[NHL] Report: Sides agree to salary cap

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Man, I'm getting tired of people wanting more points and scoring in sports. I'm not slamming any of you here, but it seems like every time a collective bargaining agreement is being worked on both sides want more offense, more output... am I the only one who actually cares about defense in sports? Blow-out games bore me to tears. High-scoring games bore me to tears most of the time, too.

I love watching close, defensive-minded games. Everytime you think someone is going to score, the other team makes an amazing defensive play, or the other team comes right back and evens it up, keeping the game tight. Of course this can happen in high-scoring games, too, but then there's no thrill to it, if you ask me. When you get something rarely, you appreciate it more.

I'm sure I am in the extreme minority, though.

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Two years ago, the majority of games ended with about 4 goals or less. 1-0, 1-1, 2-1, 2-2, 3-1, etc.. There was even a record for the number of 0-0 final scores.

I think the nhl would like most games to end 3-2 with only the very rare game ending 6-4. Many games would still end up 2-1, however.

Back in the 80's or even 90's games averaged with 5.x goals per game (or thereabouts) while now it is less than four. I think they'd like to get back to 5.x goals per game. I don't think that is a radical shift, just a correction.

[BMac]

I totally understand your point of view Scorpio and believe me, if the changes were up to me there wouldn't be any. I don't mind a low scoring game, but to the average fan that is boring. In my opinion the only thing that is wrong with the game is that we are not playing it right now. I however am not the average fan and will watch no matter what they do to the game. It's the people who won't watch a 0-0 game that they need to appeal to and I understand that and respect it. It is a business after all.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

Do you ever notice that when Leafs TV shows the Classic Games they never show anything after the league expanded to 30 teams?

It is generally accepted that hockey was better prior to 1991-1994 when the SJ Sharks, Ottawa Senators, TB Lightning, Anaheim Mighty Ducks and Florida Panthers were added). That mistake was compounded in the few years following 1998 when they added the Nashville Predators, Atlanta Thrashers, Minnesota Wild and Columbus Bluejackets.

Yes, in the 1979-1980 the League added four teams with no ill effect (although three of the four teams did eventually move and the fourth is currently on weak financial footing). This did not serve to drain the talent pool, however, as these were not new hockey teams. The Edmonton Oilers, Quebec Nordiques (eventually to become the Colorado Avalanche, Hartford Whalers (eventually to become the Carolina Hurricanes) and Winnipeg Jets (eventually to become the Phoenix Coyotes) were all taken from the former WHL hockey league.

At any rate, when the league expanded by nearly 50% within a decade (from 21 teams to 30 teams), it is going to have some effect on the talent level. Many teams switched to a defencive-style game and employed trap-like systems. It did make the game more boring to watch.

I'm not saying that hockey is a bad sport to watch. I rather like hockey but hockey was better prior to 1993 or so. They certainly could have stopped with the Sharks, Senators and Lightning. It all got worse from there (except for maybe Minnesota, at least it is cold there).

[BMac]

The Dallas Stars never should have left Minnesota imo.

Anyways, Betman will never go for league contraction. That is his legacy to the game and if he chopped a bunch of the teams he introduced, he would have no standing legacy other than the Commish who almost killed the league. As much as I agree with you Fred and would like to see the league contract, it ain't gonna happen under Betman's reign.

[Ayepecks]

I totally understand your point of view Scorpio and believe me, if the changes were up to me there wouldn't be any.  I don't mind a low scoring game, but to the average fan that is boring.  In my opinion the only thing that is wrong with the game is that we are not playing it right now.  I however am not the average fan and will watch no matter what they do to the game.  It's the people who won't watch a 0-0 game that they need to appeal to and I understand that and respect it.  It is a business after all.

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Oh, I understand... I also understand that the average fan and the majority of fans like high scoring games. I'm just saying I don't understand why, and I don't agree with them as I would much rather have a defensive-minded game myself, for the reasons I mentioned above. But I understand the average fan wants high scoring games, and I understand it's for excitement, in that regard... I just don't find that exciting, though.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

The Dallas Stars never should have left Minnesota imo.

Anyways, Betman will never go for league contraction.  That is his legacy to the game and if he chopped a bunch of the teams he introduced, he would have no standing legacy other than the Commish who almost killed the league.  As much as I agree with you Fred and would like to see the league contract, it ain't gonna happen under Betman's reign.

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I was not particularly saying that the league should contract. I was saying that the additional of all of these teams, caused a dilution of talent which in turn changed the focus from offence to defence.

I was also saying that whatever rule changes could put the offence back into the game would not be changing the game, it would be correcting it. We need to let the stars shine and get rid of the obstruction for good.

Close fought 1-0 game are fine when the goaltenders are standing on their heads but when it is 1-0 because the entire game has been played in the neutral zone since both teams are employing the trap then that is a dismally bad game to watch.

I mean, if I wanted to watch a sport where most of the "action" was in the neutral zone then I'd watch soccer. They also end up 1-0.

[Ayepecks]

It all got worse from there (except for maybe Minnesota, at least it is cold there).

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By your logic, Detroit, New England and numerous other places should not have football because it's too cold there. If you want to take it to extremes, you could say that by your logic New York shouldn't have baseball since it's too cold there, too, as both baseball and football are sports that are played outside when it's primarily hot.

I'm not defending Dallas as you may think, though, just because I live here. I don't like the team. I hate them, in fact. I don't like them. I am defending them because the fan base is larger than it ever was in Minnesota, and that's backed up with statistics.

You can't say the south doesn't deserve hockey. That's just being ignorant and foolish.

(Just noticed your post from the quote.)

[Fred Derf Veteran]

By your logic, Detroit, New England and numerous other places should not have football because it's too cold there. If you want to take it to extremes, you could say that by your logic New York shouldn't have baseball since it's too cold there, too, as both baseball and football are sports that are played outside when it's primarily hot.

I'm not defending Dallas as you may think, though, just because I live here. I don't like the team. I hate them, in fact. I don't like them. I am defending them because the fan base is larger than it ever was in Minnesota, and that's backed up with statistics.

You can't say the south doesn't deserve hockey. That's just being ignorant and foolish.

(Just noticed your post from the quote.)

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You are extrapolating more meaning from that one phrase then I intended but if you want to go there...

Kids in Dallas do not tend to grow up with dreams of playing hockey. Yes, they may have decent attendance because of the size of the community but hockey is a distant fourth place sport in the region. I wonder if attendance will bounce back in places like Dallas (or Phoenix). Canadian cities will ave no trouble regaining any attendance numbers. Not one person in Toronto backed out of season's tickets because of the lockout.

At any rate, I thought you were from Detroit. I guess you are a Wings fan from Texas then?

[BMac]

Kids in Dallas do not tend to grow up with dreams of playing hockey.  Yes, they may have decent attendance because of the size of the community but hockey is a distant fourth place sport in the region.  I wonder if attendance will bounce back in places like Dallas (or Phoenix).  Canadian cities will ave no trouble regaining any attendance numbers. Not one person in Toronto backed out of season's tickets because of the lockout.

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Only time will tell. but like you I doubt it.

I mean, if I wanted to watch a sport where most of the "action" was in the neutral zone then I'd watch soccer. They also end up 1-0.

Interesting that soccer though is more popular than hockey could ever hope to be. Maybe we're just marketing hockey to the wrong people. Perhaps we ought to look across the pond, known as the Atlantic if we want the NHL to be really successful.

[emo]

i just want hockey back...... :(

[Ayepecks]

You are extrapolating more meaning from that one phrase then I intended but if you want to go there...

Kids in Dallas do not tend to grow up with dreams of playing hockey.  Yes, they may have decent attendance because of the size of the community but hockey is a distant fourth place sport in the region.  I wonder if attendance will bounce back in places like Dallas (or Phoenix).  Canadian cities will ave no trouble regaining any attendance numbers. Not one person in Toronto backed out of season's tickets because of the lockout.

At any rate, I thought you were from Detroit.  I guess you are a Wings fan from Texas then?

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Yet again, you have no idea what you're talking about. If you don't know what hockey is like in Texas, don't pretend to.

There are numerous kids in the Dallas area that dream of playing hockey. There is a high school association of hockey teams in Texas that is extremely competitive, even if not a UIL-sanctioned event. Numerous players in this association are going to college on scholarships to play hockey, which isn't exactly an easy feat, no matter where you live. Then again, maybe you went to college (or at college, or are going, I don't know) on a hockey scholarship and find it easy to get... but, I still stand by my opinion that it's a hard thing to get.

Hockey a distant fourth place... well, uh, since when was that? Please tell me you are not referring to the TEXAS RANGERS as the third team. I would be willing to bet you a large sum of money that more people in the Dallas area follow the Stars (or, did follow the Stars) over the Texas Rangers. The Rangers have not had a huge following since their division championship days, although it's getting back to a good number slowly.

Then the other two teams you talk about are the Dallas Cowboys and Dallas Mavericks... well yeah! Do you know how many people in America follow the Dallas Cowboys, not only including the state of Texas? They're one of the most beloved team in sports history! I'm not saying that because I like them (I don't), I'm saying that because it's statistics. And the Mavericks are an NBA team in the area... tell me, what city that has an NBA team and an NHL team doesn't follow the NBA team more? There's maybe 5. Toronto, Detroit (barely), etc.

If you don't know about hockey in Texas, don't assume to. There are numerous minor league teams in Texas and the general region, and the Houston area actually has an extremely large following just for a minor league franchise (the Aeros).

And don't compare Dallas to Phoenix, in terms of hockey popularity. Phoenix is slowly getting there, whereas Dallas has been there.

...and, yes, I'm a Red Wings fan. I lived in Detroit for a while, then moved to Texas. ;)

[BMac]

Yet again, you have no idea what you're talking about. If you don't know what hockey is like in Texas, don't pretend to.

There are numerous kids in the Dallas area that dream of playing hockey. There is a high school association of hockey teams in Texas that is extremely competitive, even if not a UIL-sanctioned event. Numerous players in this association are going to college on scholarships to play hockey, which isn't exactly an easy feat, no matter where you live. Then again, maybe you went to college (or at college, or are going, I don't know) on a hockey scholarship and find it easy to get... but, I still stand by my opinion that it's a hard thing to get.

Hockey a distant fourth place... well, uh, since when was that? Please tell me you are not referring to the TEXAS RANGERS as the third team. I would be willing to bet you a large sum of money that more people in the Dallas area follow the Stars (or, did follow the Stars) over the Texas Rangers. The Rangers have not had a huge following since their division championship days, although it's getting back to a good number slowly.

Then the other two teams you talk about are the Dallas Cowboys and Dallas Mavericks... well yeah! Do you know how many people in America follow the Dallas Cowboys, not only including the state of Texas? They're one of the most beloved team in sports history! I'm not saying that because I like them (I don't), I'm saying that because it's statistics. And the Mavericks are an NBA team in the area... tell me, what city that has an NBA team and an NHL team doesn't follow the NBA team more? There's maybe 5. Toronto, Detroit (barely), etc.

If you don't know about hockey in Texas, don't assume to. There are numerous minor league teams in Texas and the general region, and the Houston area actually has an extremely large following just for a minor league franchise (the Aeros).

And don't compare Dallas to Phoenix, in terms of hockey popularity. Phoenix is slowly getting there, whereas Dallas has been there.

...and, yes, I'm a Red Wings fan. I lived in Detroit for a while, then moved to Texas. ;)

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Now I don't want to fight with you but I want to clarify something. I have a family friend in Dallas who use to live in Toronto and they agreed the support for hockey in Dallas pails in comparison to up here. Second of all, university/college hockey leagues are filled with second rate players. Any player with a shred of talent is scouted and invited to come up and play in the CHL. I support kids getting an education while playing hockey but the prospects recognize that the CHL is where to be.

From a pratical stand point, I don't think hockey should be in Dallas. My main reason for this is if/when the Stars get into the playoffs the ice conditions turn to crap. Now if you guys were bring in huge revenues and were a staple of the league I'd shut my mouth but you're not and your crappy ice helps to ruin the playoffs. Now I know technology has gotten better but ice in temperatures of 100 degrees results in crap hockey and is part of the problem with the game.

[Ayepecks]

Crappy ice conditions... is that truly the best reason you can think of to slam the Dallas Stars? Seriously, get over it. Like I said: I am not a fan of the Dallas Stars. But to say that Dallas doesn't deserve a hockey team is absolutely and utterly asinine. There's no way around it.

The city has already proven that it's willing to support the team time and time again. Since they first moved to Dallas, they've been at least somewhat popular. More popular than they (almost) ever were in Minnesota, a hockey-loving city if there ever was one. So, tell me, how is it that you think the southern states in the United States 'don't deserve hockey'? And don't say that's not what you're implying, because it obviously is.

The Dallas Stars may not have the highest revenue in the league, but they've been a playoff contender pretty much ever since they moved to Dallas, and they've had good revenue, too. They've kept a respectable team, which is a lot more than numerous other NHL franchises can say.

From a practical standpoint, since the Dallas Stars are a money-getting, winning team, there is reason for hockey in Dallas. Yet again, your exact arguement could be used to say that baseball and football teams don't belong in northern states. And, yet again, going off this absolutely asinine ideology, the Yankees, Red Sox, Patriots, and numerous other respectable teams don't "deserve" to be where they are.

How about this: I think Canada should be barred from all sports except for hockey because they don't support them. Absolutely stupid, right? You bet it is! You can't just go prancing around saying we don't deserve hockey because we don't have the drive for it that Canadians do. That logic is simple ignorance (as well as arrogance). Get over it... hockey isn't only a Canadian and northern-U.S. thing any more. Perhaps if Dallas were a horrible franchise, getting no respect, I'd agree with you... but they're not.

And, for your logic about the 100-degree weather here resulting in crappy ice conditions: yes, it has been a minor factor before. But since when did Edmonton (who the Stars seemed to play in the playoffs every year for the longest time, it appeared) whine about that? Did the Devils whine about it? Did the Red Wings? How about Washington, did they? If the players aren't complaining about it, why are you! How does it ruin the playoffs?

[BMac]

If you watched good coverage you'd here that there were complaints all the time. I don't know how in depth ESPN is but up here even in news reports people were commenting that the play was horrible due to the choppy ice. This is the exact type of ignorance that I'm speaking of. When the dropping of the puck has to be delayed due to the fact that the ref has to mop up the ice, is when hockey needs to be moved north where ice can be sustained. The fact comes down to ice and not people. It is stupid to stay that the Yankees shouldn't have a baseball team because it is too cold. Put an extra shirt on and get out there Nancy. Ice cannot be sustained in hot temperatures well which has an effect on the game. A cold day in baseball doesn't mean the grass will melt. Your argument makes no sense in that regard. I speak of heat because it has a drastic effect on the ability to play hockey, the same cannot be said for the other sports you mentioned. You can't call my argument assinine as not being able to maintain ice has a direct effect on the ability to play the game. Any disagreement is just foolish.

[Ayepecks]

That is ignorance? Simply because people complained about it a few times? Please. Like I said: yes, they complained about it, but nowhere near the extent that you're trying to lead on. I am not ignorant in this regard, so don't test me: I pay close attention to all the hockey coverage, I watch the interviews, I read about it in the newspaper. Yes, they do complain about it, but they don't complain about it that much. Secondly, even if it were as bad as you claim it is, I would not see a big deal with it. You play the game, doesn't matter conditions. No reason to complain about something you can't change.

You're right, it's stupid to say the Yankees shouldn't be located in New York. Just as it's stupid to say that the Stars shouldn't be located in Dallas. It's still a game! "Get out there Nancy," as you stated. Leave your pansy complaints at the door and play the game it's meant to be played. The ice will be contained to the best that is possible. If you think it makes that big of a difference, you're dead wrong. They deal with it in minor league games here, and both teams on the ice have to deal with it in the NHL -- do you really think the Stars have some sort of magic skates that make everything perfect for them or something? Please. Get over it.

Lastly, the NHL HAS RULES FOR THE HARDNESS OF THE ICE. If it weren't suitable for playing, the players wouldn't be playing, period. This is hardly a non-agrumental subject, unlike what you claim.

As you can see, any disagreement is not foolish, but thank you for that arrogant remark... it's just what I've come to expect from Canadians who believe southern states don't deserve hockey.

[Fred Derf Veteran]

It can get pretty hot in some parts of Canada (like Toronto) during the final rounds of the Stanley Cup playoffs now that the finals extend into June.

Mind you, that is sort of solved around here because the Leafs don't make it that far. :pinch: