Fred Derf Veteran Posted November 11, 2005 Veteran Share Posted November 11, 2005 "The two places where I think there will not be teams in two years are Carolina and Atlanta," Ozanian said, "and I still need more convincing in Florida and Nashville." Maple Leafs No. 1 - in value Team worth $325 million, Forbes says Peddie disputes figures: `Not even close' Nov. 11, 2005. 05:20 AM KEN CAMPBELL SPORTS REPORTER Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment president Richard Peddie had a predictable reaction to a Forbes magazine story that has the Maple Leafs awash in money, both in terms of revenues and franchise value. "Don't we wish," Peddie said. "It's not even close, not close at all." In its Nov. 28 issue, Forbes reports that the Leafs are the most valuable team in the NHL at $325 million (all figures U.S., unless otherwise indicated), that their operating income has been $85 million over the past five years and that the 86 per cent increase in the value of the franchise over that time is tops in the league. Peddie was quick to denounce both the income and franchise-value numbers, saying Forbes doesn't have access to MLSE's or any other organization's financial numbers. Peddie said the $85 million operating income was a number he didn't recognize. He said the actual operating profit is much less once you account for taxes and the fact that MLSE pays $27 million (Cdn.) per year on its debt. "When you whittle it all down, the profit is not comparable to the Fortune 500 companies out there at all," he said. "This is a thin-profit business ? it really is thin. If I were running a big Fortune 500 company, they would be giving me a lot of trouble for how low our bottom line is." Forbes acknowledged that it doesn't have access to the Leafs' financial reports, but said it conducts numerous interviews with sports bankers and verifies its figures based on recent transactions, such as the sales of the New Jersey Devils, Vancouver Canucks and Mighty Ducks of Anaheim. Michael Ozanian, who co-wrote the piece, said Forbes' numbers are sound, particularly for franchise value. &quoI had a banker tell me he could find a buyer and sell the Maple Leafs tomorrow for $300 million, so I think $325 million is very reasonableb>," Ozanian said. &quoWe do know that last year, with a lockout looming, the Devils sold for $125 million. The guy (Jeffrey Vanderbeek) paid that knowing he likely wasn't going to have hockey for a year. Just ask somebody, `What's a better deal, $325 (million) for the Maple Leafs, including the revenue they get from the building, or $125 million for the Devils?'b>" Peddie said it's irrelevant to discuss the value of the Leafs without rolling it into the value of the Air Canada Centre and the Raptors because the organization's strength is in how all the components fit together. "The interesting question is, what is Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment worth? ? and I don't know," Peddie said. "We're not for sale right now." Peddie did acknowledge that the $39 million salary cap has been a boon to all NHL teams, including the Leafs. Not only do they save about $30 million in player salaries, but fixed costs make a company far more attractive to potential buyers. "I think the new collective bargaining agreement was very good for enterprise value," Peddie said. "We saw that in the NBA." But it's not simply market forces and a salary cap that have made the Leafs so successful, the New York-based Ozanian said. "For a couple of years, people have been pointing out that (the Leafs) are really doing a good job up there," he said. "It's one of the top hockey markets in North America and they've usually been going a couple of rounds in the playoffs. They don't have a crazy payroll. They've got a lot of good things going up there." Ozanian predicted the viability of at least two NHL franchises will become a relevant topic very soon. &qThe two places where I think there will not be teams in two years are Carolina and Atlanta," Ozanian said, &qand I still need more convincing in Florida and Nashville." http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentSe...id=968332188492 Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreAming in DigITal Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I don't doubt it...Very few people in that area give a crap about hockey. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586796475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toastyone Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 :laugh: yeah I could really care less and I live 30 minutes away from the Hurricanes who actually have won 8 straight and are leading their division by like 7 points :p Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586797062 Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 They need to trim about 1/2 the teams, IMO. Most south of the canadian border. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586797072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreAming in DigITal Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 (edited) Why don't they move them to a country that actually enjoys hockey...give the entire league to Canada or something. I actually think it would be more exciting if ALL the teams were Canada (except maybe detroit/Ny/pttsburgh). I think it would make the whole experience more exciting because the level of fan support would be much higher. I'll watch the NHL playoffs but thats about it...then I reach my "mullets sliding on ice" limit :laugh: Edited November 11, 2005 by DreAming in DigITal Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586797134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted November 11, 2005 Author Veteran Share Posted November 11, 2005 With the new economics (the salary cap) it is possible that Winnipeg re-aquires a team. Hamilton is always a possibility but Toronto or Buffalo could complain about the proximity. Quebec City could potentially have a team again and maybe Halifax but that is about it. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586797171 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattmatik Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Just don't take away the Sharks! They sell out alot of their games and merchandise is starting to get popular again (it was EXTREMELY popular their first few years). I think the south (Phoenix, Dallas, Atlanta, Florida) is crap for hockey. Still can't understand why they went there. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586797183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJerman Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Yeah, that's what people who don't have a clue think. The Hurricanes are HUGE in Raleigh. When they were in the stanley cup a few years back they said we had the loudest arena of any NHL team. You can't drive down the road without seeing cars with Hurricanes license plates. Hell, I'm sitting in Oklahoma (I'm from Raleigh, was born and go to school in Oklahoma unfortunately) wearing my Hurricanes hat as we speak. The current ad campaign for the Hurricanes is "Here to play, here to stay" because of just that, some people thought Carolina wouldn't last but we've definately proved that wrong. Edit: Oh, and if we keep up the domination like we have this year, there's no way in hell we'll be moving anytime soon ;) 8-straight, 11-2-1 Go Canes! Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586797202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
quick Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 Just don't take away the Sharks! They sell out alot of their games and merchandise is starting to get popular again (it was EXTREMELY popular their first few years). I think the south (Phoenix, Dallas, Atlanta, Florida) is crap for hockey. Still can't understand why they went there. 586797183[/snapback] Normally i would agree with you, but Dallas does sell out pretty much every game every year. Although the fans are not exactly the most Hockey savvy people. Hockey is getting big texas for kids and junior leagues etc... Also mainly just because im currently living in Houston, i wish they could get a team... nearly had one a few years back but fell through cause of building a new arena wasn't settled. Lots of money and people in this city definately would make the team profitable no doubt. Again not the most hockey savvy place in the world lol, but if one of those cities decides to sell.. come here :D Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586797275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroChaos Veteran Posted November 11, 2005 Veteran Share Posted November 11, 2005 i don't want to see teh nhl lose any teams, if at all possible. i'm from michigan, and even though i live in cali now, the kings and the mighty ducks are still pretty popular. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586797309 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galley Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 No, not my Hurricanes! :angry: Seriously, there is way too many NHL teams. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586797955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hills420 Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 The Thrashers have been doing quite well attendence wise, the place is full every game I go to. Hockey is all I like about this damn town.... Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586797971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayepecks Posted November 11, 2005 Share Posted November 11, 2005 I'll believe it when I see it. For one thing: when you deny that you're rolling in money (something you normally hope to happen), and you own a sports franchise, that's probably a sign that they're being honest. I don't know any team that would deny they're rich (or worth a lot, you get the idea) if they are -- do you hear any New York teams saying that? Nah. First, I have to agree -- where did Forbes aquire such information? Second, until I see the specifics, I'm skeptical. I especially like how they verified their results: Forbes acknowledged that it doesn't have access to the Leafs' financial reports, but said it conducts numerous interviews with sports bankers and verifies its figures based on recent transactions, such as the sales of the New Jersey Devils, Vancouver Canucks and Mighty Ducks of Anaheim. Michael Ozanian, who co-wrote the piece, said Forbes' numbers are sound, particularly for franchise value. HAH! :sleep: Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586798022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puss Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Carolina--they are the WORST franchise out there. Low attendance, bad records in recent years (With the exception of 2001). I saw a Hurricanes game a while ago when they played the Sens-only half the seats are filled-HOrriBle. Even if their team is doing well. Carolinians just don't like Hockey! Face it. Atlanta? I think Atlanta will be a very successful franchise (with Kovalchuk and Hossa and a few young stars). Great playesr and they still have fans. Florida is more likely to vanish in my opinion. See, teams in Carolina are losing money. People still like to build teams there. Charlotte Hornets moved to New Orleans. Panthers is a so-so nfl franchise. What do you think? Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586798492 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayepecks Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 They don't have low attendance, last I checked -- they weren't exactly the best in it, but they weren't low. If they create a constant winner, Carolinians will like hockey. Same thing happened here in Dallas, even though it's not a hockey town. Houston's actually quite a hockey town, though -- I was surprised they didn't get a team. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586798787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJerman Posted November 12, 2005 Share Posted November 12, 2005 Yeah, everyone goes through ups and downs, we had a good team for a little while, then we fell for a while, and now we have another good team (as of last night, 3rd in the NHL and Staal is tied for most points in the league). I wont say that Carolina's fans are all hardcore fans though. There are plenty of them that would only go if they were winning, but hockey is still pretty new there and they are getting more and more fans as the time goes. Had this report come out before the season started, I could almost believe it, but not with how Carolina is doing now. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586800684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
R-Flex Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 The creation of so many teams is what ruined the NHL, both financially and with it's fanbase. I can't wait for teams to start folding, or at least moving back to Canada. First and foremost, Carolina and Atlanta. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586810403 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayepecks Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Wha, wha, wha. I'm from Canada and we suffer from a lack of hockey -- we can never have enough! You want some french cries to go with your whamburger? :p Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586810988 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slane Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 I live down in South Carolina and hockey has really takin off in the past few years. We are only 4 teams away from having the required 16 teams in state for a high school league (this has been done in 5 years going from 6 to 12). Pee Dee Pride from Florence in the ECHL have moved to Myrtle Beach where we know for a fac that we could easily get 4 high school teams from there, so SC is very close to having a High School Hockey league. Travel has takin off, with my Midget Major 16 under team making it to Districts(tourney before Nationals) last season. So hockey is starting to take off down here, and Hurricanes is only a 3 hours drive from me(Charleston) so this season I plan on going to the games, so they better stay there. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586811766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEVER85 Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Maple Leafs No. 1 - in value 586796235[/snapback] :rofl: And roughly last in playoff success the last 40 years or so. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586811971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galley Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 My 15-year old daughter plays hockey in Greenville, SC. She is one of the only, if not the ONLY girl in the entire county of 350,00 to play hockey. There will be high school league starting soon, but that will be like one team that represents every school in the county. D'oh! In places like North Dakota, and Minnesota, there are towns of 5,000 that have have had hockey programs for decades. BTW, the Hurricanes are having a great season, as are the Panthers. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586813070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scudworth Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Imo, there shouldn't be hockey teams in places where the winters dont get cold enough to form natural ice. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586813178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayrider Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Also mainly just because im currently living in Houston, i wish they could get a team... 586797275[/snapback] How about Houston or Kansas City getting a team? St Louis is looking for a buyer, Pittsburgh wont survive much longer if there isnt a new arena http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05315/604787.stm http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3438046 Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586813549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Derf Veteran Posted November 15, 2005 Author Veteran Share Posted November 15, 2005 The creation of so many teams is what ruined the NHL, both financially and with it's fanbase.I can't wait for teams to start folding, or at least moving back to Canada. First and foremost, Carolina and Atlanta. 586810403[/snapback] One Atlanta team already moved to Canada. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586813575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayepecks Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 One Atlanta team already moved to Canada. 586813575[/snapback] I thought of that, too. St. Louis to Houston? Houston actually is a pretty good hockey town (along with Seattle), surprisingly, but I think St. Louis fans would be much more supportive... No offense, but Houston fans are band-wagon jumpers. I say this because I lived there, and they only go to games if a team is doing well. It's not a surprise the Oilers became the Titans. Link to comment https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/396553-nhl-carolina-and-atlanta-to-vanish-in-2-years/#findComment-586814529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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