you HR.  It is your ability to see the ball and connect with it.  I give a amateur league batter......a good batter too...steroids and make him stronger, does that mean he will be batting 40+ HRs in the major leagues?  Most likely not, because you have to be a skilled batter to get those contacts.

McGuire is not completely clean for all those saying he is better than Bonds.  He did use a questionnable supplement which is a form of Steroid.  It does make him stronger and recover faster so it does not make him cleaner than Bonds (if Bonds is proven to have taken steroids) if u are questionning HRs and who is a better batter. 

I still think Bonds is a more skilled batter.

If it's rampant, then they should figure out better ways of testing and catch every last one of them. If you can't compete with your own natural ability, then you should be out of the game.

Edited March 5, 2004 by AndyD

[Peter Griffin]

I believe Bonds HAS taken steroids, BUT he did have that awesome swing and coordination before then. Steroids can't give you the ability, only the strength. Having said that, I think we should be stripped of his records if he is found to have taken them. Yes, he has great skill and would have probably hit 50 HRs that year without steroids, but that extra strength really helps to send the ball out.

[Remote]

I dont think anyone read the artical that I posted. Here is a good qoute from it.

Now we are definitely in an era of performance-enhancing drugs; no need for any of us to be on any high horse about it. Without Toprol or Lotrel, anti- high-blood pressure drugs, or especially Nexium, I'm sure I'd be curled up in a ball somewhere. Do you want to get into all the performance enhancers you take? And is not all of your work still valid? Or, not? Am I supposed to believe nobody actually uses Cialis or Levitra or Viagra, that the companies making them are going broke? Why is it when NFL football players are shot up in their ankles and calves and knees and rib cages and shoulders and necks with pain-killers to numb themselves and then go out and sacrifice their damaged limbs so they can perform for us, we have no outrage over that?

Why is that not "cheating"?

I am not saying that bonds did or did not use steriods, because it is not possible to be 100%. Because of that, it is not fair to acuse him of using it.

But all this talk of taking his records away, its just not right. He is a great player and will/should be remember as one.

All you people are so easy to jump to conclusions based on no proof.

Lastly, who is to say you can take his records away if he does in fact use steriods. Who is to say the people before him that hold other records havent? How is it fair to single him out?

[AndyD]

I dont think anyone read the artical that I posted. Here is a good qoute from it.

I am not saying that bonds did or did not use steriods, because it is not possible to be 100%. Because of that, it is not fair to acuse him of using it.

But all this talk of taking his records away, its just not right. He is a great player and will/should be remember as one.

All you people are so easy to jump to conclusions based on no proof.

Lastly, who is to say you can take his records away if he does in fact use steriods. Who is to say the people before him that hold other records havent? How is it fair to single him out?

Sorry but I don't take that as a valid comparison. Performance enhancement drugs should not be used by any professional player if it gives an unfair advantage over others. If hes stupid enough to use them and get caught, then he should penalized in some manner.

As for the painkillers, no one is putting a gun to their head to take em. If they want to continue playing while in pain, it is because of their paychecks. It ain't illegal. Sacrifice themselves?? That's a bunch of bull. I highly doubt that the majority of the players give a **** about you or me.

[imtoomuch]

Remote: I didn't jump on any bandwagon. It's my opinion.

superfula: I have played baseball and taking steroids will NOT help you hit the ball. It WILL help you hit the ball farther because you have increased strength.

[Peter Griffin]

All you people are so easy to jump to conclusions based on no proof.

I'll admit, I have no absolute proof.

BUT..........

Like Mr. Van Slyke said:

"Barry went to the bank with the robber, he drove the car, he got money in his pocket from the bag that came out of the bank. Come to your own conclusion. Did he spend the money?

You decide. I think he did."

"People do not gain thirty-five pounds of muscle in their late thirties without a little bit of help"

I tend to think that these statements make a lot of sense, if you don't that's fine too. I just wanted to show you why I believe that he did, even if absolute proof isn't there. I know he was a rookie a long time ago, but looking at his rookie card right now, he weighed 185......now he is a monster(230-240). I know there are plenty of years in between that he could have done intensive weight training, but he put on his weight in the last few years, and very quickly.

Edited March 6, 2004 by Peter Griffin

[kongit]

I think he did take the roids. As people have said he put on a lot of bulk. That isn't natural. Additionally his record has a jump. Jumps mean something changed. Whether he took the steroids or not the jump doesn't say, he might of just changed his technique or spent a heck of a lot of time practicing between seasons. Add those to the fact that his trainer admitted to the drugs then I say you got a winner. 1+ 1 doesn't equal three, but 1 + 1 + 1 does equal three. 2 circumstancial facts can often lead to the wrong answer, but 3 or more and I say that it is more likely than not true.

just wanted to add that Babe Ruths Steroids were alcohol and pie :D

[coolant]

I say, let everybody take 'roids! I want to see a 100+ HR season! :D

[Remote]

who wants to take the effort of making a timeline of pics 1987-2004

Ebay has good baseballcard pics.

[CatnipOligarchy]

who wants to take the effort of making a timeline of pics 1987-2004

Ebay has good baseballcard pics.

im on it

[....]

Sweet. This should be good.

[Remote]

im on it

cool, when you get it, post a poll about it.

Make a vote for " Is this possible to gain this muscel without the help of steriods and not"

Dont make it does he do steriods cause that leaves more room for bias.

[CatnipOligarchy]

1987:

1988:

1989:

1990:

1991:

1992:

1993:

1994:

1995:

1996:

[CatnipOligarchy]

1997:

1998:

1999:

2000:

2001:

2002:

2003:

[Remote]

Nice work!!!

IMHO, it looks like a steady growth.

The most growth that i see is from 87 - 91 while he was young and had the ability to put on that kind of muscle after making it to the big leagues

[CatnipOligarchy]

he appears to be biggest in '01, the 73 HR campaign year

[kongit]

I'd say that between the years 89-90 he had a big growth of muslce. since then he has slowly been gaining muscle. I am no longer sure that steroids are involved.

[bonobozoot]

From all your pics, you can see the difference between 1997 and 1999. IMHO, that is where you can see the muscles in his arms. Still doesnt say whether that is due to steroids.

Need to find out if his technique and swing changed during those times. That could prove something.

[Remote]

I was acually surprised. he was much bigger then I thought in his rookie year

[Ayepecks]

Looks like he got it all in '99 (maybe '98).